What's new

Match-up Discussion IMO Jade's Honest Matchup Numbers

Pho Cubic

Sérieusement Sabrewulf peut aller en enfer.
I would say the Jade-Smoke match-up is 3-7 at best. Before I continue, I want to say that I'm not pro in any way, shape or form, so if you want to correct me on something, so ahead.

Damage/meter:
To my understanding, match-up charts are based on both characters being played at the highest possible level. When Smoke is played at this level, he can do near 100% combos off of numerous situations (fullscreen off of smoke bomb, off a deep kick, off an anti-air 2/d1, in the corner, etc) as long as he has the meter for it. Jade on the other hand has ~40% meterless combos of a JIP (Jade isn't going to be landing many of those with Smoke's anti-air abilities), mid to high 20% combos off an antiair. This alone makes the match-up bad. Smoke's damage in this game is broken. Even with no meter, Smoke slightly bests Jades damage output midscreen and in the corner. Because of this, Jade is going to have to save meter for breakers, limiting what she can spend meter on.

Positioning (fullscreen/midscreen/upclose):
Jade's obviously pretty helpless at full screen and is forced to dash block smoke bombs to get closer. At 1/4 to 1/2 screen away Jade's footies put her in the best situation, but with smoke away/towards Smoke has more control over positioning in this match than Jade does. If Jade whiffs anything, she can get smoke bombed into massive damage reset combos, while if Smoke whiffs something at midscreen, he will just get a slap on the wrist. Jade can't JIP at smoke at this range because of Smoke's anti-air ability, and Smoke will win air-to-air trades because of jump kick, air grab. Up close, Smoke's pokes and pressure gives him advantage. Smoke can just d3 and d4 all day because if Jade crouch blocks, she opens herself up for b2. If Jade ever tries to cross him over during his pressure, at best she will take ~30%, but if Smoke has meter it's going to hurt. Jade can try to glow out of Smoke's pressure, but she's only wasting precious meter that she needs for breakers. To be honest, if Jade ex-glows Smoke's d1, d3, 2, etc. I don't even know if Jade's 2 and 3 are even fast enough to punish Smoke's attack...they're pretty slow at 14 and 15 frame attacks, respectively. In terms of Jade pressuring Smoke, Jade has holes in her 2 3 f2 and b3 2 string large enough for Smoke to poke out. If Jade uses her glow for pressure, Smoke can just sit there and crouch block. If she throws him, that actually benefits Smoke because Jade just wasted meter that could have been used to break hit resets for a measly 12%, on top of giving Smoke a bit of meter from getting thrown. The real icing on the cake for Smoke is that Jade has small holes (5 frames or less) in all her strings except for 1 2 2. This means if Smoke has X-ray and Jade tries to pressure with any other string, she eats 34%.

Corner:
Let's start this section with Smoke in the corner. Smoke has ex-Smoke towards to escape out of the corner. If Smoke has 2 bars, he can just air teleport out of the corner and break Jade's punish. If Smoke jumps toward Jade and she tries to anti-air 1 him, he can just jump kick throw her into the corner. Jade can of course ex-glow his jump in attack, and I believe if Jade's b2 is spaced properly, there's nothing smoke can do in the air to counter it. If there's space between the two, and Smoke reads that Jade is going to d3/d4, he can teleport out of the corner for free. When Jade gets a corner combo on Smoke, it's a double-edged sword because now Smoke has around 2 bars, and if he catches her, she's dead. Now let's talk about Jade being in the corner. If she glows to escape, Smoke can just use Smoke away to keep her in the corner (albeit at a distance) and Jade just wasted meter. If Jade jumps without ex-glowing, she's dead. If she whiffs anything she's dead. If she blocks low to stop d3/d4 and gets hit by b2, she's dead. If she doesn't block low, she eats all Smoke's d3/d4s and she is constantly at disadvantage. When Smoke combos Jade, Jade has to instantly use her meter to break Smoke's ridiculous damage or she dies. Being in the corner is bad for both characters, but it's much worse for Jade.

Against most Smoke players this may seem like a slight disadvantage for Jade simply because playing Smoke at max level requires not dropping any combos/resets, this is hard enough offline let alone online. But match-up charts are based on the highest level of play. A Smoke player at the highest level will send you into the reset off of virtually anything. With this in mind, I say this match-up is 3-7 at best. Like I said earlier, I'm not a top Smoke player or anything, but I am well aware of what he is capable of.

The Jade-Sektor match-up might be advantage Sektor too.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
I can't take this list serious sorry. If it were mr mileenas, runwaymafia, Espio, bird song.

She wins over subby?? 6-4 over sindel :confused:. 6-4 over noob WTF.


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
It's a personal MU chart, please do tell why you disagree with the numbers.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
It's a personal MU chart, please do tell why you disagree with the numbers.
Jade is forced to approach noob and subby. I'm not going into details I'm not going into details, but from what I see when jade is forced to go after characters she's fucked. Jade does force sindel to approach her, I could see it be slightly in jades favor. Sindel does have options upclose to jade so that's why it's a even 5-5.


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Jade is forced to approach noob and subby. I'm not going into details I'm not going into details, but from what I see when jade is forced to go after characters she's fucked. Jade does force sindel to approach her, I could see it be slightly in jades favor. Sindel does have options upclose to jade so that's why it's a even 5-5.


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
But she isn't. It's very easy for Jade to play in and out against Noob. What does noob have that makes it NOT a 6-4 for Jade? Noobs never make me feel threatened in a matchup...ever. Jade never needs to break a noob combo, and the fact that if he does land ~20 some percent mid screen against her, it is just giving her more meter where she can take ~30 percent.

You need to go into details. You listed a lot of PS3 Jade players, all of whom I respect. Look at the first three letters of the thread title (IMO). No need to get butt hurt. Sindel needs to get in close, and if Jade is playing runaway, all the better.

I have been a firm believer for a very long time that Jade beats sub. I have played the matchup numerous times, and would not mind backing that claim up.

As I said earlier, I have no problem playing anyone who disagrees with numbers who can show me otherwise.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
But she isn't. It's very easy for Jade to play in and out against Noob. What does noob have that makes it NOT a 6-4 for Jade? Noobs never make me feel threatened in a matchup...ever. Jade never needs to break a noob combo, and the fact that if he does land ~20 some percent mid screen against her, it is just giving her more meter where she can take ~30 percent.

You need to go into details. You listed a lot of PS3 Jade players, all of whom I respect. Look at the first three letters of the thread title (IMO). No need to get butt hurt. Sindel needs to get in close, and if Jade is playing runaway, all the better.

I have been a firm believer for a very long time that Jade beats sub. I have played the matchup numerous times, and would not mind backing that claim up.

As I said earlier, I have no problem playing anyone who disagrees with numbers who can show me otherwise.
Would love to play you but I sold my Xbox.


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk
 

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
The really bad ones I see is Jade versus Freddy is 3-7 and Smoke 3-7. Brutally honest numbers Chance especially with Raiden 3-7.

If Jade had her original Up3 restored, her high damage returned among little tweaks I can see some of her 4-6 MUs turn into 5-5 :)
 

HGTV DrFlash44

Quan Cheese!!!
I respect your opinion, but damage isn't a end-all, be-all in terms of MUs. if it was, you would have to pretty much bump all of Cyrax's MUs up by 1. Noob would also take a hit in terms of MUs because he's had the lowest damage output in the game in open space.
and why do you think that cyrax is one of the best characters in the game and noob is one of the worst
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
and why do you think that cyrax is one of the best characters in the game and noob is one of the worst
Cyrax has a lot more tools to his disposal? Great mid hitting strings? ARMOR.

Noob is still good, love Noob Saibot, Cyrax just has a hell of a lot more options and tools.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Jade can punish the blade charge, but with only 8 percent.
emmm not fully true,
jade can punish the type of charge that shouldnt be done, touching to just inside d4 distance,
so that just as bout as useful for her in the MU as being able to glow through the strings baraka's dont use.
(if u try to shadow kick it from any further you'll get neutral ducked followed by a follow up d4/d2 so you dont even get a free check)
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
emmm not fully true,
jade can punish the type of charge that shouldnt be done, touching to just inside d4 distance,
so that just as bout as useful for her in the MU as being able to glow through the strings baraka's dont use.
(if u try to shadow kick it from any further you'll get neutral ducked followed by a follow up d4/d2 so you dont even get a free check)
If you feel it's out of range, she can check with staff grab.

Whats the frames on the good range blade charge?
 
As one of the longest community members to use Jade, I thought I would owe the community my honest and updated matchup numbers for Jade. Feel free to critique, bitch, moan, and submit your input. If you would like elaboration, I shall give it to you.

Baraka: 5-5
Cyber Sub-Zero: 4-6
Cyrax: 4-6
Ermac: 4-6
Freddy: 4-6
Jax: 4-6
Johnny Cage: 4-6
Kabal: 3-7
Kano: 6-4
Kenshi: 2-8
Kitana: 4-6
Kung Lao: 4-6
Liu Kang: 5-5
Mileena: 4-6
Nightwolf: 5-5
Noob Saibot: 6-4
Quan Chi: 5-5
Raiden: 3-7
Reptile: 5-5
Rain: 5-5
Scorpion: 4-6
Sektor: 4-6
Shang Tsung: 5-5
Sheeva: 6-4
Sindel: 6-4
Skarlet: 3-7
Smoke: 4-6
Sonya: 4-6
Stryker: 5-5
Sub-Zero: 6-4
Pretty Good list. My only changes (opinions) would be

Sub Zero to 5-5
Sindel to 5-5
Shang to 4-6 (Jade losing)
Reptile 4-6 (Jade losing)
Noob- 5-5
Lui Kang 4-6 (Jade losing)
Kenshi 1-9
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
If you feel it's out of range, she can check with staff grab.

Whats the frames on the good range blade charge?
staff grab check? you dont even need max range pushback to get that to whiff,
sure it hits mid unlike shadow kick put its also 4 frames(i think) slower, so if hadow kick cant do the job, staffgrab wont either.

its nothing to do with frames why jade cant punish it, its the pushback,
pushback that jade can do very little about,only a select few can punish barakas charge on block.
you could try jump over it, njp on a read(not reaction\0,make it whiff and b2 or even try ex glow if ya feeling like burning meter but on block jade has very little answer to charge
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
staff grab check? you dont even need max range pushback to get that to whiff,
sure it hits mid unlike shadow kick put its also 4 frames(i think) slower, so if hadow kick cant do the job, staffgrab wont either.

its nothing to do with frames why jade cant punish it, its the pushback,
pushback that jade can do very little about,only a select few can punish barakas charge on block.
you could try jump over it, njp on a read(not reaction\0,make it whiff and b2 or even try ex glow if ya feeling like burning meter but on block jade has very little answer to charge
Meh, still doesn't cover for Barakas problems full screen.
 
and why do you think that cyrax is one of the best characters in the game and noob is one of the worst
LBSH, Cyrax does like 50%+ damage with 1 bar anywhere on the screen. Noob only does about 30% mid screen even with meter. His damage is in the corner. They are the most damaging and least damaging characters in the game respectively.

By your logic we would pretty much have to bump all of Cyrax's 5-5's to 6-4's, 6-4's to 7-3's, etc.

Damage is definitely a factor in MUs but not enuff to change MUs IMO.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Meh, still doesn't cover for Barakas problems full screen.
against jade u mean?
not a problem fullscreen, her projectile slow on start up/poor recovery and its not like baraka is going to try trading with spark because of flash,your very unlikely to get damage or win the match playing it there.
jades zoning is piss to get around compared to others baraka has to deal with.
dashing or walking gets him in his footsie range no problem with not even much chip done ,
also as jade as very little to keep him fullscreen or even just out in general and even if the baraka player is getting lazy, ex charge safe against jade so theres that aswell.

btw just to throw it out there seeing as this a MU thread, i have the MU at 6-4 (adv raka)
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
against jade u mean?
not a problem fullscreen, her projectile slow on start up/poor recovery and its not like baraka is going to try trading with spark because of flash,your very unlikely to get damage or win the match playing it there.
jades zoning is piss to get around compared to others baraka has to deal with.
dashing or walking gets him in his footsie range no problem with not even much chip done ,
also as jade as very little to keep him fullscreen or even just out in general and even if the baraka player is getting lazy, ex charge safe against jade so theres that aswell.

btw just to throw it out there seeing as this a MU thread, i have the MU at 6-4 (adv raka)

I just don't see it man. If Baraka wants to spend a bar to get in thats wonderful. Let him waste his meter. Staff slam negates his d4 from midscreen, making him have to start abusing blade charge to get in. If Jade glows at this point mid screen he loses 35 percent. If he respects jades options, she gets b3's and jump ins. I dunno. 5-5 is as far as I would go. The only real baraka experience I am getting lately is with STB Shujinkydinks and his never poses an extreme problem. Baraka is like a stegasaurus tho. Hard to touch, but he is low poke vulnerable, and easy to send back full screen.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
I just don't see it man. If Baraka wants to spend a bar to get in thats wonderful. Let him waste his meter. Staff slam negates his d4 from midscreen, making him have to start abusing blade charge to get in. If Jade glows at this point mid screen he loses 35 percent. If he respects jades options, she gets b3's and jump ins. I dunno. 5-5 is as far as I would go. The only real baraka experience I am getting lately is with STB Shujinkydinks and his never poses an extreme problem. Baraka is like a stegasaurus tho. Hard to touch, but he is low poke vulnerable, and easy to send back full screen.
whoa, whoa whoa there, slowdown.
i said IF baraka player is being LAZY he COULD use ex charge but there no need for it.
slam staff negates d4, dear god no, maybe online it does, its 35 frames, so your not slamming a d4 on reaction (not that u said u could) or if u do it on a read i blade charge on reaction to you leaving the ground or even spin if your already on your way up when d4 starts to catch you on way back down. (so ill just ignore your follow up point of ex glow that jade "makes" baraka"charge)
so its more your slam is negated in the mu that rakas d4,even ex slam not much of a problem for baraka

no offense meant to dink,hes a epic quan but his baraka is not up to his quans standards and has only picked him up again recently.

im not trying to argue that your 5-5 is wrong (even though imo i think it is) just correcting false information you saying like jade being able punish charge,barakas d4 being void and such.
it saddens me when people do that
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
whoa, whoa whoa there, slowdown.
i said IF baraka player is being LAZY he COULD use ex charge but there no need for it.
slam staff negates d4, dear god no, maybe online it does, its 35 frames, so your not slamming a d4 on reaction (not that u said u could) or if u do it on a read i blade charge on reaction to you leaving the ground or even spin if your already on your way up when d4 starts to catch you on way back down. (so ill just ignore your follow up point of ex glow that jade "makes" baraka"charge)
so its more your slam is negated in the mu that rakas d4,even ex slam not much of a problem for baraka

no offense meant to dink,hes a epic quan but his baraka is not up to his quans standards and has only picked him up again recently.

im not trying to argue that your 5-5 is wrong (even though i cleary think it is) just correcting false information you saying like jade being able punish charge,barakas d4 being void and such.
it saddens me when people do that
It's not false information, Jade can punish the charge. Just apparently not the max range charge, but it's never given me much trouble. Barakas d4 does not give jade problems, trust me. Do you have xbox?
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
It's not false information, Jade can punish the charge. Just apparently not the max range charge, but it's never given me much trouble. Barakas d4 does not give jade problems, trust me. Do you have xbox?
ok were going around in circles here and its getting annoying so....
*you said jade can punish blade charge,(she can only punish touching to inside d4,something baraka shouldnt be doing,you were not clear in your discription or just didnt know,either way the full details were not present)
*i did NOT say the max range on is the only one she cant punish it closer than a ma range one that she cant punish,
*you said barakas d4 is negated in the mu meaning his has to charge more,false information
*you said baraka has problems full screen againt jade
*i did not say his d4 gives her problems either

also sorry no i dont, im on psn
 

HGTV DrFlash44

Quan Cheese!!!
Cyrax has a lot more tools to his disposal? Great mid hitting strings? ARMOR.

Noob is still good, love Noob Saibot, Cyrax just has a hell of a lot more options and tools.
1 cyrax's only armor is xray and noob is awful I've played a really good one and he did his best but the character sucks
 

Goldi

Noob
@1man3lettsers, no one is getting bitey. I agree with you. Tan agrees. Chance does not. But he's being nothing short of civil and calm explaining why he disagrees with us.

Like I said earlier, YMMV (your mileage may vary). Depending on who you play, where, who your opponent is, how well both parties know that match up, how often you run it...and so on and so forth. There's just too many variables to get everyone to agree down to the last wee detail. Which is why tier lists and match up charts will never be immaculate.

We don't have to mindlessly agree with each other over everything or anything. It would be kinda creepy if we did actually. But we're discussing things rather civilly I think. Chance has given his reasons why he thinks Jade vs X is whatevs intelligently and snark free. Ignored posts that.... Won't lead to valuable information and agreed to play with anyone who wants to change his mind.

There's no "I'm right, agree with me or you suck" going on here. And there will not be. From anyone. All TYM posters have every right to respectfully disagree with anything.

This forum can get... Emotional. I know, believe me. And I try to gently nip potential drama in the bud. But if I need step in as a mod, I certainly will. No one should ever be shy about posting here for fear of hostility or needlessly harsh criticism.