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I Hate Wavedashing: A Rant And Discussion Starter

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Tekken has "safe" and "uncheckable" movement with its backdash cancelling, side stepping and side walking, and various types of forward movement such as wave dashing and snake dashing. The game is precisely well-liked and well-respected because of its freestyle movement.



If you have the execution, you can cancel the wave dash into any move of your choice, including attacks that crush low attacks.



People are probably referring to fighting games such as Super Turbo, Third Strike, and many of the Tekken games because of their rigorous focus on footsies. The reality is that each fighting game defines its own footsies and hence the term is arbitrary. To use Tekken as an example again, Tekken 7 introduced some 2D characters who have super meter and the ability to jump to create offense, two aspects that have never been associated with traditional Tekken gameplay. Is Tekken 7 suddenly a "nontraditional" fighting game? The vast majority of players in the Tekken community would not make this argument.

You ask a good question, but I caution you about Cherny's threads. Treat them as comedic relief or your drunk uncle's rant at a Christmas gathering.
Yall really dont fuck with cherny lol
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
You can't block when side stepping or side walking and Tekken has moves specifically designed to punish side walking or stepping, often for sizable reward. Korean Backdashing is also only good as a spacing adjuster at a high level, it isn't like MK11 dash chaining with Cetrion where characters literally have to struggle to catch up. Also, the problem is FORWARD MOVING safe uncheckable movement.
The moves "specifically designed to punish side walking or stepping" are called homing moves, which are usually slow at 16 or 17 frames of start up. High level players always move by mini-side stepping and canceling into block, which severely minimizes the threat of a homing attack. The most effective way to track a side-stepping opponent is ironically with forward movement as many of your attacks realign themselves. Could you please stop referencing a game that you obviously know very little about?

As far as Cetrion is concerned, she has the best backdash in the game. She is the exceptional to the rule, not the norm.

Not true. There's still a delay because of the fact you have to either instant crouch cancel, which adds frames, or you have to manually wait for the WS state, which also adds frames. Also let's keep in mind there's 3D movement so forward movement in Tekken isn't as big of a deal. If Tekken were 2D, I'd be calling for wave dashing to also be removed from it regardless of execution barriers etc.
You made the claim that "a wave dash is always beatable by lows". I explained to you that Tekken has moves that crush low attacks. In fact, these moves can be canceled out of the wave dash very easily because of their "u/f + button" input. One of Devil Jin's best moves is u/f+4, a move that crushes low pokes as well as hits crouching opponent. Again, could you please stop referencing a game that you obviously know very little about?

Tekken 7 is definitely a traditional footsies/neutral focused FG you're just making bad faith arguments using straw mans here using it. Even with the 2D characters, the jumping issue is REALLY over exaggerated. It's leagues above anything in MK11 STILL lol.
Tekken 7 has implemented several new gameplay aspects since its release almost five years ago. I concede that Tekken 7 is a superior technical fighting game to Mortal Kombat 11. I think most well-informed players would. However, Tekken 7 has had its own problems that Namco continues to address. I hope NRS does the same with Mortal Kombat 11.

It's M2Dave though, the dude is the longtime comedic relief of the NRS community.
When I trolled these forums back in the day, I did so for my and other's comedic relief. You, on the other hand, seem to consider yourself some sort of intellectual fighting game critique and footsies expert. I am laughing. So is most of the community. NRS must be too. So go on, jester. Give us more.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
When I trolled these forums back in the day, I did so for my and other's comedic relief. You, on the other hand, seem to consider yourself some sort of intellectual fighting game critique and footsies expert. I am laughing. So is most of the community. NRS must be too. So go on, jester. Give us more.
From your views on the pod to this sounds like you and cherny have a similar view of the game. Going back and forth in the forums doesnt really prove much yall should have him replace Brady and bring the pod back.
Also side note everyone in the FGC is laughing at NRS and its player base so that really doesnt mean much fam.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
From your views on the pod to this sounds like you and cherny have a similar view of the game. Going back and forth in the forums doesnt really prove much yall should have him replace Brady and bring the pod back.
Also side note everyone in the FGC is laughing at NRS and its player base so that really doesnt mean much fam.
You really seem to be trying your hardest to hate in every single thread. I don’t know how you could equate the two, since Cherny literally does nothing but make threads to complain, wheras Dave has been espousing a balanced viewpoint for the last few months.

The truth is that most people simply don’t agree on wavedash. But as Cherny said weeks ago, he doesn’t make his threads to have discussions. So it makes it unlikely that he’ll realize how wacky some of his proclamations are.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
You really seem to be trying your hardest to hate in every single thread. I don’t know how you could equate the two, since Cherny literally does nothing but make threads to complain, wheras Dave has been espousing a balanced viewpoint for the last few months.

The truth is that most people simply don’t agree on wavedash. But as Cherny said weeks ago, he doesn’t make his threads to have discussions. So it makes it unlikely that he’ll realize how wacky some of his proclamations are.
I have no idea what your talking about crimson. I havent hated on anything in fact I legit only comment when people saythings that make little to no sense. Like seriously I've listen to every pod they have done Dave has In fact echoed some of the shit Cherney has said it might not be the same but its within the realm of thought. I would like to get them paired up In the pod for community betterment how is that hating?? You like to peak through the forums and make little comments that for real dont involve you. If I wanted your opinion I would have asked for it.
 

Icefyre

Shadows
I have no idea what your talking about crimson. I havent hated on anything in fact I legit only comment when people saythings that make little to no sense. Like seriously I've listen to every pod they have done Dave has In fact echoed some of the shit Cherney has said it might not be the same but its within the realm of thought. I would like to get them paired up In the pod for community betterment how is that hating?? You like to peak through the forums and make little comments that for real dont involve you. If I wanted your opinion I would have asked for it.
Nobody asked for your opinions either when you comment on "things that make little to no sense". I'm not sure what you're on about, this is a forum. Most things people comment on don't "involve" them either. Better yet, I asked for Cherny's opinion earlier in this thread and got ignored, so that clearly doesn't amount to much anyway. Why are we pretending that anybody waits until they're asked for their opinion on a forum, of all things?

Oh sorry, nobody asked for my opinion either.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Nobody asked for your opinions either when you comment on "things that make little to no sense". I'm not sure what you're on about, this is a forum. Most things people comment on don't "involve" them either. Better yet, I asked for Cherny's opinion earlier in this thread and got ignored, so that clearly doesn't amount to much anyway. Why are we pretending that anybody waits until they're asked for their opinion on a forum, of all things?

Oh sorry, nobody asked for my opinion either.
I approve of this message, a taste of my own posin well done king.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I have no idea what your talking about crimson. I havent hated on anything in fact I legit only comment when people saythings that make little to no sense. Like seriously I've listen to every pod they have done Dave has In fact echoed some of the shit Cherney has said it might not be the same but its within the realm of thought. I would like to get them paired up In the pod for community betterment how is that hating?? You like to peak through the forums and make little comments that for real dont involve you. If I wanted your opinion I would have asked for it.
Some gameplay aspects such as fatal blows, anti-aerial attacks, and inconsistent hitboxes can change if NRS want them to change. Certain other gameplay aspects such as the poking meta, the variation system, and the revival of traditional character archetypes are highly unlikely to change given the fact they are carved into the game's core design. The game is also approaching its first year anniversary so changes that fundamentally alter the meta are not likely to be implemented. So what is the point of harping on and creating the same threads about the same topics?

I enjoy Mortal Kombat 11 for what it is. If I want to play a technical fighting game, I play Tekken 7. If I want to play something in between, I play Street Fighter 5.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Some gameplay aspects such as fatal blows, anti-aerial attacks, and inconsistent hitboxes can change if NRS want them to change. Certain other gameplay aspects such as the poking meta, the variation system, and the revival of traditional character archetypes are highly unlikely to change given the fact they are carved into the game's core design. The game is also approaching its first year anniversary so changes that fundamentally alter the meta are not likely to be implemented. So what is the point of harping on and creating the same threads about the same topics?

I enjoy Mortal Kombat 11 for what it is. If I want to play a technical fighting game, I play Tekken 7. If I want to play something in between, I play Street Fighter 5.
I think for me personally mk is the only franchise I really can keep up with on a psuedo competitive lvl. The game doesnt have to change at all, I offered an opinion about it but it seems like if you don't like something your either a scrub or a hater. Your 100% right that you should play what you like not change what you hate, but at some point the community has to have a legit conversation about what problems the game even has, some people I wont mention think the game is a flawless masterpiece until those people Go away people like cherny will continue the game sucks threads. It's a cycle of self defeat
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think for me personally mk is the only franchise I really can keep up with on a psuedo competitive lvl. The game doesnt have to change at all, I offered an opinion about it but it seems like if you don't like something your either a scrub or a hater. Your 100% right that you should play what you like not change what you hate, but at some point the community has to have a legit conversation about what problems the game even has, some people I wont mention think the game is flawless masterpiece until those people Go away people like cherny will continue the game sucks threads. It's a cycle of self defeat
I think it's pretty silly to blame other people for Cherny constantly making questionable threads. That's his choice and his alone.

P.S. Not everybody thinks the game is a flawless, but some of us have learned how to give feedback constructively on things that are actually reasonable given the meta, rather than ranting endlessly on things that are never going to change. Trying to make MK11 into some other game at the ground level is just a waste of time.

Machinegunning threads is also disrespectful to all the people who do enjoy the game, and, as you can see from this thread, think the movement etc. is perfectly fine.
 
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ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
I think it's pretty silly to blame other people for Cherny constantly making questionable threads. That's his choice and his alone.

P.S. Not everybody thinks the game is a flawless, but some of us have learned how to give feedback constructively on things that are actually reasonable given the meta, rather than ranting endlessly on things that are never going to change. Trying to make MK11 into some other game at the ground level is just a waste of time.

Machinegunning threads is also disrespectful to all the people who do enjoy the game, and, as you can see from this thread, think the movement etc. is perfectly fine.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I hate to be the one who brings this up to crimson but no one is sitting here making threads about the games greatness, no one is makin threads about how its movement is awesome no one is making threads about anything that you would consider positive. I'm in here every day and if it wasnt for cokano I wouldnt even know people fuck with the game like that.
You talk like people are this forum are clamoring to be all for the game, but if it wasnt for you and the mods this place would be nothing but mk haters. I fucking love mk I even bang with 11 but your straight shillness just runs me and I'm sure a bunch of people the wrong way we get you like the game but stop framing what can and cant be done how you see it. Is NRS wanted to they could make armor on everything right now then what.
But it is what it is I suppose.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I hate to be the one who brings this up to crimson but no one is sitting here making threads about the games greatness, no one is makin threads about how its movement is awesome no one is making threads about anything that you would consider positive. I'm in here every day and if it wasnt for cokano I wouldnt even know people fuck with the game like that.
You talk like people are this forum are clamoring to be all for the game, but if it wasnt for you and the mods this place would be nothing but mk haters. I fucking love mk I even bang with 11 but your straight shillness just runs me and I'm sure a bunch of people the wrong way we get you like the game but stop framing what can and cant be done how you see it.
Really. There was a very positive thread made like 3 days ago, the day after this thread was made:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/after-playing-mk11-for-a-bit-i-have-got-something-to-say.72531/

You guys are trying really hard to force this to to be the case, and making yourselves look really bad in the process. The truth is that not everyone agrees with you.

There's another newer thread about MK being the 5th highest selling game of any type last year, and you're in that thread as well trying to spin it into a negative somehow. It's not like we don't see this.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Really. There was a very positive thread made like 3 days ago, the day after this thread was made:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/after-playing-mk11-for-a-bit-i-have-got-something-to-say.72531/

You guys are trying really hard to force this to to be the case, and making yourselves look really bad in the process. The truth is that not everyone agrees with you.

There's another recent thread about MK being the 5th highest selling game of any type last year, and you're in that thread as well trying to spin it into a negative somehow. It's not like we don't see this.
stop mischaracterizing my statements you believe whatever fits your little narratives your a bad person man and it sucks you hold any authority anywhere.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
but at some point the community has to have a legit conversation about what problems the game even has...
The problems are well-documented to say the least. In fact, the problems and the solutions are all ever people talk about on social media, including on this website.

If you give your feedback constructively, as Crimson mentioned, and also respectfully, NRS and the community will probably take you seriously. If, however, you call the game trash and attack the developers as Cherny does, you eventually become a meme.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I think it's pretty silly to blame other people for Cherny constantly making questionable threads. That's his choice and his alone.

P.S. Not everybody thinks the game is a flawless, but some of us have learned how to give feedback constructively on things that are actually reasonable given the meta, rather than ranting endlessly on things that are never going to change. Trying to make MK11 into some other game at the ground level is just a waste of time.

Machinegunning threads is also disrespectful to all the people who do enjoy the game, and, as you can see from this thread, think the movement etc. is perfectly fine.
"P.S. Not everybody thinks the game is a flawless, but some of us have learned how to give feedback constructively on things that are actually reasonable given the meta, rather than ranting endlessly on things that are never going to change. Trying to make MK11 into some other game at the ground level is just a waste of time."

The problem is here Crimson, people keep redrawing this line to define what's constructive and what is not. Eventually, with this community, it really does come down to you just aren't allowed to criticize the game.

My complaints with this game are valid, I don't essentially think the things I ask for are unrealistic except in an environment where complicity is the norm. A lot of people would like a new meta. I don't know ANYBODY who full on loves this game and only wants minor changes made to it. I'm 100% sure if a comprehensive survey were to be taken, you'd find the majority hate or are underwhelmed by this game. I talked with Wonderchef recently about this and him and I both agree MK11 is BAR NONE the most straight up disliked game if not the game that generates the most apathy since MK9. You can go back through TYM archives and see the sheer frequency of complaints or expression of not feeling the game are at an all time high.

This game lacks depth, it's too hard read focused, it's movement combined with it's basic character designs makes everyone essentially play the exact same and if you don't play that meta you suck. Even if you think the game is "fine", it's hard to find anybody who thinks the game is FUN, INTERESTING, FEELS LIKE IT REWARDS THEIR TIME INVESTED. When even Dragon is complaining, the guy who never complains, something about the game is off.

It's not even at this point about whether the game is balanced I guess. It's balanced for BAD REASONS. Boring reasons, and it's incredibly dismissive to simply write off the people who are dissatisfied with it and want what they feel like they should've gotten. At some point you're just dunking on people for being disappointed, and how is that any more productive than the screaming into the void you guys are always insisting the constructive criticism is?
 
if it wasnt for you and the mods this place would be nothing but mk haters.
your a bad person man and it sucks you hold any authority anywhere.
I really don't understand where making sensible posts = Crimson is a shill or a bad person. How do you even arrive to that conclusion?
Seriously, what am I missing here?

Eventually, with this community, it really does come down to you just aren't allowed to criticize the game.
I keep seeing this mentioned on TYM and while I've only been here for a little while I see too disproportionate an amount of people hating on this game for such a statement to be true.
 
I dont think Crimson is a shill I have known Crimson for like 7 years. The man has been critical of the MK games in the past and im sure he has his own list of gripes concerning MK11. I think that for the most part your argument about wavedashing is wrong. Mk9 had a similar dash system and without it alot of characters would never have been able to advance in that game. Can you imagine trying to get in on Cetrion with no wave dash or teleport? It would be horrendous. I also don;t think that anyone would care so much about you complaining about the game if you game if you actually gave something to the community that wasnt negative.

Idk if you contribute in positive ways but in the scorpion forum you have multiple complaint threads. I dont think my character is strong in MK11 or that he excels in the things he should excel in but I also try to find ways to fix those issues rather than complain about them. You also never seem to want to discuss the issue. Just proclaim it as a universal truth. That rubs ppl the wrong way. It makes ppl kinda go "if you dont like it so much why do you keep playing it?"
 

Marlow

Champion
This game lacks depth, it's too hard read focused, it's movement combined with it's basic character designs makes everyone essentially play the exact same and if you don't play that meta you suck. Even if you think the game is "fine", it's hard to find anybody who thinks the game is FUN, INTERESTING, FEELS LIKE IT REWARDS THEIR TIME INVESTED. When even Dragon is complaining, the guy who never complains, something about the game is off.

I just find it hard to take statements like that too seriously because it's basically the same subjective statement that people who dislike any new game always make. Pretty much this exact sentiment was expressed about SF3, SFIV, SFV, MKX, Injustice 2, new seasons of KI, and now MK11. I'm pretty sure if I went on discussion boards for Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken, and other games I'd find similar statements being made whenever a new game comes out. I guarantee when/if Injustice 3 comes out, or MK12 comes out we're going to hear the exact same things said again.

Not that a new game is above criticism, but I think it's important to try and determine if the criticism is actually an issue with the game, or just that the game doesn't exactly play how you'd like it to. I feel like that's what is going on with the Wave Dashing. I don't think it breaks footsies, I just think it means that footsies in MK12 are played differently.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I just find it hard to take statements like that too seriously because it's basically the same subjective statement that people who dislike any new game always make. Pretty much this exact sentiment was expressed about SF3, SFIV, SFV, MKX, Injustice 2, new seasons of KI, and now MK11. I'm pretty sure if I went on discussion boards for Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken, and other games I'd find similar statements being made whenever a new game comes out. I guarantee when/if Injustice 3 comes out, or MK12 comes out we're going to hear the exact same things said again.

Not that a new game is above criticism, but I think it's important to try and determine if the criticism is actually an issue with the game, or just that the game doesn't exactly play how you'd like it to. I feel like that's what is going on with the Wave Dashing. I don't think it breaks footsies, I just think it means that footsies in MK12 are played differently.
This is NRS only behavior from my observation and I've been involved in various online FGC communities since 2005 or so.

Which annoys me when people make bad faith "everyone said this about this game and that game". People would either be wrong or right about those statements, you'd have to look at the game and see that that's true. People said SF4 lacked footsies cause of focus attacks but that was horseshit. People said Injustice 2 lacked footsies because of a zoning game that was REALLY overrated at the highest level. I mean I get what I said is subjective for sure, but I still have the right to demand that it change in a way that I would like. It's kind of silly to say someone can't ask for that or imply they can't or shouldn't.
 
I just find it hard to take statements like that too seriously because it's basically the same subjective statement that people who dislike any new game always make. Pretty much this exact sentiment was expressed about SF3, SFIV, SFV, MKX, Injustice 2, new seasons of KI, and now MK11. I'm pretty sure if I went on discussion boards for Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Tekken, and other games I'd find similar statements being made whenever a new game comes out. I guarantee when/if Injustice 3 comes out, or MK12 comes out we're going to hear the exact same things said again.

Not that a new game is above criticism, but I think it's important to try and determine if the criticism is actually an issue with the game, or just that the game doesn't exactly play how you'd like it to. I feel like that's what is going on with the Wave Dashing. I don't think it breaks footsies, I just think it means that footsies in MK12 are played differently.
Current game bad.
Previous game good.

Every fucking time.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Your being negative from day 1, if this site was full of ppl like you this site would have been dead by now.
I have never said anything that wasnt true, I have never disporportinally debased the game at times I have been hyperbolic yes but never never have I grossly mischaracterized someone's statements on here to make them appear in a certain light. TYM at times doesnt seem like a real place it's the internet effect where people show their true colors because there not really real in actual life.
Again to make my positions totally clear. Mk11 is for casuals I personally like the game overall I'm preaty low tier and meat and potatoes of the game are struggle bus with minor adjustments it couldbe back on top, NRS never addresses anything that's annoying. This is all I have ever said since day 1 to put it any other way defamatory and irresponsible but againit's the internet so whatever.