Question - Outlaw How good is Erron Black still?

[Bomborge]

I Feel hes still top 10 for sure. He still has tick throws off f12, 11, 11b3, 21122 and all his pokes. But he has also has gaps when cancelling to sand grenade/toss off f13, f12 and 21122 unless its the last hit of that string. His mixups are amazing with the overhead which has great range, his lows and the command throw. Along to add with that, his pressure off knockdown is crazy especially with stabs hit advantage. While the nerfs did affect him, its not bad enough that hes no longer still a solid character.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Erron Black is the Smoke of MKX

Except that he struggles (from mild to really troubling) with characters that:

-are better in the neutral (D'vorah, KJ)
-Zone (variably, including Shinnok, Kitana, GM Sub, Full-Auto Jacqui)
-have better frames or mixups from normals (LK, Cassie)

Notes on why he isn't top 10:
-The first hit of 21122 hits high, and frequently the second hit whiffs (might be character specific?).
-His damage is meh. For two bars midscreen he barely breaks 40%.
-Command Grab has very close inputs to Tarkatan Stab. Input Stab by accident and it's a punish. Normally I wouldn't even write this sort of thing down were it not so commonplace.

-He isn't ducking on the first frames of Slide.
-EXSand is inconsistent as an AA.
-negative 10 frames for landing a Throw.
-counter-zoning with Sand Grenade is nigh-hopeless in certain MUs.

His oki is fantastic and f13 is amazing (catching backdashes for a start), builds good meter + pressure with 21122.

But I am capable of thinking of 10 characters overall better than Erron Black.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Except that he struggles (from mild to really troubling) with characters that:

-are better in the neutral (D'vorah, KJ)
-Zone (variably, including Shinnok, Kitana, GM Sub, Full-Auto Jacqui)
-have better frames or mixups from normals (LK, Cassie)

Notes on why he isn't top 10:
-The first hit of 21122 hits high, and frequently the second hit whiffs (might be character specific?).
-His damage is meh. For two bars midscreen he barely breaks 40%.
-Command Grab has very close inputs to Tarkatan Stab. Input Stab by accident and it's a punish. Normally I wouldn't even write this sort of thing down were it not so commonplace.

-He isn't ducking on the first frames of Slide.
-EXSand is inconsistent as an AA.
-negative 10 frames for landing a Throw.
-counter-zoning with Sand Grenade is nigh-hopeless in certain MUs.

His oki is fantastic and f13 is amazing (catching backdashes for a start), builds good meter + pressure with 21122.

But I am capable of thinking of 10 characters overall better than Erron Black.

His damage is more than solid. Around 35% meterless midscreen off of a safe 50/50 (40% for a bar) and around 38% in the corner (43% for a bar). In Marksman it's even higher in the corner.

I don't want to sound like a jerk but that's more of a 'you' thing.

EX Slide is still a good counter-zoning tool.

Try using EX Tarkatan Stab.

Use Marksman.

He's like 10-8 in my books. Good pressure, safe 50/50s, good damage, an armoured launcher, a good neutral, and fairly good counter-zoning. I couldn't ask for more.

Buff Erron.

 

[THTB]

-Command Grab has very close inputs to Tarkatan Stab. Input Stab by accident and it's a punish. Normally I wouldn't even write this sort of thing down were it not so commonplace.

I almost never see this happen when my brother plays with Erron. Usually he either gets command throw, or nothing.

 

[InFlames]

-negative 10 frames for landing a Throw.

His throw is punishable on hit?

 

[LucaTheRipper]

Notes on why he isn't top 10:
-The first hit of 21122 hits high, and frequently the second hit whiffs (might be character specific?).
-His damage is meh. For two bars midscreen he barely breaks 40%.

Almost all characters hit high with the 1 or 2 inputs, the whiff must be a bug or something
So what? Takeda easily breaks 40% midscreen with one bar and look how top 5 he is...

 

[Dangerzone1103]

If played properly, he's pretty fricken good. I rarely play him but have in the past.. Like the person said earlier, he's not good in the air and I often use Kitana if I happen to play someone who is good with him.

 

[21122]

I almost never see this happen when my brother plays with Erron. Usually he either gets command throw, or nothing.

Happens to me time to time online, cost me the match a few times lol.

 

[BaHONK_Obamer]

Well, I am fairly new to this site but not to MK, so please forgive me if I don't do this correctly. I got MKX about mid May and my character of choice is obviously Erron Black. I have seen Sonic Fox play with him and he is the best with this character and the main reason why I started using him. Now I've seen Erron Black get nerfed with his command grab now being -2 on hit, you can't cancel D3 into it anymore, and since then people have found holes in his game. Especially his F1, 3 string being not so safe even with ex sand grenade. So as the title asks, how good is this character still and has he been unfairly nerfed? Where would you place him on a tier list? Is he a great character or does Sonic Fox make the character great?

still top 10 but it depends how you use him, do you like his overall game play? or like to spam 50/50s anywhere on the screen? if the second choice was your answer go with covert ops sonya she is way more ridiculous now than erron black ever was.

 

[NoobSaibot]

Was literally just about to type the exact same thing.

He's the guy that, tier placements or MU experience be damned, if you run into one that's backed by an above average tier player, you better not fucking miss a beat.[/QUOTbeat]

Was literally just about to type the exact same thing.

He's the guy that, tier placements or MU experience be damned, if you run into one that's backed by an above average tier player, you better not fucking miss a beat.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Everyone thinks I mean that he has the same tools and similar playstyle but you pretty much summed up what I mean.

 

[D4G]

Outlaw is low top 10 (7-10)

Marksman is Mid Tier

Gunslinger is ass.

 

[cambros22]

Sounds like people struggle when they play someone who has a general understanding of the matchup. I believe I play a good Erron Black. A lot of the matches I lose have more to do with unfamiliarity with matchups, not E.B's weakness. He is high execution and is best played by someone who is above average in skill. Eventually every matchup will be learned, so people need to get more intimate with their characters and matchups.You will find that most of the weaknesses are in your understanding of whats going on in match, and not in character flaws.

I credit all my success to being a shazam main.
Lately I have been playing sub-par. Mostly because I dont feel like focusing so I play gunslinger and mess around. I actually like the variation more than the other two.

 

[NoobSaibot]

Reads and guesses are not entirely different at all, but I don't feel like trying to explain that if you don't already understand it. I am not downplaying at all - the 21122 string is extremely strong, but it can be dealt with and punished hard and its obvious that you just don't know how to. You just keep complaining about the only stand out aspect of EB's game, 21122, while ignoring the glaring holes in his game and the fact that a lot of other characters do a lot of the same things that he does but better. EB is probably top 10, but definitely not safely top 5 as you say.

btw, I do in fact play Kano, and there's a lot Kano can do in the EB matchup. Its clear to me that the EB you play is just straight up better than you, no shame in that. Might help if you actually learned how to punish 21122 though, which Kano can do in a bunch of ways.

Just out of curiosity what EB variation are you playing? Also if you'd like I'd like to do some matches to diversify my EB opponent pool. I'm on Psn if your interested

 

[NoobSaibot]

Just out of curiosity what EB variation are you playing? Also if you'd like I'd like to do some matches to diversify my EB opponent pool. I'm on Psn if your interested

Standing offer for other EB mains as well. my Psn is JP_THUNDA

 

[wsj515]

Just out of curiosity what EB variation are you playing? Also if you'd like I'd like to do some matches to diversify my EB opponent pool. I'm on Psn if your interested

I play all variations but I main Marksman, and I would have liked to do some matches but I'm on X1

 

[21122]

Standing offer for other EB mains as well. my Psn is JP_THUNDA

My psn is: fiendbusa!

 

[Zoidberg747]

Except that he struggles (from mild to really troubling) with characters that:

-are better in the neutral (D'vorah, KJ)
-Zone (variably, including Shinnok, Kitana, GM Sub, Full-Auto Jacqui)
-have better frames or mixups from normals (LK, Cassie)

Notes on why he isn't top 10:
-The first hit of 21122 hits high, and frequently the second hit whiffs (might be character specific?).
-His damage is meh. For two bars midscreen he barely breaks 40%.
-Command Grab has very close inputs to Tarkatan Stab. Input Stab by accident and it's a punish. Normally I wouldn't even write this sort of thing down were it not so commonplace.

-He isn't ducking on the first frames of Slide.
-EXSand is inconsistent as an AA.
-negative 10 frames for landing a Throw.
-counter-zoning with Sand Grenade is nigh-hopeless in certain MUs.

His oki is fantastic and f13 is amazing (catching backdashes for a start), builds good meter + pressure with 21122.

But I am capable of thinking of 10 characters overall better than Erron Black.

He doesn't struggle with zoning at all, he can slide under most projectiles including Jacquis, Kitanas, and Subs(Subs ice clone plus iceball tactic doesnt even work on Erron because of the slide).

His damage is above average, not many characters can even get 30% meterless but he gets it pretty easily and thats not including chip/DoT with the sword and caltrops. He also has amazing corner carry which is where he gets most of his damage anyway.

This is an input error on your part. We have a couple of pocket Erron Blacks in my local scene and they all get command grab consistently, its not that hard with practice.

If you time the slide right it doesnt matter that he isnt ducking the first few frames. It has armor anyway so taking one hit wont hurt him.

Sonic Fox regularly anti-airs with standing 1, d1, low profiling etc. It definitely takes more spatial awareness and good reactions but it definitely isn't impossible.

REO and SonicFox counter-zone with one of his strings quite effectively(I wanna say 3,2 but I cant remember. He kicks the gun and shoots a bullet at them.). That + sand grenade beats most zoning.

EB isnt top 2 like people originally thought but he is still definitely top 10. And even if you dont think he is, I doubt you could argue that he cant win a major by himself, which means hes in a good spot.

 

[NoobSaibot]

My psn is: fiendbusa!

Sounds good I'll add you when I get home from work. Fair warning if my land line rings it cuts my internet out for some reason. Working on getting that fixed though

 

[cambros22]

He doesn't struggle with zoning at all, he can slide under most projectiles including Jacquis, Kitanas, and Subs(Subs ice clone plus iceball tactic doesnt even work on Erron because of the slide).

His damage is above average, not many characters can even get 30% meterless but he gets it pretty easily and thats not including chip/DoT with the sword and caltrops. He also has amazing corner carry which is where he gets most of his damage anyway.

This is an input error on your part. We have a couple of pocket Erron Blacks in my local scene and they all get command grab consistently, its not that hard with practice.

If you time the slide right it doesnt matter that he isnt ducking the first few frames. It has armor anyway so taking one hit wont hurt him.

Sonic Fox regularly anti-airs with standing 1, d1, low profiling etc. It definitely takes more spatial awareness and good reactions but it definitely isn't impossible.

REO and SonicFox counter-zone with one of his strings quite effectively(I wanna say 3,2 but I cant remember. He kicks the gun and shoots a bullet at them.). That + sand grenade beats most zoning.

EB isnt top 2 like people originally thought but he is still definitely top 10. And even if you dont think he is, I doubt you could argue that he cant win a major by himself, which means hes in a good spot.

Everything I wanted to say but couldn't word it right. Thanks

 

[cambros22]

Standing offer for other EB mains as well. my Psn is JP_THUNDA

You want erron black matchup experience? Or do you plan erron black and want the mirror match exp.
you can add me, my tag is on my profile. I try to get on here or there. Lately I have been tied up with Witcher 3

 

[SaJa]

He doesn't struggle with zoning at all, he can slide under most projectiles including Jacquis, Kitanas, and Subs(Subs ice clone plus iceball tactic doesnt even work on Erron because of the slide).

Are you serious ? You know that the slide is high on half the way right ? Try to slide under jaqui's zoning on reaction dude before saying such a thing t.t

Most of the time, Erron can outzone most of character at fullscreen (bf3), but past this, you will have trouble.

 

[wsj515]

If you time the slide right it doesnt matter that he isnt ducking the first few frames. It has armor anyway so taking one hit wont hurt him.

Sonic Fox regularly anti-airs with standing 1, d1, low profiling etc. It definitely takes more spatial awareness and good reactions but it definitely isn't impossible.

REO and SonicFox counter-zone with one of his strings quite effectively(I wanna say 3,2 but I cant remember. He kicks the gun and shoots a bullet at them.). That + sand grenade beats most zoning.

These are pretty generous (some kinda egregious) statements. The non-ducking startup is waaay more of a factor than you say, and if you are armoring a projectile during the non-ducking phase, the zoning opponent often has time to block the slide. Slide also loses its armor towards the end of the slide.

3,2 is a horrible zoning tool, and is only used in outlaw because thats all he has besides grenade. Seriously, any idiot can see the 3 coming out at full screen and block/punish accordingly. This isn't such a big issue for marksman and gunslinger, and in a lot of match ups grenade is just fine for outlaw, but don't pretend that 3,2 is anything other than something to throw in maybe once a match.

1/d1 are also really not very good AA's, and more often than not rely on your opponent messing up spacing their jump in the first place, and in that case you could probably just have walked backwards/run forwards then trip guard, which any character can do so you can't really chalk that up as something beneficial for EB.

Not saying he isn't top ten, I think he's right within the cutoff, but you are pegging a lot of things up as positives when they are really either mediocre or worse than others in the cast.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Are you serious ? You know that the slide is high on half the way right ? Try to slide under jaqui's zoning on reaction dude before saying such a thing t.t

Most of the time, Erron can outzone most of character at fullscreen (bf3), but past this, you will have trouble.

Its all about the timing. If you wait until she finishes one round of gunshots you should be able to slide and make the next set of gunshots whiff. If she EXs the gunshots the slide will armor through the rocket. That's what I see from our local Erron Black, so thats what I assumed he could do.

 

[InFlames]

32 is not a good counter zoning tool lol

 

[SaJa]

Its all about the timing. If you wait until she finishes one round of gunshots you should be able to slide and make the next set of gunshots whiff. If she EXs the gunshots the slide will armor through the rocket. That's what I see from our local Erron Black, so thats what I assumed he could do.

Depends on many things : distance, timing, zoning. But overall, you can't really slide against zoning, especially on reaction. Not viable at all.