Question - Outlaw How good is Erron Black still?

[Zoidberg747]

These are pretty generous (some kinda egregious) statements. The non-ducking startup is waaay more of a factor than you say, and if you are armoring a projectile during the non-ducking phase, the zoning opponent often has time to block the slide. Slide also loses its armor towards the end of the slide.

3,2 is a horrible zoning tool, and is only used in outlaw because thats all he has besides grenade. Seriously, any idiot can see the 3 coming out at full screen and block/punish accordingly. This isn't such a big issue for marksman and gunslinger, and in a lot of match ups grenade is just fine for outlaw, but don't pretend that 3,2 is anything other than something to throw in maybe once a match.

1/d1 are also really not very good AA's, and more often than not rely on your opponent messing up spacing their jump in the first place, and in that case you could probably just have walked backwards/run forwards then trip guard, which any character can do so you can't really chalk that up as something beneficial for EB.

Not saying he isn't top ten, I think he's right within the cutoff, but you are pegging a lot of things up as positives when they are really either mediocre or worse than others in the cast.

Note: I am talking purely about Outlaw. I do not know much about the other variations but they arent the best ones so I dont consider them when determining viability.

I'll concede I didnt realize he was high for that long during armored slide. I could see how that could be an issue in certain MUs.

Go watch REO play Erron Black and youll see how 3,2 is used. Im not saying its good but if it forces them to block then that interrupts their zoning which is the point. Plus it trades a lot of the time and from what I saw traded favorably. It isnt a good string per se, but it does have one good use, counter-zoning.

Again, go watch SonicFox or REO play EB. They AA with 1/d1 a lot. Yes the opponent can start to JIK if they are smart but that forces them to at least think instead of jump in punching like crazy. The way AAs in this game work you wont be able to AA 100% of the time, but you at least have the tools to do it more often than not(if your spacing is good, that is). Its difficult for sure but is possible at the highest level of play. Im not saying his AA is better than most of the cast at all, in fact he is where most of the cast are: they don't have good AA moves so are forced to use spacing/trip guarding and 1/d1.

I wasn't saying those things were positives necessarily. I was pointing out that there are ways to get around the issues he said EB had, although in some cases it takes more work than some of the cast.

 

[cambros22]

These are pretty generous (some kinda egregious) statements. The non-ducking startup is waaay more of a factor than you say, and if you are armoring a projectile during the non-ducking phase, the zoning opponent often has time to block the slide. Slide also loses its armor towards the end of the slide.

3,2 is a horrible zoning tool, and is only used in outlaw because thats all he has besides grenade. Seriously, any idiot can see the 3 coming out at full screen and block/punish accordingly. This isn't such a big issue for marksman and gunslinger, and in a lot of match ups grenade is just fine for outlaw, but don't pretend that 3,2 is anything other than something to throw in maybe once a match.

1/d1 are also really not very good AA's, and more often than not rely on your opponent messing up spacing their jump in the first place, and in that case you could probably just have walked backwards/run forwards then trip guard, which any character can do so you can't really chalk that up as something beneficial for EB.

Not saying he isn't top ten, I think he's right within the cutoff, but you are pegging a lot of things up as positives when they are really either mediocre or worse than others in the cast.

You armor slide when you know the opponent is commited to zoning or pressure effectvly catching them in the animation not after they have finished. Trying to react slide isnt that great because its like 16 frames on startup if im not mistaken. I only reaction slide when I want to AA an empty jump and the spacing is right.

3,2 isnt a zoning tool per say. more like Anti-zoning and pace control. If your throwing that shit out all the time, its no wonder people are blocking it and punishing. I tend to use it when I know my opponent is respecting me in neutral. If your full screen I dont know many characters that can punish, especially after the hit stun you take on block.

AA in general isnt that good in the game. I am working on my AA 1/d1 so I can get used to it. Its not the greatest I agree, but its something and its better than being a sitting duck waiting to block. Thats the part practice is in order.

I feel a lot of the issues your talking about are valid however, are solved by using the tools at the right times and or spacing. Yes I believe he is within the cutoff of top ten as well but I also know that E.B isn't the easiest player for people to pick up and use efficiently from what ive seen. I find in general that the issues erron black mains are having usually have less to do with his kit, and more with their overall level of play.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I couldn't have put it better myself. Everyone thinks I mean that he has the same tools and similar playstyle but you pretty much summed up what I mean.

What makes this game most interesting to me - and the main reason why I've had no major objections to the patches thus far - is that the lines between whatever tiers or placements there would be between the characters are almost razor thin, especially compared to MK9 - where even there the debates could still be had. Most people wouldn't have put Ermac, or Smoke, or Kang, etc, above Top 10 on their most viable day...but if someone like a K-Frog or a xSmokex or an xBladez showed up at your tournament, you knew there was a pretty decent chance they could walk out the winner, tiers or frames or NDC's be damned. Other than a few tragic cases (poor Sheeva ), on a long enough timeline it didn't matter where the character landed on the list; all that mattered was that they couldnt be written off or overlooked.
And in the case of MKX, the degrees of dirt and differences in viability are growing ever smaller. The mark of a balanced fighter is when you reach the point that EVERY character can be a threat.

(Also: I still firmly believe Ermac was at least Top 10 in MK9.)

 

[NoobSaibot]

I play all variations but I main Marksman, and I would have liked to do some matches but I'm on X1

That's a shame, would've liked to get some experience against marksman the only variation I consistently fight is outlaw.

 

[NoobSaibot]

You want erron black matchup experience? Or do you plan erron black and want the mirror match exp.
you can add me, my tag is on my profile. I try to get on here or there. Lately I have been tied up with Witcher 3

Matchup experience against him, I main Kano (Cutthroat, and Cyber) but I'm trying to pump as much time into Predator as I can.

 

[cambros22]

Matchup experience against him, I main Kano (Cutthroat, and Cyber) but I'm trying to pump as much time into Predator as I can.

I added you on ps4. When I get home ill try to run some matches with you. After seeing your GT, im pretty sure I played against you earlier this week if not last week. Either way, Im looking forward to some good matches.

Ive been playing gunslinger exclusively for a while so I need to brush up on my marksman and outlaw.

 

[NoobSaibot]

I added you on ps4. When I get home ill try to run some matches with you. After seeing your GT, im pretty sure I played against you earlier this week if not last week. Either way, Im looking forward to some good matches.

Ive been playing gunslinger exclusively for a while so I need to brush up on my marksman and outlaw.

Sounds good mam, just message me if you see that I'm on. If I don't respond I'm probably just away from ps4. Fair warning though my internet is pretty hit or miss

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

Outlaw is low top 10 (7-10)

Marksman is Mid Tier

Gunslinger is ass.

this ( maybe Marksman a little higher and outlaw as high as 6)

 

[wsj515]

You armor slide when you know the opponent is commited to zoning or pressure effectvly catching them in the animation not after they have finished. Trying to react slide isnt that great because its like 16 frames on startup if im not mistaken. I only reaction slide when I want to AA an empty jump and the spacing is right.

3,2 isnt a zoning tool per say. more like Anti-zoning and pace control. If your throwing that shit out all the time, its no wonder people are blocking it and punishing. I tend to use it when I know my opponent is respecting me in neutral. If your full screen I dont know many characters that can punish, especially after the hit stun you take on block.

AA in general isnt that good in the game. I am working on my AA 1/d1 so I can get used to it. Its not the greatest I agree, but its something and its better than being a sitting duck waiting to block. Thats the part practice is in order.

I feel a lot of the issues your talking about are valid however, are solved by using the tools at the right times and or spacing. Yes I believe he is within the cutoff of top ten as well but I also know that E.B isn't the easiest player for people to pick up and use efficiently from what ive seen. I find in general that the issues erron black mains are having usually have less to do with his kit, and more with their overall level of play.

No comment on slide, I was talking about something completely different and that is obviously how you are supposed to use it...

3,2 is garbage. There are very very few instances in which you would use 3,2 over SG, and even then, unless they get hit by it, you get .5% chip and are at a disadvantage, at which point your opponent can resume zoning. It does low damage and is within a damn string, therefore telegraphed and absurdly easy to punish, jump, reflect even. Not sure what else to say about this to make it clear.

No shit you shouldn't let people jip for free. My point is that d1/1 are very unreliable with the absurd active frames of jump ins and disjointed hitboxes, and that there are much safer and more consistent options, like trip guarding by walking backwards/back dashing/running forwards, or NJP in outlaw.

Finally, EB is not hard to play for anyone with the least bit of FG fundamentals, especially in outlaw, so saying his weaknesses are mostly rooted in the person controlling the character is bogus, especially since you could say that about any character at all. Characters have strengths and weaknesses, that's just how it works. ie In a game of shitty AAs, EB has bad options relative to a lot of the cast, and that hurts him as a character whether you as a player can cover that hole in his game or not.

 

[cambros22]

No comment on slide, I was talking about something completely different and that is obviously how you are supposed to use it...

3,2 is garbage. There are very very few instances in which you would use 3,2 over SG, and even then, unless they get hit by it, you get .5% chip and are at a disadvantage, at which point your opponent can resume zoning. It does low damage and is within a damn string, therefore telegraphed and absurdly easy to punish, jump, reflect even. Not sure what else to say about this to make it clear.

No shit you shouldn't let people jip for free. My point is that d1/1 are very unreliable with the absurd active frames of jump ins and disjointed hitboxes, and that there are much safer and more consistent options, like trip guarding by walking backwards/back dashing/running forwards, or NJP in outlaw.

Finally, EB is not hard to play for anyone with the least bit of FG fundamentals, especially in outlaw, so saying his weaknesses are mostly rooted in the person controlling the character is bogus, especially since you could say that about any character at all. Characters have strengths and weaknesses, that's just how it works. ie In a game of shitty AAs, EB has bad options relative to a lot of the cast, and that hurts him as a character whether you as a player can cover that hole in his game or not.

3,2 can anti-air.

Look, we can pick apart character strengths, weaknesses and flaws with strings exc..There just wont be many options if your not willing to take risks. That seems to be the line drawn in the sand here on TYM. Risk or safe. I like to keep a dynamic gameplay so ill mix-up as much of my tool kit as I can to make the match-up not so predictable. I will take a chance and attempt to break up my opponents offensive with moves that could get me blown up. To me, its worth taking the risk because if im rewarded, I now present another option my opponent has to think about when they try to come in again. So why not at least be proficient at minimizing the risk in doing it by learning what characters its easier to do on and using it when you don't have options like NJP's or Back Dashes/Forward Dashes etc.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Bottom 5 the poor thing.

Even SonicFox dropped him.

#BuffStripperErron

sonic fox dropped him because he is underpowered unless you use stripper erron, and he never uses stripper erron.

 

[BillStickers]

From reading your first post, it is very clear you just don't know the matchup. You are not an above average player if you know the matchup and still cannot read and punish a tick throw or ex SG within 21122. Furthermore, saying his meterless damage is ridiculous is, well, ridiculous.

I feel like people are not willing to lab matchups any more, there's got to be a reason why people still think EB is top 3, or how people STILL think the mixup in the 21122 string is grab or ex SG when both are full combo punishable by a forward jump.

If you're losing with Erron black you clearly need to lab more.

 

[BillStickers]

Erron Black is the Smoke of MKX

@YOMI RM Glass Sword crying about the Kitana matchup only makes this analogy stronger. Good work.

 

[wsj515]

If you're losing with Erron black you clearly need to lab more.

Huh??

 

[Schuyler]

Still top 3.

Erron was never top 3. And hes defiantly not top 3 now.

 

[Schuyler]

Hes still really good just not up there with raiden or d'vorah. Defiantly really viable. Corn alcaurd made kotal kahn look really good. Hes one of those he dosent need any buffs or nerfs characters.

 

[Schuyler]

I'm seeing allot of "I think he is top 10 still" or "I play Erron Black so I'm going to say he is in top 3". What I am not seeing is facts, matches, lab work, statistics, etc. Even from respect tournament goers, and I don't mean to put everyone on blast but it would be helpful if we only stated factual infermation and not guesses. We all know he got hit with the Nerf stick, so where in the Top 20 dose Erron Black stand? Get to your labs!

Hes number 7-8 just outside the characters some people consider broken hes good.

 

[21122]

I just wish sand trap wasn't nerfed to -2 because its such a cool looking move and now I am forced not to use it in most situations

I don't get why its -2 on hit, that makes no sense to me.

 

[HeroesNZ]

It's not -2 on hit. It's +6-9.

 

[21122]

Really? Doesn't feel like it though :O

I remember SonicFox or someone posting that it was +4 in the corner

Is there a reason why data in game is wrong?

 

[Beelthazus]

Hes number 7-8 just outside the characters some people consider broken hes good.

So hes in scorpion high tier.

 

[vcuzzo23]

"Buff him just in case"


Lmao. Classic^^^

 

[lionheart21]

Top-tier or not, Erron fits my play-style of full-on rush-down really well so that's why I stick with him.

Outlaw Erron's style reminds me of Johnny Cage from MK9 in the way that he doesn't have much of a zoning game, but he's one of the best when he gets inside. Its pretty much what drew me to him in the first place.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I would say he's around top ten. Definitely has flaws as pointed out earlier in this thread, but I am still waiting for more Erron Black players to shine. I really think Sonic could play anyone and beat most people. Keyword being most.

I hear a lot of how Marksman might be better than Outlaw. I'd personally would love to see this, so EB players, keep practicing and attend your tournies.

EB is definitely not Batgirl (I also think the whole Sonic being the only one to play BG with high success is because he put in the time and was not used as a quick "pick me up to body people in pools" character, even if she was top 2) so I would imagine more EB players could have success. He doesn't seem that difficult to play aside from some slight nuances in timing for Outlaw, and I never played a cancel character so I can't speak on Marksman.

 

[ienjoywinning]

To me he is mid+ but he is also the hardest character to play in term of execution (not metagame) which makes him even harder (don't get stress/delay in tournament with dat char lol).

He has one of the best string in the game : 21122 (the first hit is high and won't connect after a bf3 ex because you can duck), which won't make him shit tier, but if you know the matchup, Erron Black isn't that good, especially after the multi-nerf patch. The character has always been overated because of Sonicfox, but I don't know if we are going to see the cowboy being top 8 that much from now. Outlaw may be still pretty good with the OS.

I main him for the very beginning now, I have some secondary (Tanya, Kotal, Kenshi, Torr, Goro, Shinnok, Dvorah) that I play time to time and I feel like my Erron Black is one of the weakiest of my cast (It was weird to me as well) once people figured out the mu.

Offline you can armor him in reaction on the overhead (f1). I really think this character is overated. His d3 command grab doesn't connect anymore (I believed Erron Black was a grabber...), his pokes have a very short range, his backdash is awfull, his command grab is now useless in BnB, his zoning is limited (bf3) in most matchups, in Outlaw he had a particular neutral jump punch due to his variation but NRS nerfed it while Kung Jin, Quanchi and Raiden still got theirs in an universal way.

Gunslinger could answer to bad matchups but it's not even viable without changes patch by now.

When all the other shit char will be buff (and they will), I think Erron Black will have hard(er) time. I may be wrong but this is how I feel it. I see everyone dropping him, and despite Sonicfox (who's pretty skilled), I haven't seen him shined that much in tournament.

However, Erron Black stays the funniest char to play in the game.

@xGunShow @HeroesNZ did you drop him ? What do you think ?

I kinda agree with this , when i play im usually playing erron black most of the time and kung lao is my secondary , even then i rarely go into practice with kung lao and his still alot more better than my erron black for some reason