What's new

Hello!!?!? Can someone explain to me why KF is now top 5?

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Premium Supporter
I really thought you two were the same person.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Rickyraws I'm still über salty about our last session. I know that Killer Frost is probably one of Doomsday's worst MUs in the game, but oh my God. The way you tore me apart made me feel absolutely defeated. At least I could stand toe-to-toe with you for the most part in MK9. :p

Even with the MB Venom buff coming up, it won't help me at all with the Killer Frost MU. :/

We should get some more games in some time or go to online practice so you can help me work on the MU. :O
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
her 6 frame jab punish string is one of the better defensive type punish options in the game IMO. The point is that a normal weakness that you would normally find to be completely crippling in a fighting game (terrible normals) are completely covered up by the need to not have to play footsies due to the slide and the threat of it. Once you engage her and get in then you have one of the best, hardest to react to f3's in the game to deal with that is only made better by the threat of the slide and your opponents inherent nature to look out for low attacks. Both of these options lead to good damage and a 50-50 vortex with meter available.

In addition she still has fairly high damage output overall and an excellent ability to bait and punish moves with a long range attack like slide which is the best whiff punisher in the game overall IMO. Her bait and punish game is only made better by the meterless vortex where you can end combos with untechable knockdowns leading into a variety of attacking 50-50 situations including cross-ups and some ambiguous setups if timed correctly. The meterless vortex is almost always in KF's favor as it will normally give KF free damage into another vortex situation, a free back dash which could result in wake-up bait/punish in a lot of situations, or result in a situation where you can get a read on what your opponent wants to do on wakeup.
Yeah, I mean I don't disagree with any of this. I know about how good her slide is and her 50/50 vortexes. Her slide does cover her poor normals to a great extent. It is a great whiff punisher.

I guess what I'm saying is that if she were a top 5, she'd have more in the neutral game than just slide. You also have to be at some sort of advantage to throw out her 50/50 or you will get poked out. Alot of other characters can just jump in and go right into a 50/50 even on block. Or they can put you into bad situations off of block-strings. When KF hits you with a block string you are back to neutral frames or negative and then you are back to dealing with her bad normals again.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Yeah, I mean I don't disagree with any of this. I know about how good her slide is and her 50/50 vortexes. Her slide does cover her poor normals to a great extent. It is a great whiff punisher.

I guess what I'm saying is that if she were a top 5, she'd have more in the neutral game than just slide. You also have to be at some sort of advantage to throw out her 50/50 or you will get poked out. Alot of other characters can just jump in and go right into a 50/50 even on block. Or they can put you into bad situations off of block-strings. When KF hits you with a block string you are back to neutral frames or negative and then you are back to dealing with her bad normals again.
The threat of slide puts you in a position to walk forward and doing so opens up her b1. At this range, her 2 is a great anti air (not vs batman smh) or uppercut. If you are in b1 range, it's very close to overhead range. Most characters pokes can't reach her in this range either (Stuperman, Doomsday, and MMH can). Parry keeps aggressive poking to a minimum as well... but it's all about how the player sets it up and puts the threats out there.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
What I dont get is why is he saying after a blocked 50/50 or block string, she's screwed?

Lol so far from the case. Even if her 50/50 or string is blocked, 9/10 times, it will still be in her favor. Can't attack back because of parry/mbf3, can't jump at her because of d2/mbf3, and depending on the distance, can't even jump away because of mbf3.

That's why I feel like KF probably has the best vortex in the game. Even if its blocked, she still has options afterwards. Safe options at that.
 
What I dont get is why is he saying after a blocked 50/50 or block string, she's screwed?

Lol so far from the case. Even if her 50/50 or string is blocked, 9/10 times, it will still be in her favor. Can't attack back because of parry/mbf3, can't jump at her because of d2/mbf3, and depending on the distance, can't even jump away because of mbf3.

That's why I feel like KF probably has the best vortex in the game. Even if its blocked, she still has options afterwards. Safe options at that.
I don't know if I agree with this. Batgirl's vortex gets you:

(1) if you do b1~bf3 or b2d3~bf3, +1 on block into some nasty frame traps, or a corner carry combo that kills in three hits
(2) The option to go meterless and still get the strict standing vortex with a 4-touch kill, at -2 instead of -6
(3) the option for a secondary 50/50 off b2 - can go either b2d3 or b2~mbf3
Note that Batgirl has real corner damage as well, so corner carries are big.

It's not KF's vortex that keeps her close with Batgirl. It's more likely the fact that she doesn't have to play conventional footsies, and Batgirl has a problem with chars that have a great footsy game like Aquaman.


Scorpions "vortex" is admittedly ass - reactable and unsafe. I don't know enough about Zatanna to comment.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Rickyraws I'm still über salty about our last session. I know that Killer Frost is probably one of Doomsday's worst MUs in the game, but oh my God. The way you tore me apart made me feel absolutely defeated. At least I could stand toe-to-toe with you for the most part in MK9. :p

Even with the MB Venom buff coming up, it won't help me at all with the Killer Frost MU. :/

We should get some more games in some time or go to online practice so you can help me work on the MU. :O
Mr. Eldriken! How long it has been, comrade. Yeah we can definitely get some games going. I'd love to hop into online practice and tell you everything you need to know to beat a KF, but it won't be easy...

I hate to do this, as it doesn't show our brethren Khaotik in the best light, but perhaps learn from the ways of Mr. Kysersoze?


In other unpleasant news, a Doomsday player threatened that if he saw me in real life 'God knows I'd be in prison'. He also threatened physical and sexual violence, claiming that I couldn't beat his Doomsday with any other character (details on the Hatemail thread). I beat him with Wonder Woman. Perhaps we can do WW DD sometime as well?


Kitana cannot save you this time :joker:
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Mr. Eldriken! How long it has been, comrade. Yeah we can definitely get some games going. I'd love to hop into online practice and tell you everything you need to know to beat a KF, but it won't be easy...

I hate to do this, as it doesn't show our brethren Khaotik in the best light, but perhaps learn from the ways of Mr. Kysersoze?


In other unpleasant news, a Doomsday player threatened that if he saw me in real life 'God knows I'd be in prison'. He also threatened physical and sexual violence, claiming that I couldn't beat his Doomsday with any other character (details on the Hatemail thread). I beat him with Wonder Woman. Perhaps we can do WW DD sometime as well?


Kitana cannot save you this time :joker:

Ugh I played so bad in this match lol. We actually played again in losers finals for pools. That match was waaaaayyyyyy better
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Ugh I played so bad in this match lol. We actually played again in losers finals for pools. That match was waaaaayyyyyy better
I was screaming at the top of my lungs during that match. I know you didn't play as well as you'd have hoped. I didn't cry......there was a leak on the ceiling of the office that collided with my cheek. The corresponding bawling sounds were me practicing my ventriloquism.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Mr. Eldriken! How long it has been, comrade. Yeah we can definitely get some games going. I'd love to hop into online practice and tell you everything you need to know to beat a KF, but it won't be easy...

I hate to do this, as it doesn't show our brethren Khaotik in the best light, but perhaps learn from the ways of Mr. Kysersoze?


In other unpleasant news, a Doomsday player threatened that if he saw me in real life 'God knows I'd be in prison'. He also threatened physical and sexual violence, claiming that I couldn't beat his Doomsday with any other character (details on the Hatemail thread). I beat him with Wonder Woman. Perhaps we can do WW DD sometime as well?


Kitana cannot save you this time :joker:
Hah. I ran into some moron that other day that was trying to be a bad ass as well. It seems Doomsday and Killer Frost alike have similar effects on those who can't control their temper. :p

But yes, WW DD matches would be great. I'm much more comfortable with fighting WW than I am with KF. I'll cross that bridge eventually. :p
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
What I dont get is why is he saying after a blocked 50/50 or block string, she's screwed?

Lol so far from the case. Even if her 50/50 or string is blocked, 9/10 times, it will still be in her favor. Can't attack back because of parry/mbf3, can't jump at her because of d2/mbf3, and depending on the distance, can't even jump away because of mbf3.

That's why I feel like KF probably has the best vortex in the game. Even if its blocked, she still has options afterwards. Safe options at that.
Well, she's not screwed, but she's not at positive frames after a blocked slide or F3. After a blocked slide you can't just MB F3 either. The armor doesn't start up fast enough (unless they are just slow with their counter-poke). D2 is a decent option, but also leaves her even more negative and they can poke out before it's active. You can't do F3 after a blocked F3 either and they can jump back after a blocked F3 (maybe you were referring to slide though).

Parry is a decent option but very risky, gets blown up by jumps, lows, throws, or just blocking. It also needs meter to be worth the risk.

Saying that 9/10 times it's in her favor is exaggerating. It's a guessing game you have to make a read just as much as they do.

And to be honest I was talking about her blockstrings specifically, which are inferior in terms of granting mixups.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Premium Supporter
Ugh I played so bad in this match lol. We actually played again in losers finals for pools. That match was waaaaayyyyyy better
Nothing as fun as getting u3's to come out as neutral jump 3's. I get so damn annoyed when that happens...

Omg, this needs to be the universal Frost main sig.
Denied Frost'Murica
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Khaotik is talking about her options after a blocked 50/50, not a blocked slide. Slide hasn't been her low option for the vortex in a long time.
B1U3 is even worse frame data wise. Frost is closer to them for the F3 follow up, but they can still jump out, poke out, throw. All the options are still there for the opponent. It's definitely not 9/10 in her favor. I'd say the guessing game is actually against her 4/10.
 
B1U3 is even worse frame data wise. Frost is closer to them for the F3 follow up, but they can still jump out, poke out, throw. All the options are still there for the opponent. It's definitely not 9/10 in her favor. I'd say the guessing game is actually against her 4/10.
Poke risks parry to full combo punish, back in the vortex. Throw might work once or twice in a match, but if the opponent shows reliance on it, it's jump to full combo punish, back in the vortex.

Being at negative frames isn't a big problem for KF. That's not the end of the inquiry.

Plus, I brought it up to show you that your KF knowledge seems very dated.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
B1U3 is even worse frame data wise. Frost is closer to them for the F3 follow up, but they can still jump out, poke out, throw. All the options are still there for the opponent. It's definitely not 9/10 in her favor. I'd say the guessing game is actually against her 4/10.


Starting to piss me off...
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Poke risks parry to full combo punish, back in the vortex. Throw might work once or twice in a match, but if the opponent shows reliance on it, it's jump to full combo punish, back in the vortex.

Being at negative frames isn't a big problem for KF. That's not the end of the inquiry.

Plus, I brought it up to show you that your KF knowledge seems very dated.
Well whatever. I wasn't even talking about her 50/50 to begin with. When KhaoTik brought it up I just assumed he was talking about options after the low with the better frame data attached to it.

The point is, you have options and they have options. Yes her negative frames don't kill her in this situation, but also nothing is guaranteed either. Parry is a guess, d2 is a guess, neutral jumping a throw is a guess. You are guessing and they are guessing. And she doesn't win most of those guesses. It's actually slightly out of her favor.
 
Well whatever. I wasn't even talking about her 50/50 to begin with. When KhaoTik brought it up I just assumed he was talking about options after the low with the better frame data attached to it.

The point is, you have options and they have options. Yes her negative frames don't kill her in this situation, but also nothing is guaranteed either. Parry is a guess, d2 is a guess, neutral jumping a throw is a guess. You are guessing and they are guessing. And she doesn't win most of those guesses. It's actually slightly out of her favor.
Throw is 10%. Jump 2 leads to 40% into vortex.

Poke d1 is char dependent, but even on the best such as say, Catwoman, KF STILL gets a higher payout.

Yes, you have to guess. But KF punishes their wrong guesses much harder than opponents can punish her in these situations.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Throw is 10%. Jump 2 leads to 40% into vortex.

Poke d1 is char dependent, but even on the best such as say, Catwoman, KF STILL gets a higher payout.

Yes, you have to guess. But KF punishes their wrong guesses much harder than opponents can punish her in these situations.

I'll just leave the explaining to you lol.
 
I'll just leave the explaining to you lol.
I'm getting a little sick of having to explain KF from the ground up whenever people make random ass claims, so I might start following your lead and stop paying attention lol.

Especially true now that we're getting everything from "Slide is fucking broken" to "KF sucks because I don't know about MB parry"
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Throw is 10%. Jump 2 leads to 40% into vortex.

Poke d1 is char dependent, but even on the best such as say, Catwoman, KF STILL gets a higher payout.

Yes, you have to guess. But KF punishes their wrong guesses much harder than opponents can punish her in these situations.
You can recover from the throw attempt way before you come back down with your nj2. Also, if they don't try to throw, eat an anti air combo or just get poked out of your jump if they are poking.
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
I already said why she can't win consistently. Lot's of characters give her trouble. Superman, Black Adam, WW, MMH, Nightwing, Harley, Aquaman, Cyborg, Batman, Batgirl, Hawkgirl, and Green Lantern. After the patch you can add Doomsday, Bane, Catwoman and possibly Ares. Not saying she loses to all these characters but I'd say they definitely give her trouble.
She's bottom 15 not bottom 5
 
You can recover from the throw attempt way before you come back down with your nj2. Also, if they don't try to throw, eat an anti air combo or just get poked out of your jump if they are poking.
Whiffed throw is 31 frames, plenty of time to punish. That's half a second.


Again, crappy weak ass scaled d2 combo vs. GROWN-ASS WOMAN J2 FULL COMBO INTO VORTEX. I'll gladly trade you that 50% chance to get 25% for a 50% chance for 41% up front for a vortex that has an expected value of 65%, with a 25% chance to kill you right then and there.