Match-up Discussion Green Arrow Matchup Discussion

[ribu]

My friend mains Hawkgirl; these are some of the small things I've noticed in the matchup:
- He doesn't really have a solid way to deal with her hugging the top far away corner of the screen while in flight mode. If she moves in a bit from this part of the screen he can catch her with MB DF2, but he can still be beat out by her MB Air Mace throw.

-Her Mace Charge beats out pretty much everything he has. If she does it raw, you can catch it if you use his trait arrows early. His DB2 will not beat this move out, even with MB, so it's somewhat risky to try and spam it during this match. If done as a cancel, only his super will catch her; this applies to raw Mace charge as well.

-He can not punish Wing Evade 2(the overhead) on block.

I really don't think this matchup is in his favor. Once she gets in on him he has a hard time running away to try and zone again. Her divekick is pretty ambiguous, and I've had times when she'll land in front of me,but the game registered it her hitting on the other side.

 

[Red Reaper]

My friend mains Hawkgirl; these are some of the small things I've noticed in the matchup:
- He doesn't really have a solid way to deal with her hugging the top far away corner of the screen while in flight mode. If she moves in a bit from this part of the screen he can catch her with MB DF2, but he can still be beat out by her MB Air Mace throw.

I haven't played this match up but kan't he jump and shoot an arrow?

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think as of now Nightwing is GA's hardest match up. I've had nothing but problem with this match. You can't get anything going full to mid screen because of the electric ground pound staff move and up close he dominates. It's really hard to gain any momentum in that match. Most people don't use Nightwing correctly but the one I play that does makes this match seem impossible. I probably just need more time but it's pretty fucking hard.

 

[Red Reaper]

I think as of now Nightwing is GA's hardest match up. I've had nothing but problem with this match. You can't get anything going full to mid screen because of the electric ground pound staff move and up close he dominates. It's really hard to gain any momentum in that match. Most people don't use Nightwing correctly but the one I play that does makes this match seem impossible. I probably just need more time but it's pretty fucking hard.

Nightwing is pretty difficult.. I got bullied in the korner by GuamoKun 's Staff so bad last time.

That's how Arrow is though in a lot of match ups. He actually has to work for everything he does.

 

[Zatoichi]

Anyone have any advice on what to do against Superman? Everything Superman does seems to be so safe and I can't punish anything with Green Arrow.

 

[Red Reaper]

Anyone have any advice on what to do against Superman? Everything Superman does seems to be so safe and I can't punish anything with Green Arrow.

That's the main reason I don't like Arrow the way he is.

Against F23 Breath into F23 Breath your main options are:

Time your back dash and get forced to block the 3. So you push yourself further into the korner but take one less hit of chip.

D1 and hope he messed up his timing. If you trade, he has advantage so you're back in the same situation. If he scouted it, full kombo for him.

MB B3/F3. This is baitable and you're using meter. He doesn't lose anything from stopping his attacks since at mid range he has the advantage. If Supes has trait, then you don't even have this option which is your only real option anyway.

If F23 Breath is going to kontinue to exist, I think every character needs to have a 6 frame move. I think they should make Arrow's 1 or D1 6 frames.

 

[Raynex]

That's the main reason I don't like Arrow the way he is.

Against F23 Breath into F23 Breath your main options are:

Time your back dash and get forced to block the 3. So you push yourself further into the korner but take one less hit of chip.

You can backdash twice, evade both hits, and stop him from cancelling into Breath which gets you out for free. D1 is pretty reliable though, it's much easier for GA to time the interrupt correctly than for Supes to get a frame perfect F2.

 

[Red Reaper]

You can backdash twice, evade both hits, and stop him from cancelling into Breath which gets you out for free. D1 is pretty reliable though, it's much easier for GA to time the interrupt correctly than for Supes to get a frame perfect F2.

Have you tested it?

Both players have to work equally as hard to time it. The thing is though, Supes players would be used to it since it's part of their character. Even if it is easier for Arrow (which it's not), it kan be baited. Supes is klearly at advantage when he's at mid to klose range. Arrow's D1 is 7 frames, your F2 is 8 but since you're +1 it essentially becomes 7. Think about it.

I don't like how players kome and say this stuff when they haven't even tested it. I actually have. I set the dummy to playback and I tried to figure out my options. You have to delay Arrow's back dash and this isn't "free" because he kould get punished for it and kan't back dash on reaction, only on a read. And when you do manage to do it, you don't even get out.

 

[Raynex]

Have you tested it?

Both players have to work equally as hard to time it. The thing is though, Supes players would be used to it since it's part of their character. Even if it is easier for Arrow (which it's not), it kan be baited. Supes is klearly at advantage when he's at mid to klose range. Arrow's D1 is 7 frames, your F2 is 8 but since you're +1 it essentially becomes 7. Think about it.

I don't like how players kome and say this stuff when they haven't even tested it. I actually have. I set the dummy to playback and I tried to figure out my options. You have to delay Arrow's back dash and this isn't "free" because he kould get punished for it and kan't back dash on reaction, only on a read. And when you do manage to do it, you don't even get out.

Your post is condescending. You may not like reading things "players haven't tested", but what I don't like is your wild assumptions. It's not a freestyle solution I came up with mid-post. I've tested it numerous times and have had consistent results.

Thank you for clarifying but I understand frame data, and I did "think about it". Both moves are 7 frame start-up in this particular situation so they both have equal chance of either timing it correctly or trading. From my position as a Superman main, GA secondary and writer of more than half of the Superman MU section on TYM, I'm telling you, you can backdash twice with correct timing. IF you successful do this, you are out for free. I say free because Superman cannot cancel into Breath (both hits of F23 whiff) so you break about even in terms of frame advantage. From this point you can DB+2 or something. The situation you're forced into after blocked F23 xx Breath is a neutral guessing game. I know it's a read, that's how this works. You read correctly and you escape for free (aka no repercussions), he reads you and you're either back in the trap or you take massive damage.

...and of course Superman is at advantage at mid / close range, at what point did I say the opposite? This is likely the first & last time I'll post in this thread. I hope you treat others who post in here with a little more respect. Thanks for your time!

 

[Red Reaper]

Your post is condescending. Why are you automatically assuming I haven't practiced this myself before posting in on a forum? You need to relax, I'm just trying to contribute. You may not like reading things "players haven't tested", but what I don't like is absolutely unwarranted displays of disrespect. It's not a freestyle solution I came up with mid-post. I've tested it numerous times and have had consistent results.

Thank you for clarifying but I understand frame data, and I did "think about it". Both moves are 7 frame start-up in this particular situation so they both have equal chance of either timing it correctly or trading. From my position as a Superman main, GA secondary and writer of more than half of the Superman MU section on TYM, I'm telling you, you can backdash twice with correct timing. IF you successful do this, you are out for free. I say free because Superman cannot cancel into Breath (both hits of F23 whiff) so you break about even in terms of frame advantage. From this point you can DB+2 or something. The situation you're forced into after blocked F23 xx Breath is a neutral guessing game. I know it's a read, that's how this works. You read correctly and you escape for free (aka no repercussions), he reads you and you're either back in the trap or you take massive damage.

...and of course Superman is at advantage at mid / close range, at what point did I say the opposite? This is likely the first & last time I'll post in this thread. I hope you treat others who post in here with a little more respect. Thanks for your time!

Okay, to be fair... I'm sorry. I did sound kondescending. I let my frustrations with this game and specifically with others get transferred to my post.

The reason I thought you haven't tested this is because you said that D1 is easier for Arrow than it is for Supes to do F23 and you said to just back dash twice like if it was easy.. Your choice of words also didn't make sense, "Free" usually means easy. "Yo, that guy is free!" means that they're saying that I don't have to worry about him.

With this reasoning in mind I didn't konsider timing two back dashes with a risk of punishment and no reward for doing so "Free."

Supes being +1 is not a neutral guessing game. I never really heard of anyone kalling advantage Neutral.

The limiting of options is how rushdown works. The thing is though, the risk reward is severely in Supes favor. It's not hard to get into range of F23 and when you do you risk little kompared to him. How is this fair? Like you said, "You read correctly and you escape" and put yourself further into the korner but if "he reads you and you're either back in the trap or you take massive damage"

In the back dash scenario, Supes risks nothing which is what happens when Supes has trait.

 

[Raynex]

Okay, to be fair... I'm sorry. I did sound kondescending. I let my frustrations with this game and specifically with others get transferred to my post.

The reason I thought you haven't tested this is because you said that D1 is easier for Arrow than it is for Supes to do F23 and you said to just back dash twice like if it was easy.. Your choice of words also didn't make sense, "Free" usually means easy. "Yo, that guy is free!" means that they're saying that I don't have to worry about him.

With this reasoning in mind I didn't konsider timing two back dashes with a risk of punishment and no reward for doing so "Free."

Supes being +1 is not a neutral guessing game. I never really heard of anyone kalling advantage Neutral.

The limiting of options is how rushdown works. The thing is though, the risk reward is severely in Supes favor. It's not hard to get into range of F23 and when you do you risk little kompared to him. How is this fair? Like you said, "You read correctly and you escape" and put yourself further into the korner but if "he reads you and you're either back in the trap or you take massive damage"

In the back dash scenario, Supes risks nothing which is what happens when Supes has trait.

Fair enough. The reason I call it a neutral guessing game is strictly in regards to the numbers. Superman's F2 becomes 7 frames, and GA's D1 is 7 frames. Both are the same speed, and thus neutral. But after this conversation I'm starting to realize it's less about numbers and more about abusing backdash invincibility. NRS really needs to give GA a 6 frame D1, or a slightly longer backdash so a single one would make both hits of F23 whiff. Yeah the risk reward is skewed heavily in Superman's favour in this match-up. Characters with 6f D1s like GL, Catwoman, Supes, Batman (stand 1 is 6f too) can interrupt with full combos on a read, it's nuts.

 

[Red Reaper]

Fair enough. The reason I call it a neutral guessing game is strictly in regards to the numbers. Superman's F2 becomes 7 frames, and GA's D1 is 7 frames. Both are the same speed, and thus neutral. But after this conversation I'm starting to realize it's less about numbers and more about abusing backdash invincibility. NRS really needs to give GA a 6 frame D1, or a slightly longer backdash so a single one would make both hits of F23 whiff. Yeah the risk reward is skewed heavily in Superman's favour in this match-up. Characters with 6f D1s like GL, Catwoman, Supes, Batman (stand 1 is 6f too) can interrupt with full combos on a read, it's nuts.

Yeah.. That's why I picked up Nightwing and Batman... Funnest top tier characters in the game for me (though still not as fun as my favorites). I really think he should get either a 6 frame D1 or a 6 frame standing 1. I actually don't use his standing 1 that much so if it were 6 frames that would give me incentive to use it. Up klose I opt for 223 or D1 as the basic starting point. If I see them getting more defensive then I start going into my other options.

Green Arrow has grown to be my funnest character, but I don't like that he's so limited against Superman. I like versatility. I don't mind having bad match ups but I don't ever like feeling like I kan't deal with a match up. That's why in MK9 I was able to stick with my main, Sektor. He has a few bad match ups but he's able to overcome them with good reads and patience.

PS: Catwoman doesn't have a 6 frame D1 but she does have a 6 frame standing 1. Green Lantern doesn't have either of those, both of his are 7 frames.

 

[ribu]

I haven't played this match up but kan't he jump and shoot an arrow?

Depends. If she is at max flight height he will not get high enough to reach, since she is higher than max jump height. I generally let her hang in the corner until flight runs out, then punish her falling down. It's just aggrivating since flight has no cooldown time once it runs out.

 

[Red Reaper]

Depends. If she is at max flight height he will not get high enough to reach, since she is higher than max jump height. I generally let her hang in the corner until flight runs out, then punish her falling down. It's just aggrivating since flight has no cooldown time once it runs out.

Kinda what I thought.. She's a very dumb character design. Either she lames people out by literally not even playing defense just hovering away or she gets wrecked.

 

[Red Reaper]

Depends. If she is at max flight height he will not get high enough to reach, since she is higher than max jump height. I generally let her hang in the corner until flight runs out, then punish her falling down. It's just aggrivating since flight has no cooldown time once it runs out.

At max flying height I've been able to jump and shoot an arrow at her, right now that I hit the lab.. She doesn't seem like a bad match up with this in mind, though I don't know much else about her.

 

[Red Reaper]

Seapeople
Raynex
7L
Jimmypotato
Cossner
GodsLonelyman

What do you guys think are Green Arrows worse match ups?

I plan on hitting the lab with him and want to dissect every match up I kan but priority should go to his worst match ups.

I don't know how I feel about the Aquaman match up but he has options against him.

So far Superman is still the main one I think is his worst match up.

Spoiler

Makes sense I guess konsidering he killed him in the story.

 

[Erazor]

What do you guys think are Green Arrows worse match ups?

I plan on hitting the lab with him and want to dissect every match up I kan but priority should go to his worst match ups.

I don't know how I feel about the Aquaman match up but he has options against him.

So far Superman is still the main one I think is his worst match up.

Spoiler

Makes sense I guess konsidering he killed him in the story.

For me, the worst one is Aquaman. Supes and Black Adam are tied for second place.

 

[Red Reaper]

For me, the worst one is Aquaman. Supes and Black Adam are tied for second place.

Thanx. Those were the first three I tested as they're among the top of the game.

I still need to get around to Nightwing as well. I know that's a tricky match up..

I should have probably put down physical notes on the characters I tested but I was just looking for match up dominating stuff and zoning.

Here's what I remember for Aquaman:

Aquaman is punishable on Stabs as long as you crouch block and he's minus on quite a bit of stuff. You kan armor in the F132 string: F1[here]3. He kan still block though, so IDK how much that really benefits us. We're at advantage but back dashes are really good in this game so he kan probably escape any pressure from that advantage. Similarly we kan also back dash in that gap which puts us at around neutral in a decent position.

After each Trident you kan load an Arrow, so if you need to get Arrows, just stay away and wait for him to Trident. If you have already aimed your arrow, you kan shoot on reaction to movement if you read that he's going to trident you. I'm not sure how beneficial this will be, but at least it's something. Maybe if we're on point we'll be able to fully do it on reaction but I'm not sure, it's something I'll have to test against a real player.

You kan also back dash the trident on reaction to avoid chip and load an arrow but this has to be practiced.

I need to play this match up to find out more.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

In my personal experience and opinion, the most problematic for me so far have been:

Aquaman. My biggest pet peeves are that you can't load an arrow on that motherfocker because he gets a free ground trident punish, so instead you have to wait for him to do a ground trident to load one or load safely after a bnb. The other thing that really infuriates me is that when you freeze him, if he traits with the correct timing he can block your followup string, so he kinda renders ice arrows useless. If you watch ECT you'll see Tom Brady doing it to Chris G LOL. He also has a way better mid range game than Green Arrow with further reaching normals and pokes, so it's not easy getting in on this prick. I feel he controls the pace and spacing of the match and makes it difficult for Arrow to start any offense.I'm still trying to figure out this matchup

Superman. That match is broken. Arrow really doesn't have an effective answer for f23breath. Like others have said with the current backdash GA has and his 7f d1, theres not much you can do but hope you time your d1 or backdashes like a jedi (I still havent been able to do this BTW after hundreds of attempts)

Nightwing. His staff stance gives me trouble. He has a really fast d1 thats plus 1 on block, and his ranged pokes 1f1 thats also plus 1 on block I believe. He has a faster d1 than arrow on escrima stance, and his d12 is also plus on block and sets you up for a frametrap. I find it difficult to approach him or start any offence, especially when he's in staff stance. he has so many frametraps! And from full screen his db2 in staff stance (the ground spark) is hard to counter. If you load he hits you, if you try to fire an arrow it beats you. So you have to respect it. Jumping doesn;t seem viable, especially with Arrows floaty jump. The method thats worked for me is dashing them. If you time it right and you read he's going to do one, you can dash and the spark won't track, you actually see it hit behind you. I'm at a lost in this matchup, don't know how to fight him yet.

Black Adam. This guy can play really lame in this matchup. Well timed dive kicks are unpunishable. From fullscreen or from a distance, he can outzone you. Attempting to load an Arrow on this guy is risky business, so you have to be weary and plan how you're going to load. The match feels to me like a Tom And Jerry episode, where Tom is helplessly chasing Jerry and getting trolled on the process, in this case we're Tom. Black Adam is amazing at whiff punishing and causes HUGE damage. You really have to be on point against this guy. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what to do against black adam. He seems to have an answer for everything Arrow attempts.

Cyborg: I can handle him from mid range and close but getting in is the problem. I can't counterzone him, lose every trade, and when I do inch my way in, he grapples the fock outta there with his armored grapple trolololo. Whats the secret to beating this character with arrow, besides patience and hella good reads?

 

[Gysbert]

Anyone have any advice on what to do against Superman? Everything Superman does seems to be so safe and I can't punish anything with Green Arrow.

If you block breath you can actually do db2 reversal if you are mid-screen, if he goes for f23 breath again then he gets hit or if he d1's after the breath this also beats it. If he doesn't do anything then you are just creating space which is kind of bad because I have the hardest time with Superman when he starts chucking lasers at you. I have found of a weird way to deal with him just spamming laser though, I just use raw trait and it beats lasers before start-up this gives me time to dash in and be in his face again. He doesn't really have a good wake up in my experience it's either the up grab or the flip and I think neither of those are very safe. Hope this helps

 

[Raynex]

If you block breath you can actually do db2 reversal if you are mid-screen, if he goes for f23 breath again then he gets hit or if he d1's after the breath this also beats it. If he doesn't do anything then you are just creating space which is kind of bad because I have the hardest time with Superman when he starts chucking lasers at you. I have found of a weird way to deal with him just spamming laser though, I just use raw trait and it beats lasers before start-up this gives me time to dash in and be in his face again. He doesn't really have a good wake up in my experience it's either the up grab or the flip and I think neither of those are very safe. Hope this helps

Superman's lasers are the most unsafe tools in his arsenal. Here is how to beat them. Heat vision is the slower sweeping laser beam, Heat zap is the 38f laser shot that crosses the screen super fast.

Full screen: Against grounded heat vision, you can jump it like a normal projectile. You can't be punished for this at all. If you're close enough you can jump on him for a full combo. If you block it for whatever reason, he's at negative frames so you're allowed one free dash forward to close the gap. Against air heat vision, you can jump it just as easily. Simply wait for the beam to hit the ground THEN jump. The hitbox on the air vision deteriorates so that it will actually pass through your legs with proper timing.

Mid screen: Same strategy. Jump the grounded heat vision, jump or block & dash the air vision. From this range you can actually punish a block air heat vision with BF+3, as Superman is completely helpless as he is falling from air to ground.

Close: You won't be dealing with grounded heat vision from this range. If he does the air version, block it & dash into 223 or whatever other string you want as he's falling. You can get creative with your punishes at close range.

Heat Zap, all distances: 38f start-up, high, +19 on block. This move is as slow as molasses but it does A TON of damage on hit and 6% chip on block. It's actually slower than many F3 / B3s even. GA can deal with these rather easily. Watch Superman carefully and if you see the start-up for this move, crouch or jump. GA has the added benefit of being able to punish this move at specific ranges with low arrow (I believe normal / elec / fire can punish from full screen, but I could be wrong).

 

[TexJones]

yea definitely saw Aquapoke destroy GA

 

[Gysbert]

snip snip

Good stuff, Im glad to know that my gameplan is somewhat similar to what I should be doing. I just need more games because sometimes I block heat vision and I dash in and while I dash in they MB it and I get hit. Definitely want to improve on this MU though. Superman too stronk.

 

[TimTim]

My friend mains Hawkgirl; these are some of the small things I've noticed in the matchup:
- He doesn't really have a solid way to deal with her hugging the top far away corner of the screen while in flight mode. If she moves in a bit from this part of the screen he can catch her with MB DF2, but he can still be beat out by her MB Air Mace throw.

-Her Mace Charge beats out pretty much everything he has. If she does it raw, you can catch it if you use his trait arrows early. His DB2 will not beat this move out, even with MB, so it's somewhat risky to try and spam it during this match. If done as a cancel, only his super will catch her; this applies to raw Mace charge as well.

-He can not punish Wing Evade 2(the overhead) on block.

I really don't think this matchup is in his favor. Once she gets in on him he has a hard time running away to try and zone again. Her divekick is pretty ambiguous, and I've had times when she'll land in front of me,but the game registered it her hitting on the other side.

You do know GA can angle his shots. Just hold 4 then ub.

 

[UserJuke]

This may have been possible pre patch, but I had issues with it. You can now EASILY punish Aquamans Trident Scoop with F2D13. Nice, should help a ton in this match.