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Frost General Discussion

Vhozite

Jade Worshipper
Ill give an example.

b12 xx Microburst: 138 DMG, +7 hit advantage

b12 xx Auger: 123 DMG, +11 hit advantage

You get extra frames to jail into something or even just start regular pressure again without retaliation. It’s for when I want pressure without dealing with wake up options.

Also worth noting that 13 xx Microburst the second hit whiffs midscreen and leaves you -6.

13 xx Auger doesn’t have that issue and gives a couple extra frames on hit.
 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
Ill give an example.

b12 xx Microburst: 138 DMG, +7 hit advantage

b12 xx Auger: 123 DMG, +11 hit advantage

You get extra frames to jail into something or even just start regular pressure again without retaliation. It’s for when I want pressure without dealing with wake up options.

Also worth noting that 13 xx Microburst the second hit whiffs midscreen and leaves you -6.

13 xx Auger doesn’t have that issue and gives a couple extra frames on hit.

Do you not know that after you hit someone with Microburst you can hit them with 344 and leave them standing?

b12 xx MB Microburst xx jump in 1 xx 344 +16 for 216 damage

And 13 xx MB Microburst has never whiffed mid screen for me are you serious?
 

Vhozite

Jade Worshipper
Do you not know that after you hit someone with Microburst you can hit them with 344 and leave them standing?

b12 xx MB Microburst xx jump in 1 xx 344 +16 for 216 damage

And 13 xx MB Microburst has never whiffed mid screen for me are you serious?
Im aware, I was just giving a very simplistic example. It’s all the same trade off offense>damage just with different tools.

I’m not saying it’s her best option, just that’s it an option period
 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
Im aware, I was just giving a very simplistic example. It’s all the same trade off offense>damage just with different tools.

I’m not saying it’s her best option, just that’s it an option period
Oh ok I was just saying by comparison if you dont want to deal with knockdowns Microburst is infinitely better. You get much more damage and way more pressure then you would with Ice auger. Not to mention the 344 reset carries to the corner a lot more as well. So IMO it isn't the same trade off of offense and damage.

With microburst into 344 you get 10% more damage AND +5 more frames. Not to mention you end up CLOSER to your opponet as well. The only reason I even posted in the thread is because I see this arguement and it doesnt make sense. The only thing Ice Auger to me is good for is as a projectile that can KB every now and then. But idk I just feel Kryo Stance and DIscharge are strong enough zoning tools so I wouldn't use Ice Auger but everybody is gonna have they own playstyle. But when you look at the numbers I don't get how Ice Auger is better.
 

Vhozite

Jade Worshipper
Oh ok I was just saying by comparison if you dont want to deal with knockdowns Microburst is infinitely better. You get much more damage and way more pressure then you would with Ice auger. Not to mention the 344 reset carries to the corner a lot more as well. So IMO it isn't the same trade off of offense and damage.

With microburst into 344 you get 10% more damage AND +5 more frames. Not to mention you end up CLOSER to your opponet as well. The only reason I even posted in the thread is because I see this arguement and it doesnt make sense. The only thing Ice Auger to me is good for is as a projectile that can KB every now and then. But idk I just feel Kryo Stance and DIscharge are strong enough zoning tools so I wouldn't use Ice Auger but everybody is gonna have they own playstyle. But when you look at the numbers I don't get how Ice Auger is better.
Except that this situation is only possible when you are burning meter on a combo. Auger is for when you want non-knockdown pressure and you can’t/don’t want to burn meter.
Auger is also better for bullying people off stray pokes like b2 on d3, especially in the corner. 344 can’t be buffered off pokes and Microburst’s second hit is prone to whiffing from far away. Auger is safer and can force blocks from farther away.

Obviously these benefits are debatable, but I’d rather have them over Auger Lunge which just doesn’t do anything I actually want besides decent corner carry off an amp I personally am almost never gonna use.
 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
Except that this situation is only possible when you are burning meter on a combo. Auger is for when you want non-knockdown pressure and you can’t/don’t want to burn meter.
Auger is also better for bullying people off stray pokes like b2 on d3, especially in the corner. 344 can’t be buffered off pokes and Microburst’s second hit is prone to whiffing from far away. Auger is safer and can force blocks from farther away.

Obviously these benefits are debatable, but I’d rather have them over Auger Lunge which just doesn’t do anything I actually want besides decent corner carry off an amp I personally am almost never gonna use.

I know what you mean about stray pokes. I use Kryo-Stance and Blade spin cancels off pokes sometimes. If you really think that bar isn't worth the setup well ok then lmao My only arguement is for every use that Ice Auger has there is anothe move in her kit that does it better IMO as far as pressure on block why not just use blade spin?
 
I think the reality Is that there isn’t really a 100% correct answer...which is a good thing! It means Frost has multiple viable options, which makes her deeper than some other characters.

The big reasons I use Ice Auger is its occasionally better than microburst in combos where you don’t want to knock the other person down. Often I’ll keep the other guy standing so they don’t get access to wake up options and Auger leaves you more + than Burst. Burst usually leaves you +7 where Auger leaves you +9 and in other combos +11. The second hit of microburst can also whiff in certain situations.

That said I’m always open to other options, so I definitely think this is a good discussion to have.

Edit: I’d use Core Overload if it didn’t go away when you get hit. The amped version could be a cool defensive option that forces the other guy to eventually get off you but right now you end up getting finnesed out of an offensive bar by a stray d1. Even without amp shenanigans the damage buff is pretty minuscule AND doesn’t last very long.

Edit 2: LOL you also lose overload if you throw them or land a KB...NRS plz
You can still do that with microburst by using j2 344. IMO those are the pros and cons of each of those moves:

MircroburstIce Auger
ProsProvide great damage and combos opportunities

Allows you to set up many moves and strategies

Can create a mind game around d1 microburst

Can keep the opponent grounded in combos


Allows you to easily juggle air opponent(after an AA or a krushing blow) midscreen

Is a great pressure tool with meterburn ice auger mindgames

Allows you to hit confirm b2 safely

Can be used for oki


ConsDoesn't offer much in the way of pressure on block

Has a small range and whiff depending on the distance

Isn't the best linker midscreen when the opponent is in the air
Offer less damage than microburst as a launcher

Isn't the best tool for set ups such as corner carries etc



 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
You can still do that with microburst by using j2 344. IMO those are the pros and cons of each of those moves:

MircroburstIce Auger
ProsProvide great damage and combos opportunities

Allows you to set up many moves and strategies

Can create a mind game around d1 microburst

Can keep the opponent grounded in combos


Allows you to easily juggle air opponent(after an AA or a krushing blow) midscreen

Is a great pressure tool with meterburn ice auger mindgames

Allows you to hit confirm b2 safely

Can be used for oki
ConsDoesn't offer much in the way of pressure on block

Has a small range and whiff depending on the distance

Isn't the best linker midscreen when the opponent is in the air
Offer less damage than microburst as a launcher

Isn't the best tool for set ups such as corner carries etc
The best pros for Ice Auger I see here is mainly confirming back 2 safely in neutral and as the key to AA juggles getting confirmed. I know Ice auger is safer on block but Im a huge user of MB Kryo-stance on block and Blade spin and I keep my pressure going pretty well. I think it just comes down to preference really as far as the block pressure use. Are you more comfortable being in your opponets face? Blade gives you safe block pressure, would you rather push them back and be prety safe? Use Ice Auger. Also Kryo-stance can work here but you'll be -7 instead of -3 compared to Ice Auger and a little further away from your opponent.
 
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Vhozite

Jade Worshipper
I know what you mean about stray pokes. I use Kryo-Stance and Blade spin cancels off pokes sometimes. If you really think that bar isn't worth the setup well ok then lmao My only arguement is for every use that Ice Auger has there is anothe move in her kit that does it better IMO as far as pressure on block why not just use blade spin?
Nah I’d never burn meter on Auger Lunge amp. It’s not bad, but I’d rather save the meter for other things.

I save meter for amped Microburst, amped Cryo Stance, and wake up attacks.
 
The best pros for Ice Auger I see here is mainly confirming back 2 safely in neutral and as the key to AA juggles getting confirmed. I know Ice auger is safer on block but Im a huge user of MB Kryo-stance on block and Blade spin and I keep my pressure going pretty well. I think it just comes down to preference really as far as the block pressure use. Are you more comfortable being in your opponets face? Blade gives you safe block pressure, would you rather push them back and be prety safe? Use Ice Auger. Also Kryo-stance can work here but you'll be -7 instead of -3 compared to Ice Auger and a little further away from your opponent.
There's no mix up after spin for the most part though If they have a good mid or are decided on poking
 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
There's no mix up after spin for the most part though If they have a good mid or are decided on poking
Yeah true but I was just saying to use it for safe pressure. And at the same time people really suck at responding after blade spin and ex blade spin if you mix them up. I usually end up catching a lot of people dropping their guard. I was saying with Ice Auger you still essentially give up your turn on block since the only real mixup is if you're going to mb or not. Once your opponent blocks the 2nd auger its not like you're safe from reversals or am I imagining things lol
 
Yeah true but I was just saying to use it for safe pressure. And at the same time people really suck at responding after blade spin and ex blade spin if you mix them up. I usually end up catching a lot of people dropping their guard. I was saying with Ice Auger you still essentially give up your turn on block since the only real mixup is if you're going to mb or not. Once your opponent blocks the 2nd auger its not like you're safe from reversals or am I imagining things lol
It creates spacing though and you can steal your turn
 

BurdaA

Frost-Byte
Anyone see mustard on today’s stream? Maybe 1.5 to 2 hours in....

Imma spend some more time on bomb/microburst. Granted his opp wasn’t flawless blocking b22 or ducking in between 344df2 (assume that’s still possible...?), but it could be really good, certain mus notwithstanding
 
Anyone see mustard on today’s stream? Maybe 1.5 to 2 hours in....

Imma spend some more time on bomb/microburst. Granted his opp wasn’t flawless blocking b22 or ducking in between 344df2 (assume that’s still possible...?), but it could be really good, certain mus notwithstanding
I don't run that because I'm not confident in my neutral and pressure enough to go naked until I get a knockdown
 

scarsunseen

Safeties disabled. Mod mode engaged.
Moderator
that's a lot of answers then lol. can you narrow it down a little for me so I can give you a better answer?
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Ice Auger
I haven't really liked her regular Auger as a move for a lot of reasons compared to Microburst. But my biggest reason is because to me it's more of a projectile option and not a combo extender. And with Frost you have Kryo-stance and her core discharge move, 2 very solid zoning tools. I honestly don't think the Auger KB is that much of a difference maker considering the setup is pretty strict. And then using AMP Auger on block just for pressure is only so beneficial. It's safe but you can still get mashed and at the same time you have to give up a bar for that as well. AMP Kryo-stance is just as good on block IMO because the amount of push back pretty much resets neutral and the chip it does on block (4% vs 3%) and I'd rather use blade spin anyway since it's actually pretty safe.
It's funny I only ever thought of auger as a projectile when it comes to dealing with characters who out-range frost. Or else I mainly used them as a pressure tool.
There is a difference between Kryo-stance (amp) and augers (amp) as pressure moves that make me prefer Augers. Namely the frames and the pushback distance and the fact that I get a full combo if I land the special.
17936

As a frost player, I want to keep the pressure at my optimal distance (B2) and so If possible, I rather avoiding resetting the neutral and instead maintain my offense.
An issue with Kryo as a replacement for Augers is, if you do B22~Kryo(amp) and the opponent starts off blocking high, he can duck the second projectile and poke you before the amplified stars come out, thereby taking his turn. If he's crouch blocking to begin with, then he can poke under the first projectile. Sure you can complete the string to throw him off or do microburst or blade spin but why add this unnecessary mind game there when Augers(amp) cant be poked out off...
Now yes, some characters that have fast advancing mids can interrupt the pressure after Augers(amp), which necessitates adjustments in your pressure but most can't.

As for Blade spin as a pressure tool. Blade spin is -4 or -7 (amp). Grants no pushback and you forgo your offense. You give the opponent access to pokes, grabs and strings (pokes and grabs are outranged with augers(amp)). While I love blade spin, your offense ends and you have to guess (or read) how your opponent will take his turn back. You are now in a defensive/reactive role. I rather avoid that and keep him in that role. (Im not saying I never use blade spin in my pressure, just saying that augers and kryo-stance are clearly better as pressure tools compared to blades).
 
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NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
It's funny I only ever thought of auger as a projectile when it comes to dealing with characters who out-range frost. Or else I mainly used them as a pressure tool.
There is a difference between Kryo-stance (amp) and augers (amp) as pressure moves that make me prefer Augers. Namely the frames and the pushback distance and the fact that I get a full combo if I land the special.
View attachment 17936

As a frost player, I want to keep the pressure at my optimal distance (B2) and so If possible, I rather avoiding resetting the neutral and instead maintain my offense.
I want my opponent to press a button and get caught in a combo that can lead to another setup with my burrowing augers or damage.
Another issue with Kryo as a replacement for Augers is, if you do B22~Kryo(amp) and the opponent starts off blocking high, he can duck the second projectile and poke you before the amplified stars come out, thereby taking his turn. If he's crouch blocking to begin with, then he can poke under the first projectile. Sure you can complete the string to throw him off or do microburst or blade spin but why add this unnecessary mind game there when Augers(amp) cant be poked out off...
Now yes, some characters that have fast advancing mids can interrupt the pressure after Augers(amp), which necessitates adjustments in your pressure but most can't.

As for Blade spin as a pressure tool. Blade spin is -4 or -7 (amp). Grants no pushback and you forgo your offense. You give the opponent access to pokes, grabs and strings (pokes and grabs are outranged with augers(amp)). While I love blade spin, your offense ends and you have to guess (or read) how your opponent will take his turn back. You are now in a defensive/reactive role. I rather avoid that and keep him in that role. (Im not saying I never use blade spin in my pressure, just saying that augers and kryo-stance are clearly better as pressure tools compared to blades).

I really underestimated how safe augers is on block honestly lol I'll just have to see if I get better results or not
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
@NappyNuisance
So putting aside the frames and pushback in auger's favor on block for continuing the pressure, let's look at stagger pressure.
When microburst (amp) hits, your options are much more varied than Augers (amp) hitting. I dont think anyone can argue against this.

When these specials arent amplified and still hit though, augers still gets better stats than microburst midscreen.
17939
In the corner, the 2nd hit of un-amplified microburst hits, leaving you at +7 no matter the startup, while un-amplified auger always leaves you at +9.

In terms of pressure, I think Augers are her most optimal tool because of their frame advantage, the lack of blatant gaps (unlike kryo), the range & pushback. Even when not amplified on BLOCK, they are no worse than microburst since they both arent really punishable either (you just lose your turn).
Microburst shines if it lands, Augers shine when blocked and if hit, then B1~Core Discharge leaves you safe from most wakeups, while keeping you at B2 range for further pressure.
Personally, I combined it with burrowing auger so when I finish my combos with B1~BurrowingAuger, the opponent is restricted in terms of responses and can either block, U3 or Roll away. If they have no meter, they can only block and stay on defense.
The damage is decreased but the rate at which you open people up increases with Augers i find.
 

NappyNuisance

Irritatingly Noir
@NappyNuisance
So putting aside the frames and pushback in auger's favor on block for continuing the pressure, let's look at stagger pressure.
When microburst (amp) hits, your options are much more varied than Augers (amp) hitting. I dont think anyone can argue against this.

When these specials arent amplified and still hit though, augers still gets better stats than microburst midscreen.
View attachment 17939
In the corner, the 2nd hit of un-amplified microburst hits, leaving you at +7 no matter the startup, while un-amplified auger always leaves you at +9.

In terms of pressure, I think Augers are her most optimal tool because of their frame advantage, the lack of blatant gaps (unlike kryo), the range & pushback. Even when not amplified on BLOCK, they are no worse than microburst since they both arent really punishable either (you just lose your turn).
Microburst shines if it lands, Augers shine when blocked and if hit, then B1~Core Discharge leaves you safe from most wakeups, while keeping you at B2 range for further pressure.
Personally, I combined it with burrowing auger so when I finish my combos with B1~BurrowingAuger, the opponent is restricted in terms of responses and can either block, U3 or Roll away. If they have no meter, they can only block and stay on defense.
The damage is decreased but the rate at which you open people up increases with Augers i find.

See this is the arguement I needed with Augers. I've got so used to using bladespin on block just to be safe, I really never knew Augers gave Frost actual pressure I thought the neutral was pretty much the same. Your charts are dope