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Match-up Discussion Flash Matchup Discussion

The_SNKE

BLT | RM
I need help with Doomsday. I've been getting rocked lately. How do you guys handle him? Only thing I've found specifically is that if you block MB Venom standing, the follow-up D1 earthshake (if he chooses to do it) you'll be able to walk back and make the earthshake whiff and B22 punish. Other than that, I don't have much haha
 
I need help with Doomsday. I've been getting rocked lately. How do you guys handle him? Only thing I've found specifically is that if you block MB Venom standing, the follow-up D1 earthshake (if he chooses to do it) you'll be able to walk back and make the earthshake whiff and B22 punish. Other than that, I don't have much haha
You can stuff all his wakeups except up venom so play with that. Yes hold back when they get into mb venom mode. Body splash is super trip guardable. mb charge jails up close on wake up. contrary to what most people say, I believe it is a tough match up.
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
Probably WoWo, HG, Zatanna and Zod, in my opinion at least. GL is annoying but so long as you're patient and awake, he doesn't really have any great ways to open Flash up while we walk him to the corner. And I used to think BA, but I don't think it's as bad anymore post patch, or at least as troublesome as the other four in my opinion.
i dont think WoWo is a bad MU i think its 5-5 HG, zatanna and zod i do agree with, i think batman is 5 - 5 now after playing arma this tuesday (and finally winning) you just have to be really patient as with most MU with flash
 

SEV

Noob
i dont think WoWo is a bad MU i think its 5-5 HG, zatanna and zod i do agree with, i think batman is 5 - 5 now after playing arma this tuesday (and finally winning) you just have to be really patient as with most MU with flash
I find that WoWo wins the neutral game too easily with the better footsies and tools for this MU: gets pacing control, air dominance, out ranges us by a lot, doesn't need meter, and has a better WU than us in regards to how well we can handle each other's oki games. Both are corner dominating characters, but she has a better wall carry than us, and a better corner game in general in my opinion(not by too much in either regard, but still tilts toward her). I just think she has a clear advantage in the neutral game and her momentum can take her further than ours in the match up with lower levels of risk and difficulty.
 

LEGEND

YES!
I find that WoWo wins the neutral game too easily with the better footsies and tools for this MU: gets pacing control, air dominance, out ranges us by a lot, doesn't need meter, and has a better WU than us in regards to how well we can handle each other's oki games. Both are corner dominating characters, but she has a better wall carry than us, and a better corner game in general in my opinion(not by too much in either regard, but still tilts toward her). I just think she has a clear advantage in the neutral game and her momentum can take her further than ours in the match up with lower levels of risk and difficulty.
well said

My opinion exactly
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
I find that WoWo wins the neutral game too easily with the better footsies and tools for this MU: gets pacing control, air dominance, out ranges us by a lot, doesn't need meter, and has a better WU than us in regards to how well we can handle each other's oki games. Both are corner dominating characters, but she has a better wall carry than us, and a better corner game in general in my opinion(not by too much in either regard, but still tilts toward her). I just think she has a clear advantage in the neutral game and her momentum can take her further than ours in the match up with lower levels of risk and difficulty.
see i don't agree, flash is really underrated when it comes to footsies tools, when characters like aquaman, WoWo and superman and sinestro have to approach flash i think it becomes in his favor because there are more chance for them to mess up and you capitalize on their mistakes with huge damage. trust me when i say that both characters are messed up in the corner, both have anti character tech ( i play foxy all the time and we go even or slightly his favor), you can duck and punish b2 lasso with duck then LC which stops them from ever using that, even in the corner. making her whiff her b1 when you approach her is key in the MU. dash right outside the range of b11 and play footsies, i never struggle against any WW player and i actually use her myself on the side (on some secret GGA off stream shit). i think its 5 - 5 IMO you may have different experience against her so idk
 

NoobHunter420

Scrub God Lord
is the MB charge really 7 frames?
I knew It was fast, but not that fast.
can it punish trident rush? mb or non mb?
I can never get a reversal charge so can't test, I have no problem doing the uppercut reversal tho
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
see i don't agree, flash is really underrated when it comes to footsies tools, when characters like aquaman, WoWo and superman and sinestro have to approach flash i think it becomes in his favor because there are more chance for them to mess up and you capitalize on their mistakes with huge damage. trust me when i say that both characters are messed up in the corner, both have anti character tech ( i play foxy all the time and we go even or slightly his favor), you can duck and punish b2 lasso with duck then LC which stops them from ever using that, even in the corner. making her whiff her b1 when you approach her is key in the MU. dash right outside the range of b11 and play footsies, i never struggle against any WW player and i actually use her myself on the side (on some secret GGA off stream shit). i think its 5 - 5 IMO you may have different experience against her so idk
Sinestro doesn't have to approach him... and when he does, he has trait.
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
Sinestro doesn't have to approach him... and when he does, he has trait.
midscreen when i have life lead? like literally i just hit you with 58% and were sitting right outside jump distance, the same spacing will alow me to dash up right outside your d1 range and punish any air axe attempt, any trait cancel attempt and and fear blast attempt, the sweet spot i called it back when you couldn't b12. you have to sit there and wait on my life lead or come to me what are your other options?
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
midscreen when i have life lead? like literally i just hit you with 58% and were sitting right outside jump distance, the same spacing will alow me to dash up right outside your d1 range and punish any air axe attempt, any trait cancel attempt and and fear blast attempt, the sweet spot i called it back when you couldn't b12. you have to sit there and wait on my life lead or come to me what are your other options?
I think you exagerrate reacting to Sinestro's movements. You aren't going to be punishing trait charge on reaction; it's a read. If you have that big of a life lead then I am just going to be sitting back and building the trait. Anything you try to do to stop it is a risk unless Flash is literally in Sinestro's face. And anyways it's not a "sweet spot" anymore because he has B12 for footsies now.
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
I think you exagerrate reacting to Sinestro's movements. You aren't going to be punishing trait charge on reaction; it's a read. If you have that big of a life lead then I am just going to be sitting back and building the trait. Anything you try to do to stop it is a risk unless Flash is literally in Sinestro's face. And anyways it's not a "sweet spot" anymore because he has B12 for footsies now.
exactly but still b12 is over rated, once i catch your first backdash on a read with LC MB it would be very risky to do it again, so then when you do b12 you eat a 50/50 (in my head atleast) and am not worried about you building trait anymore, i'll let you do something risky if i have the life lead, like trait cancel into whatever or whiffing air axe, once i have you in the corner your mine XD
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
exactly but still b12 is over rated, once i catch your first backdash on a read with LC MB it would be very risky to do it again, so then when you do b12 you eat a 50/50 (in my head atleast) and am not worried about you building trait anymore, i'll let you do something risky if i have the life lead, like trait cancel into whatever or whiffing air axe, once i have you in the corner your mine XD
meh, that's the Flash in general though. He has a strong corner game. The B12 carries standard risk-reward. If it hits I get damage into a vortex or trait build, and if it's blocked I have to guess. The LC MB is also a risk on the Flash's part, so I don't mind backdashing to make you respect the option.
 
Hi, I've been trying to register for like 3 weeks to ask one thing:
Please explain to me how this MU is 7-3 for Flash.

Try to intercept his jump? Lose air to air 10/10 times. Jump in? Get a pipe to the face. Crossup? Get a pipe to the face.* Uppercut? Gets stuffed 9/10 times, by neutral jumps, jump-ins and backwards jumps with early aerial attacks. Walk-up/Dash-up? Throw, d1, gun, pipe or canister keep me out. Even super (which I get fairly reliably, becauseI can't approach him from the air, ground, or through voodoo) gets beaten by his j1 and teeth.

The only things you can reliably do in this MU against a competent player is fishing with b22 (have fun getting parried all day), punish 2/3rds with LC and try to catch his safe ass with OH pounds. What tilts this MU in Flash's favour? Is it the fact that you have a 50% chance to not get comboed for 70% once you get him into the corner?

I used to play Tager in BBCT, I play Honda and other low tier garbage in SF, I know how to play and win bad MUs. This, however, is probably one of the worst MUs I've ever had to deal with.

A friend of mine that I have played against for years and years, he's free to me. Literally free- I can beat him 24 games in a set of 25 in almost any game you can name, 20 out of 25 if I'm drunk, wearing an eyepatch and having a bad day. When he plays Joker, he can take 10-12 games out of 25 against my Flash (not other characters), and that's with him knowing one combo for 40% and pressing random buttons on wakeup (he doesn't know what a frame trap is- luckily he doesn't need to in this MU).

I have shifted my focus back to KOF, but I had to come here and ask: is there like 1 button that beats everything Joker does, because if not, he can literally do whatever he wants in this MU unless the Flash player massively out-skills the Joker. That's always the sign of a balanced MU, right? This shit is 6-4 or 7-3 for Joker easily imo, I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise.

*That was the point where I switched character- Joker's d.2 hitting behind his head- late! You can't even cross him up once he realizes you can't do shit if he starts pressing buttons.
 
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I do not have much joker experience except Dark and Goomba. It sounds like the guy you are playing is comfy with Joker v Flash. If you can put him on PSN to play me and watch the match maybe it would help? I thought overall the match is relatively even imo. But most Jokers will say Flash wins etc. Still Joker's tools are undeniably good against characters that do not zone him out.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
6-4 Flash once flash players start AAing J3 and taking advantage of the 50/50 that is backdashing a J2/3.
 

GuamoKun

I Break Hearts, Not Combos
6-4 Flash once flash players start AAing J3 and taking advantage of the 50/50 that is backdashing a J2/3.
2/10 please elaborate on why its 6-4 in the first place and why jumping is important in this MU

apply yourself next time
 
6-4 Flash once flash players start AAing J3 and taking advantage of the 50/50 that is backdashing a J2/3.
Uppercut loses to J3 (clean) unless the Joker-player mis-spaces it and have you seen Flash's backdash? It is his best tool here though, I agree. That, or blocking and allowing the Joker player to do whatever the fuck he pleases, like I said.

I can't help but feel that you do not understand how aggressive you can afford to be in this MU. If you have good spacing, you will beat every single one of Flash's options in the neutral game.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
2/10 please elaborate on why its 6-4 in the first place and why jumping is important in this MU

apply yourself next time
No need to be like that.
Uppercut loses to J3 (clean) unless the Joker-player mis-spaces it and have you seen Flash's backdash? It is his best tool here though, I agree. That, or blocking and allowing the Joker player to do whatever the fuck he pleases, like I said.

I can't help but feel that you do not understand how aggressive you can afford to be in this MU. If you have good spacing, you will beat every single one of Flash's options in the neutral game.
Your D2 can AA joker, if I want to hit you before you can react ( which you still can ) with flying uppercut then I can't do a deep J3, that means that ducking and D2ing will work because J3s active frames will be up. Or you can train and focus on anti airing with flying uppercut all the time. Gunshot is almost completely useless in the matchup, Joker has absolutely no defense when up close, no way to open you up, no way to force you in once you have the lifelead. Joker has less damage, mediocre wakeups and barely any midscreen setups along with no safe jump vs flying uppercut.

Backdashing J3 and J2 gives you the ability to get in with f2, if I try to backdash you can mb charge.

Flash's flying uppercut is one of very few moves that destroy Joker's gimmicks and some setups like B1 teeth B13 since they cleanly punish any setup cancels and escape teeth at the same time.
 
Thanks for the insight Quark. I just do not believe in MU numbers in general so I usually say even or disadvantaged/advantaged. If I can win 2-8 games out of 10 it is usually "even" enough for me.
 

The_SNKE

BLT | RM
So I'm not sure if this is known or not, feel free to blow me up if it is lol:

Anyway, I found something interesting for Aquaman -

One issue for Flash in this matchup is that he can't do anything without meter that Aquaman can't trait out of. The footsie game goes completely in Aquaman's favor (save for from the deep). Whiff punishing is basically impossible because we have no real way to launch him with meter. And no, D2 is not an efficient way to launch Aquaman, the risk reward is SO in Aquaman's favor it's scary. But I was messing around in the lab and I saw that Flash's standing 3 makes the opponent go airborne. Aquaman cannot trait out of 32, which is very interesting.

You can basically go for 32, D2 B22F3LC for a meterless 25% whiff punish

or 32, D2xtrait, LK, B22LK, B22F3LK, B22 LUC for a meterless 35% (Highest I've found, I'm sure you can get more)

It can be used as a whiff punisher (for B12 for instance) or even as a punish certain situations like if the Aquaman is trying to punish your dash ins with D1x ground trident, and you happen to block the trident from a few feet away (where D2 won't reach) and they trait up, 32 is a viable option.

@AK Harold
@Zyphox
@LEGEND
@BrobaChett
 
If Aquamans trait is up just end with regular LK or SP until he pops it. D2 is safe if you RMSc it and doing that will up your game against the whole cast if you practice it. It is tough but at the same time aquaman cant wakeup so it becomes either a very strategic drawn out footsie game, or you murdering him.
 

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
i personally just end up hitting him with b22, when he blocks it, if they know they can't poke out after they usually push block, so mix up game flow chart after trait is this.

trait - b22 did he push block? no then d1, d1d2 or f2 LK
yes then he wasted meter that he needs and so its in your favor, also less trident rush.
either way i like this because he has to guess what i will do anyway, if he tries to poke out then d1d2 will beat him, and if his trait runs out then you hit him with everything you have.
also i have found that b22 MB SP is very hard to trait unless done preemptively, so there's that.