First Big Patch Wishlist.

[Chernyy Volk]

Dude, I main Kabal. You can check on switch for proof. I'm the number 2 ranked player. Which isn't saying much, but I travel too much to play on the PS4.

Having played against good Sonya's, your suggestions are way too harsh.

Just because you do well against a character doesn't mean they shouldn't get nerfed though. I do well against Sonya too. I still think she's dumb. If I didn't play a character that hard countered her I'd want to pull my hair out.

 

[DeftMonk]

No, that's the slow ass long range high that has a giant gap in the last hit.

Oh word I was like wtf... my bad

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I agree some things but I disagree with some changes. You'd nerf the top tiers way too harshly (like NRS did in MKX), that's the best way to make top tiers useless in one patch. I'd prefer NRS to nerf them a bit until they are considered as balanced.

I want to react to some specific changes you ask :


It already launches, no need to boost the damage, even if the scaling is quite high, a launch is already a good reward.


Why ?


Some characters having better pokes than others are part of the game and balancing process, that's why I don't agree here. Let's give a 7 frame d1 to Sonya in the current build and everybody would cry.


Why would you nerf Cage right now ? I might be biaised but I don't think the character needs any changes right now. FIxing the whiffing issues is the the priority over everything else right now. If Cage is too powerful after that has been fixed then maybe we'll nerf him. And they need to change his KBs to make them easier to trigger.


You're would nerf her way too much. Here what I wrote on how to nerf her without killing her : https://testyourmight.com/threads/theyre-after-our-sonya.69979/page-5#post-2524606

I agree with the Scorpion and Cassie changes (especially the part on Yaas Queen part, I don't know if nerfing the low gunshot is a good idea right now).

I'll address you point by point.

U2's: It's two bars for 5% damage that gets broken immediately and depending on who you are you may never open them back up again. There is no universe in which this is currently worth using.

D1's: This can be what d3's are for. Uniformity is good. Uniformity establishes a fundamental baseline for the game.

Johnny Cage: If his whiffing issues are fixed and he gets more practical KB requirements this needs to be less plus. I feel like you aren't thinking about the big picture here.

Sonya: So let me get this straight, you'd rather just make her weaker, instead of keeping her explosive nature while making her live or die by it? I want to maintain her identity as a high risk high damage mix character. My nerfs keep that intact. She's still doing 50% off unreactable mix in the corner, she still has an S-tier wave dash, she's still forcing you into the 50/50 after a d3 on hit, her throws are quite good positioning wise, her KB's are still very good because they're super accessible. This characters problem is she's the best at EVERYTHING right now. Her footsies are good, her zoning is the best in the game next to maybe Cetrion, her damage is high and practical, she has mix, she has good jump ins, something has to give here and she needs to be pidgeonholed into more of an archetype than "jack of all trades who has mix" which is currently what she is.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Oh word I was like wtf... my bad

Yeah, it's the one that ends in the overhead sword cleave that bounces you back on hit.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Are we playing the same game?

A lot of U3s have extremely fast recovery and you can sometimes fail to punish them even when you're expecting them.

Some U2s are only -10, namely kotal's, but there are more than are even -7 like Geras IIRC. If the opp was baiting a U3 whiff or didn't want to FB, those are virtually unpunishable, with some being quite literally unpunishable unless you FB them in a game where you can wake up with 7 different things.

About rolls, I don't think something that's only beatable with a throw on a read, in a game with 7 different wakeup options, that can reverse corner situation, make strings whiff and punish them should only cost 1 bar. Imagine gambling on getting out of the corner and only losing 14% and a defensive bar.

Why should KBs do 32% avg damage when some are safe and fullscreen, while having superarmour? It's a scrub comeback mechanic, which most games have had since SF4.

Lower sonya's damage because she shouldn't be able to do 550-600 damage, did you not watch combo breaker? And her rings shouldn't be the best zoning projectile in the game.

Sure it's not. Play a good scorpion and tell me again it's not a mixup between normal and EX. Especially if they're playing reborn.

All of the U3's are reasonably whiff punishable in this game. It's just a matter of practice. I very rarely drop whiff punishing them.

U2's suck. You want to make a 5% two bar launcher ALSO MASSIVELY UNSAFE? I think this is crazy talk. It's the same concept as the U3's. They're all reasonably whiff punishable and every character has a knockdown that covers both options in terms of making them whiff.

As for rolls, that's because while throws are the obvious counter that isn't what you should be doing. Jabbing people out of rolls is the way. They eat a full unbreakable combo, depending on who you are it's a free launching KB combo (Baraka for example). With the universal changes I suggested, keep in mind that jabbing someone out of roll recovery is a counter hit, which would mean krushing blows are on the table when you catch one.

KB's are fine if using them one time period loses them. I don't mind that they exist in their current state, just that someone can fuck up with them and use it again in five seconds. That's what makes them scrubby IMO.

Sonya's damage is fine if you apply the nerfs I do to her and deadshot the projectile. We're not trying to kill what makes characters unique here.

 

[BuffRaiden]

Okay you're still the only person here that finds sonya this much of a problem. Nobody should ever be dead shot nerfed, including Deadshot. They made the character literally useless. I pray they don't listen to people like you and only go with moderate nerfs.

The way they handled black adam in I2 is how you respectably nerf a character. She should absolutely be able to stagger her b1 string or special cancel it. Just change the zoning,.

 

[DrFolmer]

Given that Johnny's main advancing strings are 14 frames - whereas one is a hit confirmable high starter and the other is a non-confirmable mid - I fail to see why he should have reduced plus frames from it. Plus 3 is far from broken - it doesnt guarantee anything except a d4. I would agree if he had a 9-10 frame mid where the idea of a theoretical 6-7 frame really far advancing move is stupid. Point blank its a mind game of d4 check or a throw. If he actually had a mid that could punish you (for a full combo that is, he technically has a fast mid in d1) for disrespecting his plus frames you could make the case.

Or am I missing how broken it truly is? I know it jails, but come on, this is not dirty in the slightest. You spend a bar for maybe a throw or a d4 - and none of this is applicable midscreen. And I'm not trying to call anyone out, I just want to hear some details on the thought process behind this particular topic - maybe I am missing something

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Given that Johnny's main advancing strings are 14 frames - whereas one is a hit confirmable high starter and the other is a non-confirmable mid - I fail to see why he should have reduced plus frames from it. Plus 3 is far from broken - it doesnt guarantee anything except a d4. I would agree if he had a 9-10 frame mid where the idea of a theoretical 6-7 frame really far advancing move is stupid. Point blank its a mind game of d4 check or a throw. If he actually had a mid that could punish you (for a full combo that is, he technically has a fast mid in d1) for disrespecting his plus frames you could make the case.

Or am I missing how broken it truly is? I know it jails, but come on, this is not dirty in the slightest. You spend a bar for maybe a throw or a d4 - and none of this is applicable midscreen. And I'm not trying to call anyone out, I just want to hear some details on the thought process behind this particular topic - maybe I am missing something

I guess I could give it up but I feel like it should happen if he got better KB requirements and every single one of his hitbox issues were fixed.

 

[Frenzy]

Do you think scorpion’s u3 should be more negative? It’s only -2 and it’s not even punishable if you flawless block it. I feel like it should be -5. I think there are a couple of other wakeups that are barely negative too.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Add the ability to replace button log with the tutorial mode control hud.
Remove the slot indicator that plays when playback is set to random with more than 1 option.
Allows flawless block option to activate after first hit
Demonstration mode for the entire command list.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

U2's suck. You want to make a 5% two bar launcher ALSO MASSIVELY UNSAFE? I think this is crazy talk. It's the same concept as the U3's. They're all reasonably whiff punishable and every character has a knockdown that covers both options in terms of making them whiff.

The goal was not to have safe launchers on wakeup. It's a launcher -- so if you only manage to get 5% off it, that's mainly your own fault

 

[Qwark28]

The goal was not to have safe launchers on wakeup. It's a launcher -- so if you only manage to get 5% off it, that's mainly your own fault

Don't bother, he doesn't know how many resources U2s even cost and seems oblivious that they're launchers even. It's not worth replying.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

With how slow his advancing normals are, I don’t think Johnny’s ex BF2 needs nerfed. It’s not like he can just jam whatever he wants down your throat, as it is now you’re both still very much playing the game.

 

[Snibbor]

Why nerf Johnny’s plus frames to be only +1? As it is now he has nothing guaranteed off it except for a d4. I see you addressed this and said it “needs to be less plus” but I don’t understand why you think this.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Kotal Khan:

1: You can choose what direction to throw somebody off of db2

2: 212 has 5 less recovery frames and launches the opponent right in front of you, giving him a meterless combo option

3: b22 does 200 damage stand alone. I'm not kidding. I like the idea of this just being a soul destroying launcher for how slow it is.

4: b223 is +10 on block

5: Mace parry buff lasts 5 seconds

None of Your suggestions even touch what is fundamentally wrong with Kotal.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Nerf the super fast broken projectiles in this game... and Sub-Zero’s dash for the love of God. He’s like on roller blades. Lol

 

[Second Saint]

I have mixed feelings on how to deal with D'vorah. I believe her base kit is lacking, but Strepsitera alone is so good it makes up for a lot of those defficiencies, even though I'm not sure all aspects of it are working as intended. Specifically, it doesn't start combos on the first few active frames. Whether this is a bug or something to limit her trapping potential, I can't say.

If I had to buff her, I'd probably make 2 a mid and 21~ amp db1 link. This would make a world of difference for both variations.

F22d1+3 KB needs to be changed. Frankly, all KB's that trigger if the opponent "blocks late" should be changed. It's a ridiculous requirement totally out of my control as a player.

Widow's Kiss is somehow one of the worst teleports I've ever seen, and it just shouldn't be. 34f start up is insane. This is a two slot ability, I'd appreciate if it were roughly on par with Scorpion's base grounded teleport. If it was fast enough to use as a combo ender, that would be good, but potentially too much, as it would give her some pretty extreme restand pressure. Enough to actually get past projectiles more reliably, and I'd be happy.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

Jacqui Briggs:

1: f1 is 9 frames and a high from 11 frames and a mid

2: f3 is 13 frames from 9 frames

3: Jacqui is -7 after her throw reversal is teched

4: Jacqui is -8 if b34 is flawless blocked

Jade:

I actually think Jade is just fine

Stop posting

 

[Buster Skruggs]

Any insults or salt will just be ignored. I'm happy to discuss any of these ideas with people. Also, when you read this, you need to treat it LIKE PATCH NOTES, as in, think about the universal changes along with the nerfs/buffs. People I've shown this to see their character getting nerfed and flip the fuck out without realizing their character would actually be buffed overall.

Only a couple of characters here get seriously hurt, but they still gain big returns. I don't even know what you would do with Lao and D'vorah, so I'm happy to hear what Lao and D'vorah mains think their character needs. I also agree Johnny Cage needs better KB requirements but I'd rather hear what the Johnny mains would like to have.

Alright, here's what I'd like to see on every character and universally in the game.

The universal changes have these goals in mind

1: Remove variability
2: Higher reward for being FUNDAMENTALLY good at the game. You can use the system and nothing else to win. So mechanics got buffed etc.
3: Universalizing/Normalizing basic tools across the cast.
4: Emphasize player expression through resource management (KB's and supers mainly)

Universal:
1: Increase jumping startup frames
2: Increase u3 damage to 12%
3: Increase u2 damage to 15%
4: Fix the hitbox/hurtbox issues to make jailing/pressure more reliable
5: Nerf s1/d1-d3 AA's, make d2 upper body invincible u2 style
6: One breakaway per round
7: Fatal blow is lost on hit, block AND whiff
8: Bring back the ability to use punish/kounter hit KB's in the middle of combos that were a punish/counter
9: All d1's are 7f, +10 on hit and -6 on block
10: Bring back the ability for "if opponent is stand/crouch blocking" KB's on specials to work out of strings.


Baraka:

Baraka is fine as is. He's one of the few characters in this game that has strengths, weaknesses, AND a fully fleshed out gameplan with fully usable buttons. He's a good example of MK11's character potential.

Cassie Cage:

1: Make Kneecappin' (db1 in Digital Soldier) have 10 more recovery frames. The frame data doesn't even have recovery for this move so I'm ball parking it. This makes the move worth dodging, instead of it being preferable to block it. Right now she can machine gun this on whiff.

2: db4 MB in Yaas Queen is +20 on hit, making the b13 link easier and giving her more combo options overall. I'm pretty sure this would allow her to do j1/j2 links.

3: Make Flippin' Out (db3) launch higher, giving Cassie a small juggle if it connects.

Overall, Cassie is in a good place.

Cetrion:

I think Cetrion is fine as is except for teleport. Make it cost 2 defense bars.

D'vorah:

I don't even understand what's supposed to be bad about this character. But I'd increase the cancel advantage on 12 so it can link into puddle. This is a very dangerous character to buff tbh.

Erron Black:

dd3 can no longer be canceled into out of strings in 52 Kard Pickup

21212 is flawless blockable on the final hit into an u3 punish

f4 MB is -15 on block

Frost:

1: Fix her s1 and s2 hitbox. I feel like if anything she should have one of the longest s2's in the whole game.

2: Remove the Flawless Block gap from b22.

2: Decrease the scaling off the b2212 KB

4: Cryogenic Crown is a mid

Geras:

1: f212 is -7 on block and flawless blockable on the final hit

2: 111 is -14 on block

3: Sandtrap in infinite Warden only is -35 on block

4: d1 is normalized to 7f

5: Swap the KB requirements between the sandtraps

6: u2 is normalized into average u2 speed of 10-13 frames so he can't launch counterpokes anymore

7: Fix the gap in f212 so he doesn't have jank based 3-7 MU's

8: Decrease his hurtbox size while blocking so he isn't being forced to hold strings other characters don't have to (Johnny's 124 etc)

Jacqui Briggs:

1: f1 is 9 frames and a high from 11 frames and a mid

2: f3 is 13 frames from 9 frames

3: Jacqui is -7 after her throw reversal is teched

4: Jacqui is -8 if b34 is flawless blocked

Jade:

I actually think Jade is just fine

Jax:

Jax is fine.

Johnny Cage:

1: Fix all of his whiffing issues

2: bf2 EX is +1 down from +3 on block

Kabal:

1: Turn Nomad Spin (db2) into a MB launcher, give it more damage on regular so it can be a combo ender.

2: Make bf2 KB out of strings but make it -25 on block

This is all I feel Kabal should get tbh

Kano:

I feel like Kano's problems are entirely rooted in his variations to be honest.

1: Fix the whiffing issues on f12b2

2: Make variation one Manhandled+Snakebite

3: Make variation two Lumbar Check+Magnet Pull+Vegemite Buff

Kitana:

I don't know what Kitana needs. I feel like the universal changes I proposed would help her though.

Kollector:

1: 131 has 25 recovery down from 40, allowing Kollector to combo off this meterlessly.

2: 21+3 is special cancelable

3: 32 KB is changed to be a punish/kounter KB

4: b122 can come out on whiff and block

5: f321 is special cancelable like the frame data says

6: f3 is -10 on block, basically converting this into a high damage but punishable whiff punish button

Kotal Khan:

1: You can choose what direction to throw somebody off of db2

2: 212 has 5 less recovery frames and launches the opponent right in front of you, giving him a meterless combo option

3: b22 does 200 damage stand alone. I'm not kidding. I like the idea of this just being a soul destroying launcher for how slow it is.

4: b223 is +10 on block

5: Mace parry buff lasts 5 seconds

I like the idea of Kotal being just a big damage meat head and being rewarded for taking huge risk. I think this all helps that.

Kung Lao:

People say this character sucks? So like, I don't know what he needs cause I don't think he's that bad. I do think that his strings that have huge pushback on hit should have less, so that he can hat spin off of everything without HAVING to spend the bar. Seems kinda whack.

Liu Kang:

1: F4 is 11f startup from 9

2: 12 is 0 on block from +2

Noob Saibot:

1: 212 launches closer to Noob, allowing for more consistent combos to help out his zoning variation. This string is pretty irrelevant in the one we all use. This just makes the f2212 conversion easier.

2: bf2 MB KB is changed to work on an anti air.

3: b31+3 KB is changed to a punish/kounter KB

Raiden:

1: db4 MB in Raijin is a launcher again.

2: Air and grounded bf3 KB's are changed to work on punish/kounter

Scorpion:

1: Can't MB teleport on block

2: Close tele cancel costs offense bar instead of defense (I think people would agree this is an aggressive maneuver). Far tele cancel costs both defense bars.

3: b141 is special cancelable, but the full string will come out on block. Making it for whiff punishing only.

Shao Khan:

People downplay this character hella.

1: Give his buffs/taunts less recovery.

2: Shoulder can be MB'd on block

That's all he needs. I don't wanna hear it.

Skarlet:

Skarlet is fine.

Sonya Blade:

1: b123 is a string that has to be fully dialed in. b1 is -10 on block. Make her commit to the mix.

2: 134 is flawless block u3-able on the last hit

3: Double the recovery on bf1. Deadshot this projectile.

4: Remove the low profiling on d3

5: b14 is -15 on block and only special cancelable on hit

Sub Zero:

Sub is fine if all the universal changes I mentioned are implemented.

There we go.

Definitely should have thought about your first paragraph before posting lol. "People I've shown this to see their character getting nerfed and flip the fuck out"

 

[Qwark28]

None of Your suggestions even touch what is fundamentally wrong with Kotal.

But don't you like B22 combos doing 500 damage and B223 being +10 on block even though nobody with over 20 IQ and some matchup experience ever lets the 3 part come out by just doing S1 to full combo?

Doesn't everything just seem very well thought out?

 

[BuffRaiden]

The goal was not to have safe launchers on wakeup. It's a launcher -- so if you only manage to get 5% off it, that's mainly your own fault

Can we just archive this thread or something? The Sonya suggestions are outright character assassination by someone who clearly just doesn't like the character.

 

[BuffRaiden]

Can we also talk about how this scam artist basically ignored Scorpion.

His Spear should not be safe full screen. Death spin is hardly punishable unless it's done right in your face. And he even wants buffs for this braindead character.

F3 should be -7 on block, how's that Cherny. He doesn't need broken staggers.

Weren't you trying to sell people frame data for money. Instead of making write ups to which no one will listen, why don't you write yourself a resume and get a job. I've never seen anyone more disliked than you, and Tweedy is part of this community.

Air Teleport should arguably also be removed entirely. This is the move that is preventing anti airs and allowed Scar to beat Waz at combo breaker despite playing like an online scrub. Watch the match back and honestly try not to vomit. That is not top level play.

 

[lionheart21]

Cassie Cage:

1: Make Kneecappin' (db1 in Digital Soldier) have 10 more recovery frames. The frame data doesn't even have recovery for this move so I'm ball parking it. This makes the move worth dodging, instead of it being preferable to block it. Right now she can machine gun this on whiff.

2: db4 MB in Yaas Queen is +20 on hit, making the b13 link easier and giving her more combo options overall. I'm pretty sure this would allow her to do j1/j2 links.

3: Make Flippin' Out (db3) launch higher, giving Cassie a small juggle if it connects.

You want more recovery on a move that's -25 on block and her main counter-zoning tool? And what will that do recovery-wise if it's AMPed, since that's her main combo extender?

 

[FonicSox]

Geras:

I'd like for him to be complete and utter, incontrovertible and unmitigated dogsh*t.

Well said.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Do you think scorpion’s u3 should be more negative? It’s only -2 and it’s not even punishable if you flawless block it. I feel like it should be -5. I think there are a couple of other wakeups that are barely negative too.

If you hit the f3 stagger Scorpion is dead. Especially in Reborn where his only way to blow you up is f34 which, after the KB is spent, which you probably just instabreak, is EXTREMELY low reward. People just need to have more balls in counter poking, like, you realize the risk reward on blowing this up is in YOUR FAVOR most of the time right?