Fighting game archetypes and the next MK: A better way to balance

[Zoidberg747]

Baraka's slices pressure was a bill, I learned that one the hard way.

Baraka was basically a corner based character. His entire gameplan revolved around getting people to the corner since that is where he got a majority of his damage, to do that he had to use a lot of space control. Baraka isnt a turtle character because you always had to try and control the pace of the match, not the other way around.

His rushdown wasnt very good. F44 F4 didnt lead to too much, his 50/50 was slow and required meter for one option, and he had a lot of gaps in his pressure.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Glacius is the biggest zoning bill I have ever paid. I want my money back lol

 

[CD jr]

sadira is a vortex character? damn ive been playing her wrong the whole time i do agree with everything you said besides sadira being a vortex character. Also i like to add for those saying that not every charactr should have a fireball i dont agree cause thats mk tradiotion and it should stay like that. In the new KI characters that had projectiles dont anymore but keep in mind that another company did the game and not the original devs. Ed boon still is the one working on his game and i dont think he will remove projectiles from his characters

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I don't care if every character has a projectile. But a character with great 50/50s, high damage and mobility shouldn't have top 5 projectile in the game. It needs to be a shit projectile lol. Hopefully everyone can agree on that. Otherwise you might as well make the whole cast "super characters" but then you have no diversity.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

So, you're telling me a poking tool can't be punished?

Lol man, nvm.

Can we all just agree that Qwark is the best thread derail-er on this site an call it a day?

I already forgot why I came in this thread.

 

[Big Pampering]

Hence why I said he's built like a turtle. Although depending on your play style and/or MU, it will determine how you have to play.

Edit: Yes, the MU again smoke for example is really hard, but can be done. Also , just because he's built a certain way doesn't mean you have to play that way. Sub is a turtle, but through meta-game, he has evolved into a possible rushdown character with frame traps the godlike 22~iceball as an AA. We should get some games in since you're playing it more now.

What matchups does he actually win by turtling?

 

[Big Pampering]

Can we all just agree that Qwark is the best thread derail-er on this site an call it a day?

I already forgot why I came in this thread.

no

 

[Scoot Magee]

so was my original placement as turtle really that far off?

If Cage was the definition of rushdown, would you still call subzero rushdown?

I think people should really take into consideration what the thread is about before arguing about what type of archetype a character is. I think it just proves your point about how it's hard to define a character in MK every time somebody argues the placement.

On another note, I would agree with sub zero leaning more towards a turtle character than anything. Just because he is forced to move in on certain characters (his bad match ups form the most part) doesn't mean that he's a rush down character. He plays best in matches where he can play his turtle/slowly back you to the corner game.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Doesn't this pretty much prove the point of the thread?

 

[bettyswallaux]

Originally a turtle but later turned into a mix of turtle/rushdown. In some matchups he does both, depending on the life lead and in most he just chases since the game's so busted up.

Hes a FUCKING TURTLE, stop trying to argue for the sake of it man

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

sadira is a vortex character? damn ive been playing her wrong the whole time i do agree with everything you said besides sadira being a vortex character. Also i like to add for those saying that not every charactr should have a fireball i dont agree cause thats mk tradiotion and it should stay like that. In the new KI characters that had projectiles dont anymore but keep in mind that another company did the game and not the original devs. Ed boon still is the one working on his game and i dont think he will remove projectiles from his characters

Your the master of KI here
...not me. What is she?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

What about how this applies to mk10? That's where I want this to go.

How can character individuality be archetyped and balanced better before hand. What archetypes would you like your favorite characters to be?

@CD jr what would you like to see rain and jax be

 

[Big Pampering]

Hes a FUCKING TURTLE, stop trying to argue for the sake of it man

Tell me which matchups he wins by turtling.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

You remember meat in MKA? he was a grappler with cleavers. Kind of like Grundy but he had a great comand throw. I was one of the beat meats around. Anyways...back on track

I want NW to be more of a zoner with good normals. Give him a decent projectile and reflect and normals that space well. But make him slower with his best mobility from shoulder.

Raiden was designed well in my opinion

These are my two favorites.

This is why I loved MKD because the fighting styles gave everyone individuality that made sense to them. Bo rai cho with drunken style was awesome!!!

 

[SAREDODEVIL]

No idea. What is he?

yes he is, and i think jax is grappler too

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

yes he is, and i think jax is grappler too

He is what?

And jax didn't have any actual grabs that were unblockable. If that is the case than NW and raiden are grapplers too.

 

[bettyswallaux]

Tell me which matchups he wins by turtling.

Subby sucks, he only wins a couple by turtling. He has a lot of losing match ups, as you already know, but he can go toe to toe with some by turtling, I'm not going to into specific match ups because there's no point arguing. He IS a turtle character, tell me who he "beats" by rushing down?

 

[TakeAChance]

sadira is a vortex character? damn ive been playing her wrong the whole time i do agree with everything you said besides sadira being a vortex character. Also i like to add for those saying that not every charactr should have a fireball i dont agree cause thats mk tradiotion and it should stay like that. In the new KI characters that had projectiles dont anymore but keep in mind that another company did the game and not the original devs. Ed boon still is the one working on his game and i dont think he will remove projectiles from his characters

Funny enough, I haven't been playing KI much lately (been busy with life) and as soon as I read she was a vortex character I took to youtube to see if there were any lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Funny enough, I haven't been playing KI much lately (been busy with life) and as soon as I read she was a vortex character I took to youtube to see if there were any lol

She is a left to right vortex in my eyes. Not low to overhead. What am I missing? How would you classify her?

 

[TakeAChance]

She is a left to right vortex in my eyes. Not low to overhead. What am I missing? How would you classify her?

She doesn't have a true vortex. Her best vortex potential at all would come from a back throw.

She has nothing that's guaranteed I don't believe.

I view Sadira as a bait and counter character. Bait wakeups...counter. Bait srk's....counter. Bait throw techs....counter. etc.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I feel like these games are designed by experiment.. So rather than creating a bunch of neatly-partitioned characters they just throw things in because they're fun and see what they do. The issue with this, is that if you do things that way, you have to come in a year or so later and re-balance based on the way things actually turned out.

Here's an example: Joker

I feel like Joker's balancing reflects the fact that the game designers gave him some crazy teeth oki, and then refrained from giving him any better tools because "this might be broken". Even when the balance patch came, he hardly got any help, presumably because "his oki still might be too good". By now, it seems pretty clear where he stands; but the patches are done, and the fear of the Joker experiment resulting in a broken character kept him from receiving needed help.

if your game design is an experiment, then keeping it balanced requires making long-term adjustments over time, rather than trying to predict in the first couple of months how the experiment will turn out.

(Similarly, I think Deathstroke's trait was put in the experimental "might be broken category".. So it was assumed he could be over the edge. The fear of creating something OP seems to have kept them from adjusting his trait to be more useful).

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Let's use another example in cyborg purest zoner and probably best example of this archetype. His pressure has holes and is slow but everything he does pushes you full screes to allow for zoning.

I'd say he is a good character design for zoner.

Ares is another good example of a counter zoner

But when you have counter zoners and zoners in the same character, why pick ares or cyborg.

 

[Big Pampering]

Subby sucks, he only wins a couple by turtling. He has a lot of losing match ups, as you already know, but he can go toe to toe with some by turtling, I'm not going to into specific match ups because there's no point arguing. He IS a turtle character, tell me who he "beats" by rushing down?

lol just admit you don't know what youre talking about, all you had to do was name some characters. He can't turtle against half the cast at least: ermac, kenshi, kabal, sektor, noob, freddy, reptile, smoke, cyrax and more will all destroy him if you try to turtle. Suzbero is a character you can't label clear cut as rushdown, zoning, turtle or whatever. A big part of subzero's game is taking the opponent to the corner, that alone should disqualify him as a turtle character, I think there are only a handful of matchups where he can turtle like the kitana and cyber sub matchup where you get the lifelead and start to turtle.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

lol just admit you don't know what youre talking about, all you had to do was name some characters. He can't turtle against half the cast at least: ermac, kenshi, kabal, sektor, noob, freddy, reptile, smoke, cyrax and more will all destroy him if you try to turtle. Suzbero is a character you can't label clear cut as rushdown, zoning, turtle or whatever. A big part of subzero's game is taking the opponent to the corner, that alone should disqualify him as a turtle character, I think there are only a handful of matchups where he can turtle like the kitana and cyber sub matchup where you get the lifelead and start to turtle.

I would completely disagree. A turtle character can try to put you in the corner too. Tom Brady always says that subzero is unlike any other character in any other fighting game. His ice clone allows him to push you to the corner while he is turtling.

 

[bettyswallaux]

lol just admit you don't know what youre talking about, all you had to do was name some characters. He can't turtle against half the cast at least: ermac, kenshi, kabal, sektor, noob, freddy, reptile, smoke, cyrax and more will all destroy him if you try to turtle. Suzbero is a character you can't label clear cut as rushdown, zoning, turtle or whatever. A big part of subzero's game is taking the opponent to the corner, that alone should disqualify him as a turtle character, I think there are only a handful of matchups where he can turtle like the kitana and cyber sub matchup where you get the lifelead and start to turtle.

Just admit you dont know what YOUR talking about, what is the first thing i said? I said sub zero sucks, I didn't say he can win many matches by turtling, I simply said he IS a turling character, what's the point of me naming characters he beats/loses to when all it does is cause arguments?. Subby is a shitter, but he is also a turtle

Edit: @AK L0rdoftheFLY beat me to it.