Fighting game archetypes and the next MK: A better way to balance

[SAREDODEVIL]

stryker counter zoner and footsie

 

[VenomX-90]

I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?

I only remember that he had 60% damage combos or close to that. And his force push was more abusable and safe.

But what people say is OP on month 1 rarely matters anyway.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I didn't say he can, I said he must play however he can deal with the current matchup.

i mean

welcome to fighting games.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.

she was balanced

you just described a balanced character

 

[Chuckychuck]

That's false for MK9 and for Subzero.

Subzero is whatever the matchup allows him to be.

I also main Sub.

If you disagree and wanna compare playstyles then go ahead and turtle kenshi, kabal, freddy, noob, smoke etc

In MK9 Sub Zero was the turtle that could not be

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.

Good reasons and sound logic. I would agree that she isn't a pure zoner but that might place her with kabal and kang.

But even though she want the best zoner or rush down...she was still better at both than 90% of the cast. Lol. This is a perfect example of the above.


NRS is making characters design with little thought to the archetype and balancing afterwards. (I know this is true). This is not the way to make a fighting game fundamentally solid

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Good reasons and sound logic. I would agree that she isn't a pure zoner but that might place her with kabal and kang.

But even though she want the best zoner or rush down...she was still better at both than 90% of the cast. Lol. This is a perfect example of the above.


NRS is making characters design with little thought to the archetype and balancing afterwards. (I know this is true). This is not the way to make a fighting game fundamentally solid

i mean... to be fair... they did us all fan service by basically bringing EVERY move they've given most of the cast and just tried to make it work.

Now they know.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

i mean... to be fair... they did us all fan service by basically bringing EVERY move they've given most of the cast and just tried to make it work.

Now they know.

Do they?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Do they?

mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

lol

 

[Derpin Errday]

not really.. a d4 is a "poking tool" a blade charge that could be punished is not

A blade charge properly spaced is safe.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Do they?

I'm with you. Wait and see. Because some of the seemingly arbitrary decisions about the properties of certain moves are head-scratchers to me. There's a lot you could mention.

Like why does Noob (the zoner) recover from projectiles like he does, but a character like Jax recovers like he does?

Or, as a Sub player, I always looked at Ice Blast vs. Net: You have two projectile disablers. Both travel roughly the same speed....

But let's make one of them cover 5x the vertical space as the other... AND let's make it come out faster... AND let's make it recover faster... AND let's give it to the character with the better normals and quadruple the damage output...

Now, Ice Blast vs. Net wasn't really a huge deal... but it makes you wonder why some of these move properties were distributed the way they were. Weird stuff like that all over the game.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I'm with you. Wait and see. Because some of the seemingly arbitrary decisions about the properties of certain moves are head-scratchers to me. There's a lot you could mention.

Like why does Noob (the zoner) recover from projectiles like he does, but a character like Jax recovers like he does?

Or, as a Sub player, I always looked at Ice Blast vs. Net: You have two projectile disablers. Both travel roughly the same speed....

But let's make one of them cover 5x the vertical space as the other... AND let's make it come out faster... AND let's make it recover faster... AND let's give it to the character with the better normals and quadruple the damage output...

Now, Ice Blast vs. Net wasn't really a huge deal... but it makes you wonder why some of these move properties were distributed the way they were. Weird stuff like that all over the game.

Yup I agree 9001%

 

[Killphil]

I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?

Off topic: his f4 gave enough hit advantage to charge b2. I don't recall if it was an infinite or not though. I don't think it was but it was a problem. lol

 

[VenomX-90]

I only remember that he had 60% damage combos or close to that. And his force push was more abusable and safe.

But what people say is OP on month 1 rarely matters anyway.

Yeah that Force Push works wonders though.

 

[SAREDODEVIL]

rain is antizoner?

 

[Wemfs]

I think nightwolf needs his own category 'spend the entire match blocking whilst praying for a mistake' character.

ROFL!

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

rain is antizoner?

No idea. What is he?

 

[Error]

I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?

He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.

Off topic: his f4 gave enough hit advantage to charge b2. I don't recall if it was an infinite or not though. I don't think it was but it was a problem. lol

I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.

 

[STRYKIE]

He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.


I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.

Wasn't 2,2xxLift being a true combo kinda redundant considering standing 1 covers more range and is faster on startup? I guess it might've been slightly more hit-confirmable than 1,2 though.

 

[Error]

Wasn't 2,2xxLift being a true combo kinda redundant considering standing 1 covers more range and is faster on startup? I guess it might've been slightly more hit-confirmable than 1,2 though.

It was pretty redundant, I was just listing it because I guess it was a "nerf" although it didn't really affect him.

Remember all the bitching that ensued when Cage lost F3,2xxNut Punch combos? That was hilarious.

 

[STRYKIE]

It was pretty redundant, I was just listing it because I guess it was a "nerf" although it didn't really affect him.

Fair enough.

 

[VenomX-90]

He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.


I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.

I remember I was fighting online with someone and I was using Ermac and while he was on the ground I used the tele lift and the guy messaged me saying I "Cheated" lol

 

[STRYKIE]

Remember all the bitching that ensued when Cage lost F3,2xxNut Punch combos? That was hilarious.

Also yes, I think he dropped like 20 spots in the tier list despite the fact that F3,3 served the exact same purpose lol.