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Fighting game archetypes and the next MK: A better way to balance

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.
she was balanced

you just described a balanced character :)
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Kitana was more of a turtle than a zoner. Don't get me wrong, she could definitely zone, and it was detrimental if she caught you with it, but her zoning was average at best compared to others like Kabal, Kenshi, Freddy, even Sindel.

Your definition said Zoners lacked forward mobility and speed, yet Kitana had the fastest dash in the game next to Cage. She had no problem closing space with her dash cancels.

Reason why I think she was a turtle (in your definition) was due to the fact she had a superior ground game, thanks to her long and advancing normals. Not only were the decently quick, but they built their own spacing on block or hit, safe on block, and set up counter poke options and whiff punishes, something Kitana was famous for. This rewarded her with high damage and gave her the option to set up zoning if she chooses too.

Could rush but not the best at it, could zone but not the best at it. When it came to waiting, playing the footsie game, whiff punishing, and scoring huge damage, she was really good at that, which is why I think she was more of a turtle than a zoner.
Good reasons and sound logic. I would agree that she isn't a pure zoner but that might place her with kabal and kang.

But even though she want the best zoner or rush down...she was still better at both than 90% of the cast. Lol. This is a perfect example of the above.


NRS is making characters design with little thought to the archetype and balancing afterwards. (I know this is true). This is not the way to make a fighting game fundamentally solid
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Good reasons and sound logic. I would agree that she isn't a pure zoner but that might place her with kabal and kang.

But even though she want the best zoner or rush down...she was still better at both than 90% of the cast. Lol. This is a perfect example of the above.


NRS is making characters design with little thought to the archetype and balancing afterwards. (I know this is true). This is not the way to make a fighting game fundamentally solid
i mean... to be fair... they did us all fan service by basically bringing EVERY move they've given most of the cast and just tried to make it work.

Now they know.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
I'm with you. Wait and see. Because some of the seemingly arbitrary decisions about the properties of certain moves are head-scratchers to me. There's a lot you could mention.

Like why does Noob (the zoner) recover from projectiles like he does, but a character like Jax recovers like he does?

Or, as a Sub player, I always looked at Ice Blast vs. Net: You have two projectile disablers. Both travel roughly the same speed....

But let's make one of them cover 5x the vertical space as the other... AND let's make it come out faster... AND let's make it recover faster... AND let's give it to the character with the better normals and quadruple the damage output...

Now, Ice Blast vs. Net wasn't really a huge deal... but it makes you wonder why some of these move properties were distributed the way they were. Weird stuff like that all over the game.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I'm with you. Wait and see. Because some of the seemingly arbitrary decisions about the properties of certain moves are head-scratchers to me. There's a lot you could mention.

Like why does Noob (the zoner) recover from projectiles like he does, but a character like Jax recovers like he does?

Or, as a Sub player, I always looked at Ice Blast vs. Net: You have two projectile disablers. Both travel roughly the same speed....

But let's make one of them cover 5x the vertical space as the other... AND let's make it come out faster... AND let's make it recover faster... AND let's give it to the character with the better normals and quadruple the damage output...

Now, Ice Blast vs. Net wasn't really a huge deal... but it makes you wonder why some of these move properties were distributed the way they were. Weird stuff like that all over the game.
Yup I agree 9001%
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?
Off topic: his f4 gave enough hit advantage to charge b2. I don't recall if it was an infinite or not though. I don't think it was but it was a problem. lol
 

Error

DF2+R2
I heard before the patches and updates that Ermac was OP or high tier, was that true?
He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.

Off topic: his f4 gave enough hit advantage to charge b2. I don't recall if it was an infinite or not though. I don't think it was but it was a problem. lol
I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.


I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.
Wasn't 2,2xxLift being a true combo kinda redundant considering standing 1 covers more range and is faster on startup? I guess it might've been slightly more hit-confirmable than 1,2 though.
 

Error

DF2+R2
Wasn't 2,2xxLift being a true combo kinda redundant considering standing 1 covers more range and is faster on startup? I guess it might've been slightly more hit-confirmable than 1,2 though.
It was pretty redundant, I was just listing it because I guess it was a "nerf" although it didn't really affect him.

Remember all the bitching that ensued when Cage lost F3,2xxNut Punch combos? That was hilarious.
 

VenomX-90

"On your Knees!"
He could combo 22xlift on a grounded opponent, push was safer on block and you couldn't jump to avoid it. Damage nerf was universal. I honestly think he should have kept his lift, especially with Kenshi having his charge later on.


I don't know if this ever actually made it past testing, but it was an infinite.
I remember I was fighting online with someone and I was using Ermac and while he was on the ground I used the tele lift and the guy messaged me saying I "Cheated" lol
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Remember all the bitching that ensued when Cage lost F3,2xxNut Punch combos? That was hilarious.
Also yes, I think he dropped like 20 spots in the tier list despite the fact that F3,3 served the exact same purpose lol.