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Fighting game archetypes and the next MK: A better way to balance

Just admit you dont know what YOUR talking about, what is the first thing i said? I said sub zero sucks, I didn't say he can win many matches by turtling, I simply said he IS a turling character, what's the point of me naming characters he beats/loses to when all it does is cause arguments?. Subby is a shitter, but he is also a turtle :)

Edit: @AK L0rdoftheFLY beat me to it.
When 60%-80% his matchups dont involve him turtling how does that make him a turtle character?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
almost all his match ups aresub zero trying to do damage and run, just because kenshi and a few others destroy his turling game doesnt mean he isnt a turtle.
Chars he has to chase

Reptile
Noob
Ermac
Smoke
Cyrax
Sektor
Sonya with lead
Stryker
Liu Kang
Kung Lao
Scorpion
Kabal
Shang
Raiden
Skarlet
Freddy
Kitana
Sindel
Kenshi

Characters that he has to chase based on lifelead
Cage
Kitana
Sonya
Jax
Cyber sub
Kano
Nightwolf


Please continue to tell me what my own character is or who he has to chase. I'm curious as to what "almost all" matchups he's trying to turtle in.

I'll say this one more time.

Sub archetype - turtle

Game patches - Done fucked it

Sub actual role - rushdown while not designed for it

Sub secondary role - turtle with lifelead vs some of the cast

You people really didn't ever take a look at Brady's vids or what he practically preached.
 
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What about how this applies to mk10? That's where I want this to go.

How can character individuality be archetyped and balanced better before hand. What archetypes would you like your favorite characters to be?

@CD jr what would you like to see rain and jax be
I honesty always felt that Stryker was pretty well designed overall. He didn't really need good 50/50s. It's just that unfortunately for him a bunch of characters were retarded by design. But in an imaginary MK9 where top 10 isn't so broken he would be perfectly fine and tourney viable.

I'd love his archetype to remain mostly a counter zoner. But with better footsies. EX Roll Toss should do good damage because you can't combo off it like many can off their counter zone move. And Baton Sweep should be godlike. Like it should be his main mid-range tool. Quick and safish high crush baton attacks but nothing retarded like Rolento lol. His standing 4 should be one of the better anti-airs and standing 3 should be a full low-crush. Also I hope he has some kind of tazer attack either at mid-range or sweep range. I hope he can still hold and cancel his guns but they should remain pretty weak for zoning and mostly be for meter building and mind games. He should throw his low grenade lower and his high grenade lower.

However if they make Stryker a specialized zoner, then gun shots and grenades need to be a lot better and do more damage. He needs to have a long range tazer attack. Also if characters have trait, his should be placing a C4 which would basically work like Cyrax's grenades but with a bigger hitbox and more damage. You make them explode by remote. But of course you would only able to have one on the screen and the trait would take some time to recharge. His trait could also be a drone he calls in that serves as AA or shoots low/overhead...

I'm getting excited just thinking about it. :)
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Reptile
Noob
Ermac
Smoke
Cyrax
Sektor
Sonya with lead
Stryker
Liu Kang
Kung Lao
Scorpion
Kabal
Shang
Raiden
Skarlet
Freddy
Kitana
Sindel

Characters that he has to chase based on lifelead
Cage
Kitana
Sonya
Jax
Cyber sub
Kano
Nightwolf


Please continue to tell me what my own character is or who he has to chase. I'm curious as to what "almost all" matchups he's trying to turtle in.

I'll say this one more time.

Sub archetype - turtle

Game patches - Done fucked it

Sub actual role - rushdown while not designed for it

Sub secondary role - turtle with lifelead vs some of the cast

You people really didn't ever take a look at Brady's vids or what he practically preached.
Just curious, what is the first list referring to?


I honesty always felt that Stryker was pretty well designed overall. He didn't really need good 50/50s. It's just that unfortunately for him a bunch of characters were retarded by design. But in an imaginary MK9 where top 10 isn't so broken he would be perfectly fine and tourney viable.

I'd love his archetype to remain mostly a counter zoner. But with better footsies. EX Roll Toss should do good damage because you can't combo off it like many can off their counter zone move. And Baton Sweep should be godlike. Like it should be his main mid-range tool. Quick and safish high crush baton attacks but nothing retarded like Rolento lol. His standing 4 should be one of the better anti-airs and standing 3 should be a full low-crush. Also I hope he has some kind of tazer attack either at mid-range or sweep range. I hope he can still hold and cancel his guns but they should remain pretty weak for zoning and mostly be for meter building and mind games. He should throw his low grenade lower and his high grenade lower.

However if they make Stryker a specialized zoner, then gun shots and grenades need to be a lot better and do more damage. He needs to have a long range tazer attack. Also if characters have trait, his should be placing a C4 which would basically work like Cyrax's grenades but with a bigger hitbox and more damage. You make them explode by remote. But of course you would only able to have one on the screen and the trait would take some time to recharge. His trait could also be a drone he calls in that serves as AA or shoots low/overhead...

I'm getting excited just thinking about it. :)
I don't see how a character who has a 16 frame high as their fastest combo starter, string gaps so massive that some characters don't even need to use meter to interrupt, Johnny Cage projectiles that don't have a plus on block derivative and his fastest normal being the most redundant universal normal in the game is good character design no matter how much blame you try to place on the top 10.

The only way Stryker could've been salvaged IMO within the confines of what softcoded patches could address would be if he was turned into Vanilla Deathstroke.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Just curious, what is the first list referring to?



I don't see how a character who has a 16 frame high as their fastest combo starter, string gaps so massive that some characters don't even need to use meter to interrupt, Johnny Cage projectiles that don't have a plus on block derivative and his fastest normal being the most redundant universal normal in the game is good character design no matter how much blame you try to place on the top 10.

The only way Stryker could've been salvaged IMO within the confines of what softcoded patches could address would be if he was turned into Vanilla Deathstroke.
Characters he is forced to chase down.
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Ya MK9 characters are kinda all over the place and don't really fit in specific archetypes. They stayed too true to the MK1-3 versions of the characters and tried to design them around their specials.

Injustice was somewhat better since they started from scratch with everyone, but it ended up having the same master of all super character problem as MK9 did.

They really do need to stop doing that, no matter how balanced you can make the low tiers, the super characters are always going to be more appealing and dominate just by the nature of their design.

IDK maybe it's just me, but with MK9 and now Injustice, it feels like they are playing favorites with characters, some characters just got way more time and effort into their design then others.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Ya MK9 characters are kinda all over the place and don't really fit in specific archetypes. They stayed too true to the MK1-3 versions of the characters and tried to design them around their specials.

Injustice was somewhat better since they started from scratch with everyone, but it ended up having the same master of all super character problem as MK9 did.

They really do need to stop doing that, no matter how balanced you can make the low tiers, the super characters are always going to be more appealing and dominate just by the nature of their design.

IDK maybe it's just me, but with MK9 and now Injustice, it feels like they are playing favorites with characters, some characters just got way more time and effort into their design then others.
Some of the best characters DLC though, which one would assume they spend less time on.
 

CD jr

Noob
What about how this applies to mk10? That's where I want this to go.

How can character individuality be archetyped and balanced better before hand. What archetypes would you like your favorite characters to be?

@CD jr what would you like to see rain and jax be
I want rain to be a hybrid of anti zoning and rushdown and jax to be full rushdown and ALL his strings hit lol.
 

bettyswallaux

XBOXLive: BettySwallaux
Chars he has to chase

Reptile
Noob
Erma
Smoke
Cyrax
Sektor
Sonya with lead
Stryker
Liu Kang
Kung Lao
Scorpion
Kabal
Shang
Raiden
Skarlet
Freddy
Kitana
Sindel
Kenshi

Characters that he has to chase based on lifelead
Cage
Kitana
Sonya
Jax
Cyber sub
Kano
Nightwolf


Please continue to tell me what my own character is or who he has to chase. I'm curious as to what "almost all" matchups he's trying to turtle in.

I'll say this one more time.

Sub archetype - turtle

Game patches - Done fucked it

Sub actual role - rushdown while not designed for it

Sub secondary role - turtle with lifelead vs some of the cast

You people really didn't ever take a look at Brady's vids or what he practically preached.
Wait a minute I said sub zero is a shitter, but his design is a turtle, I didnt say he doesnt have to chase most of the cast, but your telling me if you get a 50-60% lifelead on lao your not going to run and try keep your life lead? good luck trying to rush down lao with subby man..
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
As crazy as it sounds... I'd put Kitana in the balanced/grappler categories. A lot of her gameplay and strategy revolves around her forward throw and superior footsies way more than her zoning... that style is very 2011.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Ya MK9 characters are kinda all over the place and don't really fit in specific archetypes. They stayed too true to the MK1-3 versions of the characters and tried to design them around their specials.

Injustice was somewhat better since they started from scratch with everyone, but it ended up having the same master of all super character problem as MK9 did.

They really do need to stop doing that, no matter how balanced you can make the low tiers, the super characters are always going to be more appealing and dominate just by the nature of their design.

IDK maybe it's just me, but with MK9 and now Injustice, it feels like they are playing favorites with characters, some characters just got way more time and effort into their design then others.
The main issue with cramming characters into neat categories is simple: Counter-Picking.

If the DEVs didn't try to give each character a way to handle their respective counter pick class then tournament play might as well be who wins the first match.

I think from THAT mentality the "super characters" are born. It seems like it stems from an attempt to balance a character out but still have them be able to compete on all fronts but inadvertently gives them too many options I.e Kabal...

But in reality what "super characters" are truly in MK9? Kenshi has great zoning and fuck tons of armor but pretty much all his good strings start with a 12 frame move. Cyrax is only broken because of resets. Without his resets and if his ex bomb combos were scaled down he would be good but not number 2. Sonya has good pressure and a good projectile but take away her ex kart wheel or make it like -20 on block and she would be easier to deal with...

Really imo the only "super characters" in MK9 are Kabal and Freddy... but even Freddy has a 3-7 mu.....
 
Wait a minute I said sub zero is a shitter, but his design is a turtle, I didnt say he doesnt have to chase most of the cast, but your telling me if you get a 50-60% lifelead on lao your not going to run and try keep your life lead? good luck trying to rush down lao with subby man..
just stop man, he listed 80% of the cast which he can't turtle, he doesnt play a turtle style in those matchups. I guess kung lao is a zoning character just because he has to keep away from cage, that is basically your logic.
 

bettyswallaux

XBOXLive: BettySwallaux
just stop man, he listed 80% of the cast which he can't turtle, he doesnt play a turtle style in those matchups. I guess kung lao is a zoning character just because he has to keep away from cage, that is basically your logic.
Now our putting words in my mouth? So cant we discuss like grown ups then or are you going to just be an ass?
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
just stop man, he listed 80% of the cast which he can't turtle, he doesnt play a turtle style in those matchups. I guess kung lao is a zoning character just because he has to keep away from cage, that is basically your logic.
I'm going to end this for all of you. Sub Zero was a failed attempt to create a turtle. He was obviously designed to control space and run with a life lead. However with the inclusion of superior zoners and characters with shit loads of armor he was outclassed and forced to evolve into a half assed rush down character, hence why he is B tier.

That being said he is a turtle character. Just because he is forced to rush characters down does not mean he is a rush down character. This is the whole reason he has so many bad MUs. If Sub Zero could effectively play the way he was designed he would be an A tier turtle.

If you don't belive me just picture how Sub Zero would play if his ice ball was significantly faster and could effectively trade with zoners and 90% of the casts armor was taken away.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
I always referred to Sub-Zero as a "tank" character. He doesn't really "rush." And you find that you only get so far if you try to simply "turtle" with him. He occupies space and slowly cuts the screen down for the opponent. He's got to keep moving forward, but he doesn't "rush down." I rarely saw players use him like that, though. A lot of players liked to set up Clone and run away. Even more players liked to try to play him like he was Johny Cage or Sonya. Neither of those styles were very effective from my experience.

It's really hard to label Sub-Zero. The Clone is so unique. It's essentially setting up a wall, but you don't just "hide" behind it. You have to be proactive. Moving forward like a tank.

The only match-ups he approached as a turtle were like the mirror or Cage or Kitana (which was fucking retarded).
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
If you don't belive me just picture how Sub Zero would play if his ice ball was significantly faster and could effectively trade with zoners and 90% of the casts armor was taken away.
His Ice Blast was right on. If it was faster it'd likely be super broken. It already traded well with (most) zoners if you knew how to get ice on the screen. If it started up like Noob's projectiles or something, nobody would touch their fireballs against him.

And armor is a way to get through the Ice Clone. But just because a character has armor doesn't mean he beats Sub-Zero.