Question - Cyber Sub-Zero Ever Get That Feeling of Deja Vu? TYM hasn't learned

[omooba]

Learn how to block his hard to blockables. Cyrax doesn't need a nerf at all.

drunk

Hard to blockables in this game aren't a thing you learn to block.

wtf? yes they are. if you know how to block they become a 50/50 and the only options he is a 50/50 is b2

 

[KingJerm731]

This knee jerk, half retarded reaction to this character is really making me lose faith in the community. You people are insane. The same behavior gets repeated over and over with the same results. Half of you bitching about cyber sub don't even know the vanilla matchups.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

On the other end, people jump on DLC characters and spend their entire life learning them then get so salty when they get nerfed. In reality, he may or may not be OP, we just don't have enough data yet but naturally, the conversation will arise. This should be expected. Just as annoying as people crying for nerfs are those swearing up and down that their characters they have been playing for all of two days are completely balanced.

I usually don't even touch DLC characters for a few weeks at least.

 

[omooba]

Says someone who hasn't been in the lab. If you had, you'd know that he can throw you into the bomb trap, so merely guessing low->high/high->low won't save you or "allow you to block".

Thus everyone saying "just block" has no idea how this works.

feel like people who say just block are trying to make it sound more like a 50/50 which most characters can armor out of which i believe it is. we know you can grab for full combo but can everyone else with a hard to blockable do that?

I also love how everyone and even the OP was probably in favor of Summoner nerfs and now that he likes a char that is better than summoner he is defending it lol.

how would you say he's better than summoner was dude come on

Everyone can at least agree that his recovery on ice ball is ridiculous. Imagine if sub zeros was that fast ggs

i would agree if sextors missles weren't a thing. this man would hit you, what all episodes of monkey d luffy (including fillers) and still run up for full combo

You can't teach yourself to block stuff like this. It is pure guess work. Block and hope. It's stupid and it shouldn't be a part of the meta.

yes you can. honeslt the only thing i'm scared of when i get put in this set up is will he grab, and teching is easier now, so better players than me will tech on reaction. dude trust me just go to practice and look at this

 

[Helter Skelter]

how is he dirty? you guys are being ridiculous. hard to blockables are here to stay in mkx. you wanna nerf him? nerf quan, takeda and jacqui along with him. stop using hard to blockables are a reason for nerf especially seeing as his is one of the few where he acting has to using armor to break armor

Well, all of those characters need to spend one bar of meter to cause those situations to occur.

You don't even have to adjust anything frame wise on CSZ, Cyrax, etc. Just make it Mid without a bar and Low/Overhead at the cost of a bar.

Tremor got the frames on his Rock Drop and Rock Shower wrecked when all they really needed to do was make the damn thing hit Mid and be Overhead at the cost of a bar.

I can deal with 50/50s but not with meterless Hard-To-Blockables.

There's nothing with H2Bs existing. Just not in the way they are now.

 

[omooba]

I can deal with 50/50s but not with meterless Hard-To-Blockables.

why? they're the same if you've practiced how to block them. and imo the oly real 50/50 hardto blockable is off b2 and grab.
also armor gets you out of this. you can't consistently armor takeda's shit. i don't even think you're supposed to be able to.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Why is Smoke's ball a mid and not low?

Smoke bomb has to just be mid because its safe, and we need it to be safe to compensate for the smaller damage.

 

[Yinze]

Yeah you are right, they need to buff smoke bomb.

Yes please!

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

why? they're the same if you've practiced how to block them. and imo the oly real 50/50 hardto blockable is off b2 and grab.
also armor gets you out of this. you can't consistently armor takeda's shit. i don't even think you're supposed to be able to.

So I'm guessing you block Quan's hard to blockable 9/10 times?

 

[the.hamburglar]

So I'm guessing you block Quan's hard to blockable 9/10 times?

Fuck that shit, I doubt anyone blocks Quan 9/10, prolly not even 3/10

 

[Yak]

There are options against this Lin-Kuei fella. Though it seems that after sonic fox uses a character in a tournament usually a nerf for that character pops up shortly after....

Certain stuff should be nerfed pretty quickly though, infinites, some damage scaling possibly if there is clearly something too much damage a character is getting on certain stuff.

 

[the.hamburglar]

There are options against this Lin-Kuei fella. Though it seems that after sonic fox uses a character in a tournament usually a nerf for that character pops up shortly after....

Certain stuff should be nerfed pretty quickly though, infinites, some damage scaling possibly if there is clearly something too much damage a character is getting on certain stuff.

ermac block infinite even though nobody uses it

 

[the.hamburglar]

Just to clear up the confusion, Whats "broken" with CSZ ( saying hes braindead is irrelevant )

 

[Eldriken]

ermac block infinite even though nobody uses it

I thought that was fixed?

 

[the.hamburglar]

I thought that was fixed?

i heard it came with the beta but they didnt remove it, not 100% sure

 

[Eldriken]

i heard it came with the beta but they didnt remove it, not 100% sure

I believe someone said that NRS admitted it was a mistake and fixed it. Remember, everything in the beta didn't transfer over to the real patch. That's probably why you're not seeing it at all. There were people on the beta that specifically picked him for that very reason and no Ermac player I've come across recently has tried it once.

 

[the.hamburglar]

I believe someone said that NRS admitted it was a mistake and fixed it. Remember, everything in the beta didn't transfer over to the real patch. That's probably why you're not seeing it at all. There were people on the beta that specifically picked him for that very reason and no Ermac player I've come across recently has tried it once.

good point, i meant i heard it transferred over to the actual game. guess not

 

[omooba]

So I'm guessing you block Quan's hard to blockable 9/10 times?

quan's is always a 50/50 because with all the different ways he does the hard to blockables he can combo off low-overhead and overhead-low. other than with b2 subzero can't. and he gets the least dmg with b2 and he needs to keep you there an additional second or half a second after you get up to do the b2 mix so to answer your question if i know what mix up quan is going to do i can bloke it 7/10 of the times. and i'm pretty sure pro's can block it 10/10 if they know what mix up he will do.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I honestly have no trouble with the unblockable setup.

My issue lies with the stupidly fast and safe dive kick and the really fast ice ball.

If he were to be nerfed, the two things I'd want changed is for dive kick to be more negative on block (maybe make him land right next to the opponent instead?) and for ice ball to be 4-5 frames slower.

The unblockables aren't even the issue here.


This is of course not even addressing the bullshit that is butcher leather face (like an improved batgirl holy fuck), acidic alien (stupid zoning, stupid tick damage, stupid range) and cyrax (whose 50/50s are actually much harder to block/escape from). Bo Rai Cho also looks stupidly good but I haven't been able to lab him and test out his stuff as much as the others.

There are a lot of really strong tactics within the new DLC. Although they look super cool I can't help but feel they've purposely made them overpowered to encourage sales. Hopefully we'll see them toned down to a more reasonable level in the future.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

In MKX sz was mid tier, he was high but not after clone disappeared on block. SZ became a crazy character.. dominated a few characters but got death matched by several characters. SZ's core just didnt work, he became a one trick pony which is why the best place he has ever got at big USA majors was 9th on 3 occasions. The rest of the time the character placed in the top 16/32 and on 2 players ever did that in the USA at big majors. I could see you're point if the SZ army was all up in top 16 but usually there is just one.

In MKXL he got a MAJOR buff in the close Clone Toss and the timer change REALLY helps him in those death matches, 2 of which also received buffs of their own (D'Vorah and F/T) so he really needed the help. SZ is made to chase you if you are a character who runs away from him but he also needs to be able to lame you out if you are a character that abuses him in close. He did not have the ability to lame out anyone when rounds last 4 minutes. He was also just a raw 50/50 character of which several characters punished him clone or no clone. He just had no answer for guessing wrong. He didnt have traps, he just had a 50/50 and it wasnt even like it was in open space, it was only in the corner. Oh yea.. lets not forget that it was REALLY hard for him to do combos on female characters in MKX.

I really like him in MKXL now that he is a more complete character.

Anyway.. point was that people ABSOLUTELY overreacted to SZ, going as far as asking for nerfs one week before the game even officially launched. With CSZ i'm not sure how broke he is or even if he is broke at all. While it is true that most people cry over lab, sometimes its obvious if a character is broke and sometimes looks can be deceiving.

Yeah people overreacted for sure, but didn't you say that you thought he was S tier, top ten pretty recently?

I must not understand how this works. Saying SZ is S tier and top 5-7 is downplaying?

I'm curious as to what changed your mind is all. I understand how XL made him way better, I know hes not broke or anything, the point I was trying to make in my first post is that I thought he turned out fine even after the nerfs, and NRS will probably do right with CSZ.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Your missing the entirety of my point. It's not about how good GM is now. That holds no merit to the actual conversation I'm trying to have right now.

The point is: The Witch Hunt of Sub-Zero we had then (GM) is entirely similar to the one we're having know (CSZ). He has a target on his back with people ready to fling concrete nerfs before the setups have actually been labbed by the community.

That is my issue here. Unbreakable has nothing to do with it. It was trash then and will remain trash. This is about the principle of the thing, the fact that TYM drones will parrot anything that supports a narrative who's engame meshes with theirs.

They don't want to deal with CSZ, and they might not ever have to. Meanwhile, Alien and Bo Rai Cho and Leatherface have equally scary bullshit but since @YOMI REO hasn't posted a video of them the pitchforks haven't come out yet.

I don't care if it isn't something people want to hear. I acknowledge that CSZ has a very strong corner game, but the reaction of TYM has been incredibly absurd.

Ok I kind of misunderstood the OP. I agree with this reasoning. Knee jerk reactions are never good and I can see the comparison you are drawing.

 

[vicious1024]

I honestly have no trouble with the unblockable setup.

My issue lies with the stupidly fast and safe dive kick and the really fast ice ball.

If he were to be nerfed, the two things I'd want changed is for dive kick to be more negative on block (maybe make him land right next to the opponent instead?) and for ice ball to be 4-5 frames slower.

The unblockables aren't even the issue here.

Hmm. What's the idea behind nerfing Ice Ball?

It seems like a pretty reactable high. It has comparable startup and travel speed to Ermac's Soul Ball and they serve the same purpose. The major difference is that Soul Ball is a mid and is more punishable on block.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Hmm. What's the idea behind nerfing Ice Ball?

It seems like a pretty reactable high. It has comparable startup and travel speed to Ermac's Soul Ball and they serve the same purpose. The major difference is that Soul Ball is a mid and is more punishable on block.

The issue is you can't trade with it because it gives him a full combo. Ermacs doesn't have this issue because after one his won't lead to full combo.

The other thing is that it's very safe, even on whiff lol.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

And I stand by it people cry need to stop whining day 1

for starters its like day 4, secondly you somehow still missed the fact that I didn't say that he needs nerfs or anything changed at all?

 

[vicious1024]

The issue is you can't trade with it because it gives him a full combo. Ermacs doesn't have this issue because after one his won't lead to full combo.

The other thing is that it's very safe, even on whiff lol.

Trade with what? If it isn't with something that has as much hit stun, Ermac can trade can trade almost as effectively as C.Sub. (C.Sub having 11 more frames to move.)

You can also barely react with a jump in to either of them, as you'll most likely get clipped while jumping at mid range.