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Strategy Doomsday's weaknesses.

bdizzle2700

gotta stay sharp!
Here is your explanation.

Its not about ES alone.

Its about ES, and d1, and venom, and anti air grab, and body splash, and trait.

When you have meter...and are in venom range....your opponent doesnt get to play the game.

Ill say it again.

They. Dont. Get. To. Play. The. Game.

They have to sit, and wait for your shoulder. So you essentially get to do whatever in gods name you want.

When you have trait up, your opponent again is forced to play your game.

Doomsday imposes his will constantly. ES just build meter. Its a safe string ender. Its a safe d1XXspecial.

DD wins because everyone has to sit and hold block while DD does whatever he wants, because they must respect shoulder.
This brought a tear to my eye. i agree.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
I'm probably gonna get mauled for asking this, but I've been wondering it for a while.

When facing an Aquaman player that's pretty good and knows the DD MU, what are my options against his water shield move if he's good with its use?

I mean, I can bait it out at times by making them use it when trying to react to what they think I'm gonna do and I throw 'em once it drops, but there are some players who just kick my ass with it because I don't know what all of my good options are against it.

Bait and/or wait? Is that pretty much it?
 

GGA Saucy Jack

The artist formerly known as ImNewbieSauce
I'm probably gonna get mauled for asking this, but I've been wondering it for a while.

When facing an Aquaman player that's pretty good and knows the DD MU, what are my options against his water shield move if he's good with its use?

I mean, I can bait it out at times by making them use it when trying to react to what they think I'm gonna do and I throw 'em once it drops, but there are some players who just kick my ass with it because I don't know what all of my good options are against it.

Bait and/or wait? Is that pretty much it?
I would hope you wouldnt get mauled for asking a question.

Personally, I like to wait a bit, and then try to time it so I start a string when its running out.

If he spends a bar to blow you up, thats one less bar for combos and MB coke head stab.

It can be troublesome if you hit it early, but my overall suggestion is be patient, and take your free damage near the end of its duration.

Not easy, I understand that. After I ran into my first aquaman who did that, I went to the lab to work on the timing. Its been better since.
 

GGA Saucy Jack

The artist formerly known as ImNewbieSauce
Noobe definitely knows what he is talking about with Doomsday, played him in a long set at TFC, and he knows his stuff. DD being like mileena is fine, because last time I checked, sonicfox was still putting in work with her even though everyone was supposed to have her (figured out).
Agreed. Noobe knows whats up.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
KF I agree 7-3.k
This is what I don't understand. I don't even think KF is 7-3. But she's basically a worse WW at this point. WW now has a vortex that does not require meter and ends off of a slight adjustment to her normal bnb. WW doesn't have to spend meter to full combo punish you after a parry, her parry also has less recovery frames than KF if my eye's aren't mistaken. Take that last part with a grain of salt though, I don't know the actual data. WW has a shit ton of frame traps off of her strings once she gets in, Doomsday can only swing out of one, and you're going to mess up your spacing at some point, no one in the NRS community is on Daigo's level. Her air dash is 10000x better than Frosts, and her back/forward dashes are better for getting in. Frosts dashes are longer and more active so she can run away, but LBSH, you're not running from Doomsday. WWs combos also do way more damage if she decides to go for that instead of the vortex for some odd reason. Let's say you're sitting just outside d1 range for poking, KF has slide and after slide it's a guess, but nothing is overhead, so you can crouch block until you see her dash. WW is a totally different story because she always has the threat of overhead whip in that same range. Both of their wake ups are ridiculous and lead into their bnb/vortex. You can react to all of Frost's floaty ass jumps with very little effort. But are you honestly saying you're going to grab EVERY d1 into instant air dash WW does? Because that's a little unrealistic. I'm not saying the match up is terrible or unwinnable by any means. But I do think you'd have to do a significant amount of outplaying to beat a character that has so many options to deal with Doomsday. And there's no way in hell Doomsday goes even with a fucking parry character. I understand upplaying, but this is a little out there.

"I played this player online and bodied them" Doesn't negate all the tools the tools that character has. 99% of people that play against Doomsday have no idea how to fight him anyway. I'd be more scared to fight a WW at NEC than I would be of any other character, and that's because of her tools.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Playing someone who knows the DD MU really well, is a good player and plays a character that has tools to make DD's tools useless = me being maaaad salty.

I don't care about MUs or anything, but I simply mentioned it in this post in regards to the other player knowing how DD works overall.
 
This is what I don't understand. I don't even think KF is 7-3. But she's basically a worse WW at this point. WW now has a vortex that does not require meter and ends off of a slight adjustment to her normal bnb. WW doesn't have to spend meter to full combo punish you after a parry, her parry also has less recovery frames than KF if my eye's aren't mistaken. Take that last part with a grain of salt though, I don't know the actual data. WW has a shit ton of frame traps off of her strings once she gets in, Doomsday can only swing out of one, and you're going to mess up your spacing at some point, no one in the NRS community is on Daigo's level. Her air dash is 10000x better than Frosts, and her back/forward dashes are better for getting in. Frosts dashes are longer and more active so she can run away, but LBSH, you're not running from Doomsday. WWs combos also do way more damage if she decides to go for that instead of the vortex for some odd reason. Let's say you're sitting just outside d1 range for poking, KF has slide and after slide it's a guess, but nothing is overhead, so you can crouch block until you see her dash. WW is a totally different story because she always has the threat of overhead whip in that same range. Both of their wake ups are ridiculous and lead into their bnb/vortex. You can react to all of Frost's floaty ass jumps with very little effort. But are you honestly saying you're going to grab EVERY d1 into instant air dash WW does? Because that's a little unrealistic. I'm not saying the match up is terrible or unwinnable by any means. But I do think you'd have to do a significant amount of outplaying to beat a character that has so many options to deal with Doomsday. And there's no way in hell Doomsday goes even with a fucking parry character. I understand upplaying, but this is a little out there.

"I played this player online and bodied them" Doesn't negate all the tools the tools that character has. 99% of people that play against Doomsday have no idea how to fight him anyway. I'd be more scared to fight a WW at NEC than I would be of any other character, and that's because of her tools.
honestly, WW doesn't seem like much of an issue. She has her tools yes, but I thought I'd have a huge advantage over a DD with her and I have been using her for a while now and know what i'm doing with her, played vs noobe and was like (damn I thought wrong lol). I don't think he loses that matchup because her zoning isn't that great, and those who don't have a good way to zone DD aren't going to be able to keep him out, that is just my opinion on that matchup. I feel he only loses to supes, DD, batman, KF, and maybe one other character and that is it. I think ppl think because he is a simple character, he isn't that dangerous. That's just my opinion on him overall, some overrate him and some underrate him and etc. but I think we all know he is tourney viable and that is what counts anyways.
 
I'm not sure, but isn't it possible for Batman and DD to be 5-5 now? They nerfed b2,3 on whiff now and that is one thing they would spam a lot in that matchup. Also 2 hits of armor now means DD goes through batarangs. Also bats building slower really helps us out.

Also isn't it possible for Superman vs DD to be 5-5 now as well. That f2 range is a lot easier to deal with now.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
Also isn't it possible for Superman vs DD to be 5-5 now as well. That f2 range is a lot easier to deal with now.
I kind of hope you're joking. But I don't see how a match up where he hits trait and blows all your shit up free is even. Specially when you consider his 50/50 vortex and damage output. This forum is really starting to drive me nuts.
 
Remember Evolution 2011 and REO's Mileena? Nobody had any clue whatsoever how to punish regular and MB telekick aside from Perfect Legend's Kung Lao, who has the easiest telekick punish in the game. A year later, every serious tournament player learned how to punish the telekicks. Likewise, a year from now on, no serious tournament player will get hit by d+1 xx earth shaker.
literally evrything you said in this post is wrong, Pl did not know how to punish ex telekick at evo2011 neither does kung lao have the easiest punish in the game for the ex telekick. Even years into the game serious players left telekicks unpunished.
 
I kind of hope you're joking. But I don't see how a match up where he hits trait and blows all your shit up free is even. Specially when you consider his 50/50 vortex and damage output. This forum is really starting to drive me nuts.

But what if DD saves his trait until Superman uses his in a combo, or trying to tic throw? Then we get to use our trait right after it wears off...
 
I kind of hope you're joking. But I don't see how a match up where he hits trait and blows all your shit up free is even. Specially when you consider his 50/50 vortex and damage output. This forum is really starting to drive me nuts.

You know way more about the Superman MU than I do, that's for sure. I was honestly just asking out loud because I don't know. I still have it at 6-4 Superman.

But even if people have it 5-5 and you have it 4-6 is that really that big of a difference in the big picture? The only time I think people should think people disagree with them is if one person has a MU at 7-3 and someone has it as 5-5. Then there is a clear disagreement. 5-5 and 6-4 are so close I don't think it is worth arguing over.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Here is your explanation.

Its not about ES alone.

Its about ES, and d1, and venom, and anti air grab, and body splash, and trait.

When you have meter...and are in venom range....your opponent doesnt get to play the game.

Ill say it again.

They. Dont. Get. To. Play. The. Game.

They have to sit, and wait for your shoulder. So you essentially get to do whatever in gods name you want.

When you have trait up, your opponent again is forced to play your game.

Doomsday imposes his will constantly. ES just build meter. Its a safe string ender. Its a safe d1XXspecial.

DD wins because everyone has to sit and hold block while DD does whatever he wants, because they must respect shoulder.
http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/474111172

Check the matches between Nivek's WW and myself. They start at the very beginning of the archive. You ll see very good spacing from Nivek regarding d1xES's. WW's back dash can easily allow her to escape from DD's frame traps. She can only be punished with Venom on a read if she decides to back dash. Also check the matches between myself and Nikollas's CW. They start at 13:30. You ll see its not that easy to do what you say against players who know how to fight DD properly.

Post edited.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
But what if DD saves his trait until Superman uses his in a combo, or trying to tic throw? Then we get to use our trait right after it wears off...
That's actually how I play the match up now, and it's a very smart way to play it.

But even if people have it 5-5 and you have it 4-6 is that really that big of a difference in the big picture? The only time I think people should think people disagree with them is if one person has a MU at 7-3 and someone has it as 5-5. Then there is a clear disagreement. 5-5 and 6-4 are so close I don't think it is worth arguing over.
That's true. I just don't really think it's realistic to call it a 5-5 when he has so many options to shut you down, but I suppose numbers are opinions. I definitely see how Batman could be a 5/5 now though, and I might actually change that number on my match up list now.
 

cR_whiteboi

Jobbers are mouthpieces for gods.
So what's everyone thinking post-NEC?

Anybody else as newly and seriously concerned with the Raven/HG matchups as I am?
Hawkgirl i don't know, but raven no. I played ducky in the hotel room. That MU its still in DD favor. It's just that you do at least need some exp against her. Once you get her in the corner it's ggs. Since my matches against ducky weren't recorded I can't show specifics (nor can I remember them). Lol
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
He does fine against both of them. Raven is 6/4 in Doomsday's favor. Me and Ducky play that match up a lot.
Hawkgirl i don't know, but raven no. I played ducky in the hotel room. That MU its still in DD favor. It's just that you do at least need some exp against her. Once you get her in the corner it's ggs. Since my matches against ducky weren't recorded I can't show specifics (nor can I remember them). Lol
Okay, good. Just checking.
Raven, I THOUGHT I had figured out until I saw Ducky go to work and realized how far behind I was on the MU, but I can't imagine there's that much I'm missing, especially given how Trait makes almost everything she does even more unsafe than it already is.
Hawkgirl, on the other hand, I feel like she's gonna be a problem down the line. Not one that'll push it past even, but definitely not a MU to simply glance over.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
My two cents on the HG MU, 7-3 (feel free to disagree, probably more like 6-4 I'm pretty fucking free to Doomsday). Venom beats out Mace Charge every time (unless there's something I missed when I played seriously) and any kind of tracking move like Supernova fucks with flight. She really doesn't have anything to fuck his trait up (new Mace Charge might help? Haven't played much with it) and she doesn't get many invincibility frames on any wake-up move nor has any armored moves beyond B3\F3, so it's tough getting out of the corner when you get trapped. Argue with me if you disagree, I'm not pretending to be the HG master
 
Hawkgirl i don't know, but raven no. I played ducky in the hotel room. That MU its still in DD favor. It's just that you do at least need some exp against her. Once you get her in the corner it's ggs. Since my matches against ducky weren't recorded I can't show specifics (nor can I remember them). Lol
Raven has also never given me any problems. But I have not played against Ducky yet. On a side note, I went back to Doomsday about 2 weeks ago and this game is so much more fun for me now.

Learning MMH was fun and made me excited about the game again. But that effect was temporary and wore off. I think I will still use MMH against Killer Frost and Slips' Deathstroke, but playing DD again I am just really excited to play again.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
Raven has also never given me any problems. But I have not played against Ducky yet. On a side note, I went back to Doomsday about 2 weeks ago and this game is so much more fun for me now.

Learning MMH was fun and made me excited about the game again. But that effect was temporary and wore off. I think I will still use MMH against Killer Frost and Slips' Deathstroke, but playing DD again I am just really excited to play again.
Deathstroke actually isn't that bad. From half screen you can actually punish guns with venom. And as long as you respect his wake ups, you can full combo punish him every time. You basically walk him to the corner and force him into an uncomfortable position. I used to think it was a terrible match up. But as long as you understand you can't oki him it's not that bad. Glad to see you're playing and having fun again brah.
 

cR_whiteboi

Jobbers are mouthpieces for gods.
Raven has also never given me any problems. But I have not played against Ducky yet. On a side note, I went back to Doomsday about 2 weeks ago and this game is so much more fun for me now.

Learning MMH was fun and made me excited about the game again. But that effect was temporary and wore off. I think I will still use MMH against Killer Frost and Slips' Deathstroke, but playing DD again I am just really excited to play again.
Ya it's not free, but doomsday should win most of the time.
Second must I bring ducky in on his opinion of all raven besides him and glass sword? Lol
Man I'm glad to hear you and pl are back into the game and on the destroyers side.