Doctor Fate General Discussion

[OmGxBdON]

Yes j1 good range and speed, j2 exceptional speed. But I shouldn't have to jump at someone when I want to protect the air, I wanna stand my ground and anti air them after I've baited them to jump on me.

An air to air is not an anti air and I shouldn't have to commit to a 30 frame jump, that's not what doctor fate is intended to be. NRS certainly wanted b2 to be a staple but right now it's not cutting it (poor startup and hitbox/hurtbox)

J1 is a temporary solution to anti airing, but it's not the answer.

Well said

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Yeah, Fate's anti-airs... kinda meeh. It's a PAIN fighting CHEETAH and CATWOMAN

 

[DubiousShenron]

@Bruno-NeoSpace
I feel this way about the b1d32 string.,on hit it nets you maybe an orb or an ankh but it barely has any advantage on hit and the jiggle state is almost useless. It juggles them midscreen while they're mid way in the air, which is the perfect juggle for a fireball to connect (b1d32xxdf1), but sadly, it does not..

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

@Bruno-NeoSpace
I feel this way about the b1d32 string.,on hit it nets you maybe an orb or an ankh but it barely has any advantage on hit and the jiggle state is almost useless. It juggles them midscreen while they're mid way in the air, which is the perfect juggle for a fireball to connect (b1d32xxdf1), but sadly, it does not..

I actually think B1,D3,2 string is a good string

At midscreen is kinda meh, but at corner it's good. I use it a lot after a F3 on block. It's better than doing F2 into glyph.

Corner, with trait off - b1,d3,2 into glyph and confirm.
the combo is b1,d3,2 - glyph - f2,u3 - 1,1,2 - glyph. about 300 damage

Corner, with trait on - b1,d3 into red orb and confirm.
the combo is b1,d3 - red orb - 2,1,1 - fireball - 1,1,2 - glyph. over 400 damage

Try to mix the B1 string with S1 and 1,1 staggers to make them think that you're going for the overhead (1,1,2).

 

[DarksydeDash]

Now that my nerf depression is gone, what are your guys' thoughts on ending corner combos with 113?

In the testing I've done, it puts as in the perfect position to call an orb and MB it so they are dropped in the corner. From here, we can activate trait, call ankhs or use a drain spell for some serious corner pressure.

The downside is that some characters can wakeup out of this and some can even teleport out of it. Luckily most wakeups lose their invincibility or trade with the orb at the distance 113 puts you at.

@OmGxBdON Have you tried this yet?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Now that my nerf depression is gone, what are your guys' thoughts on ending corner combos with 113?

In the testing I've done, it puts as in the perfect position to call an orb and MB it so they are dropped in the corner. From here, we can activate trait, call ankhs or use a drain spell for some serious corner pressure.

The downside is that some characters can wakeup out of this and some can even teleport out of it. Luckily most wakeups lose their invincibility or trade with the orb at the distance 113 puts you at.

@OmGxBdON Have you tried this yet?

Interesting stuff. I'll try it out later.

 

[DubiousShenron]

I actually think B1,D3,2 string is a good string

At midscreen is kinda meh, but at corner it's good. I use it a lot after a F3 on block. It's better than doing F2 into glyph.

Corner, with trait off - b1,d3,2 into glyph and confirm.
the combo is b1,d3,2 - glyph - f2,u3 - 1,1,2 - glyph. about 300 damage

Corner, with trait on - b1,d3 into red orb and confirm.
the combo is b1,d3 - red orb - 2,1,1 - fireball - 1,1,2 - glyph. over 400 damage

Try to mix the B1 string with S1 and 1,1 staggers to make them think that you're going for the overhead (1,1,2).

Yeah I use b1 the most up close and wow I really like that combo, b1d3 into trait orb. I'm lazy with my combos and I just steal all of them from all you guys, so thanks. I also always forget that 11(2) is an overhead and it has great range, but at max range 112 cancelled into push or any other special whiffs unfortunately.

Now that my nerf depression is gone, what are your guys' thoughts on ending corner combos with 113?

In the testing I've done, it puts as in the perfect position to call an orb and MB it so they are dropped in the corner. From here, we can activate trait, call ankhs or use a drain spell for some serious corner pressure.

The downside is that some characters can wakeup out of this and some can even teleport out of it. Luckily most wakeups lose their invincibility or trade with the orb at the distance 113 puts you at.

@OmGxBdON Have you tried this yet?

Yes I do 112 as an ender in the corner after I land b1b32xxpush [b1d32xxpush, f2u3, 112xxtrait activation]. Every other confirm in the corner it's better to end in 211. B1d32xxpush doesn't confirm into 211 in the corner so that's the only reason I end in 112.

As a side note I'm sad that 211xxtrait activationxxankh summon isn't a safe setup in the corner..

 

[OmGxBdON]

Now that my nerf depression is gone, what are your guys' thoughts on ending corner combos with 113?

In the testing I've done, it puts as in the perfect position to call an orb and MB it so they are dropped in the corner. From here, we can activate trait, call ankhs or use a drain spell for some serious corner pressure.

The downside is that some characters can wakeup out of this and some can even teleport out of it. Luckily most wakeups lose their invincibility or trade with the orb at the distance 113 puts you at.

@OmGxBdON Have you tried this yet?

No but ill try it now : P

 

[DarksydeDash]

Yyyooo... Guys I think I found gold. B1d3 is SUPER PLUS on hit if you cancel into trait; they can't jump, armor, or anything so this means we can get a guaranteed throw or string mixup in the corner. You can even get a combo using MB db2 or keep them standing with a df1 but you're only at +7 on hit. If they block it then just don't cancel into trait and stay safe with giant pushback using db2 after b1d32.

It gets better. Since we have all that space to move around in, we can do a couple of things here:

1. Whiff punish the opponent with F2u3 if they try to throw out a normal.
2. anti air them with b2 or j1 if they try to jump out.
3. If they respect it then you can call an orb to trap them in the corner (perfect chance for a drain/healing orb) or go for a F3 and keep the pressure up.

Note 1: If you have trait out and they block b1d23, you're at -4 instead of -9 so the pressure game is even scarier since you can move a lot earlier.

Note 2: If you have even one ankh available, you can use it to cover yourself while putting out an orb, or use it to continue pressure. For example: F3, release ankh, F3, b1d23xxdb2 all jails on block. Keep in mind after they block the ankh, you can always go for a throw.

Note 3: Speaking of throws, I noticed there is an delay between 3 and db2 at the end of the string so you can always dash cancel an orb but they can throw you out of the dash. If you have an ankh available, you can release it while dashing to cover yourself.

Note 4: Push blocking is not an option for the opponent. Releasing an ankh on reaction or even a prediction on the push block punishes the opponent and they lose a bar. If they push block and you happen to have 2-3 ankhs, you can lock them down and get right back in.

So, how do you start this corner game? Here's a few examples:

1. If a combo is going to push the opponent in the corner, end the combo in b1d23/F2u3xx db1 so you have an orb on screen that the opponent will have to most likely block or delay wakeup to avoid. Doing so allows you to guarantee an ankh call or MB the orb for a corner trap.

2. If the opponent happens to already be cornered, the moment they block a F/B3, B1d23, or ankh means you can start the corner game.

Thanks @Bruno-NeoSpace for the idea.

 

[BadMoodBarry]

Yyyooo... Guys I think I found gold. B1d3 is SUPER PLUS on hit if you cancel into trait; they can't jump, armor, or anything so this means we can get a guaranteed throw or string mixup in the corner. You can even get a combo using MB db2 or keep them standing with a df1 but you're only at +7 on hit. If they block it then just don't cancel into trait and stay safe with giant pushback using db2 after b1d32.

It gets better. Since we have all that space to move around in, we can do a couple of things here:

1. Whiff punish the opponent with F2u3 if they try to throw out a normal.
2. anti air them with b2 or j1 if they try to jump out.
3. If they respect it then you can call an orb to trap them in the corner (perfect chance for a drain/healing orb) or go for a F3 and keep the pressure up.

Note 1: If you have trait out and they block b1d23, you're at -4 instead of -9 so the pressure game is even scarier since you can move a lot earlier.

Note 2: If you have even one ankh available, you can use it to cover yourself while putting out an orb, or use it to continue pressure. For example: F3, release ankh, F3, b1d23xxdb2 all jails on block. Keep in mind after they block the ankh, you can always go for a throw.

Note 3: Speaking of throws, I noticed there is an delay between 3 and db2 at the end of the string so you can always dash cancel an orb but they can throw you out of the dash. If you have an ankh available, you can release it while dashing to cover yourself.

Note 4: Push blocking is not an option for the opponent. Releasing an ankh on reaction or even a prediction on the push block punishes the opponent and they lose a bar. If they push block and you happen to have 2-3 ankhs, you can lock them down and get right back in.

So, how do you start this corner game? Here's a few examples:

1. If a combo is going to push the opponent in the corner, end the combo in b1d23/F2u3xx db1 so you have an orb on screen that the opponent will have to most likely block or delay wakeup to avoid. Doing so allows you to guarantee an ankh call or MB the orb for a corner trap.

2. If the opponent happens to already be cornered, the moment they block a F/B3, B1d23, or ankh means you can start the corner game.

Thanks @Bruno-NeoSpace for the idea.

In one of my first tournaments, I was on stage against a Firestorm in losers. I had him in the corner, and hit b1d3xx4 - grab. Unfortunately, my grab whiffed while borderline point blank and I died.

Not saying it isn't viable - just saying that don't get screwed by the grab like me. So my corner game now consists of mb f3, f2, and d3.

 

[DarksydeDash]

In one of my first tournaments, I was on stage against a Firestorm in losers. I had him in the corner, and hit b1d3xx4 - grab. Unfortunately, my grab whiffed while borderline point blank and I died.

Not saying it isn't viable - just saying that don't get screwed by the grab like me. So my corner game now consists of mb f3, f2, and d3.

Ouch.. Sounds like you grab him too early then.

 

[BadMoodBarry]

Ouch.. Sounds like you grab him too early then.

Probably, I suck lol. I also don't usually have an ankh out for a corner grab, so I end up having to do b1(2?) into a wall bounce, nj3, 112xxdb2, and the damage for those 2 bars and trait is just garbage compared to the 480 I get for mbf3 3db2 3db2 112xxdb2.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Am i the only one that thinks that Fate's 1,1,3 into cancel should be able to link into another string on HIT?

Example: 1,1,3 - dash forward cancel - f2,u3 - f2,u3 - fireball.

1,1,3 forward dash cancel SERIOUSLY should be a combo extender... this would make Fate's midscreen combo potential MUCH better...

Just buff the HIT ADV of 1,1 from +18 to +50

1,1,3 forward dash cancel into F2 would be like a 6 frames link (1,1,3 into cancel on hit takes about 35 frames + F2 is 9 frames = 44 frames)

and put a limit to prevent 1,1,3 into cancel into 1,1,3 cancel over and over again...

 

[DarksydeDash]

So, I didn't want to make a change thread for Fate but I was curious what everyone would like to see for the Doc?

I personally would like the following: (Nothing too major because I feel Fate is in a really good place).

- Reduce the recovery of calling db3 and df2
Reason: It takes a little to long to bring these moves out and actually puts Fate at a lot of risk. I'm not asking for instant recovery, but I would like be able to use my healing and draining spells more since a good amount of time for them being on screen is lost due to recovery.

- F2 being safe at -6 or F2u3 coming out on block but loses plus frames.
This one is kinda iffy since F2 is technically safe when done far enough away but a hit confirmable advancing mid would be nice since he doesn't get much damage off it.

- Less scaling on MB db2 while in trait.
25% for a bar.. Need I say more?

- The ender of b1d3u3 becoming a special move.
This one isn't needed but is seriously a dream for me. A tracking MID stomp that doesn't launch unless MB'd, is unsafe, and can be done in the air. This would be a god send for matchups like Superman, Aquaman, etc. but at the same time it would put us in their face which is where we don't want to be.

- Hitbox issues fixes with 1,1 and F2.
If you didn't know, F2 and 1,1 completely randomly whiff on characters like Batman, Canary, Catwoman, Cheetah, etc. FIX IT.

- Add a MB option for db3 that summons all ankhs.
It would help a lot with his zoning game and some particular matchups. If this change happened, then the reduced recovery wouldn't be necessary.

- Throw still launches despite trait running out but the red ankh is on screen.
Not needed, but I would like to see it since his throw is our main mixup tool but his throw range is awful and they took away our midscreen combo off of it.

If I had to choose out of these, I would just pick his F2u3 coming out on block and the reduced recovery on db3 and df2. As I said, I think Fate is a very solid character, but he does struggle. That said, nerfs to the top tiers will help him out a lot as well.

 

[OmGxBdON]

So, I didn't want to make a change thread for Fate but I was curious what everyone would like to see for the Doc?

I personally would like the following: (Nothing too major because I feel Fate is in a really good place).

- Reduce the recovery of calling db3 and df2
Reason: It takes a little to long to bring these moves out and actually puts Fate at a lot of risk. I'm not asking for instant recovery, but I would like be able to use my healing and draining spells more since a good amount of time for them being on screen is lost due to recovery.

- F2 being safe at -6 or F2u3 coming out on block but loses plus frames.
This one is kinda iffy since F2 is technically safe when done far enough away but a hit confirmable advancing mid would be nice since he doesn't get much damage off it.

- Less scaling on MB db2 while in trait.
25% for a bar.. Need I say more?

- The ender of b1d3u3 becoming a special move.
This one isn't needed but is seriously a dream for me. A tracking MID stomp that doesn't launch unless MB'd, is unsafe, and can be done in the air. This would be a god send for matchups like Superman, Aquaman, etc. but at the same time it would put us in their face which is where we don't want to be.

- Hitbox issues fixes with 1,1 and F2.
If you didn't know, F2 and 1,1 completely randomly whiff on characters like Batman, Canary, Catwoman, Cheetah, etc. FIX IT.

- Add a MB option for db3 that summons all ankhs.
It would help a lot with his zoning game and some particular matchups. If this change happened, then the reduced recovery wouldn't be necessary.

- Throw still launches despite trait running out but the red ankh is on screen.
Not needed, but I would like to see it since his throw is our main mixup tool but his throw range is awful and they took away our midscreen combo off of it.

If I had to choose out of these, I would just pick his F2u3 coming out on block and the reduced recovery on db3 and df2. As I said, I think Fate is a very solid character, but he does struggle. That said, nerfs to the top tiers will help him out a lot as well.

Dr. Fate is fine do u want him to get nerfed? Only thing that would be a reasonable buff would be buffing the recovery on the healing spell and the lock spell

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

- Reduce the recovery of calling db3 and df2

I don't agree about these buffs... about DF2 i'd put this: Give Fate an ability to make him use DF2 (healing/DOT field) right where he IS. At this time he can use it on front of him or behind him, but not right on him which sucks.

- F2 being safe at -6 or F2u3 coming out on block but loses plus frames.

- Less scaling on MB db2 while in trait.

- The ender of b1d3u3 becoming a special move.

- Add a MB option for db3 that summons all ankhs.

TBH, Fate does not need these buffs at all. That's too much. lol

- Hitbox issues fixes with 1,1 and F2.

- Throw still launches despite trait running out but the red ankh is on screen.

Yeah, those hitboxes are kinda bad. And that throw stuff seems kind of a bug... maybe it would be reasonable to buff/fix that but i don't know...

I'd also put this:

- Make 1,1,3 forward dash cancel on HIT link into other strings.
Example: 1,1,3 - forward dash cancel - F2,U3 - F2 - DB2

There's also one more thing that seems kind of unfinished that is DD3 with TRAIT ON. With trait OFF, it's about 40% interactables damage boost, and with trait ON it's still about 40%.
i remember 16 BIT saying on Fate's stream that with trait ON ''this (dd3 on trait) become offensive'' (time 11:35

). So, where is the offensive?

- And PLEASE, give Fate a very solid ANTI-AIR! Just increase the up hitbox on B2.

 

[BadMoodBarry]

How about just the ability to fight Superman without having to rely on an entire gameplan dedicated around spamming an mb F3 corner combo - and the ability to not get f2 low profiled so often? Making GL's kick at least trade would be nice too.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I don't agree about these buffs... about DF2 i'd put this: Give Fate an ability to make him use DF2 (healing/DOT field) right where he IS. At this time he can use it on front of him or behind him, but not right on him which sucks.









TBH, Fate does not need these buffs at all. That's too much. lol





Yeah, those hitboxes are kinda bad. And that throw stuff seems kind of a bug... maybe it would be reasonable to buff/fix that but i don't know...

I'd also put this:

- Make 1,1,3 forward dash cancel on HIT link into other strings.
Example: 1,1,3 - forward dash cancel - F2,U3 - F2 - DB2

There's also one more thing that seems kind of unfinished that is DD3 with TRAIT ON. With trait OFF, it's about 40% interactables damage boost, and with trait ON it's still about 40%.
i remember 16 BIT saying on Fate's stream that with trait ON ''this (dd3 on trait) become offensive'' (time 11:35

). So, where is the offensive?

- And PLEASE, give Fate a very solid ANTI-AIR! Just increase the up hitbox on B2.

Dr. Fate is fine do u want him to get nerfed? Only thing that would be a reasonable buff would be buffing the recovery on the healing spell and the lock spell

I'm actually surprised you guys don't want Less damage scaling on MB db2 in trait. It's almost not worth using to me.

 

[OmGxBdON]

How about we talk about how to play better with fate. For example if u guys are trying to get dmg for a punish jnstead of using mb trait glyph how about u use his trait and ankhs for meterless dmg that can get 400 midscreen dmg easy

 

[BadMoodBarry]

How about we talk about how to play better with fate. For example if u guys are trying to get dmg for a punish jnstead of using mb trait glyph how about u use his trait and ankhs for meterless dmg that can get 400 midscreen dmg easy

That would be only if we already were sitting on 1+ ankh though right? I assume people can block by the time we summon + use.

In related things, ever since the patch I've had a lot of instances where I will summon 1, summon a 2nd and throw them - and only the 1st will go.

 

[thlityoursloat]

How about we talk about how to play better with fate. For example if u guys are trying to get dmg for a punish jnstead of using mb trait glyph how about u use his trait and ankhs for meterless dmg that can get 400 midscreen dmg easy

It is a bit counter intuitive that his meterless damage is much better than his metered damage though.

 

[DarksydeDash]

How about we talk about how to play better with fate. For example if u guys are trying to get dmg for a punish jnstead of using mb trait glyph how about u use his trait and ankhs for meterless dmg that can get 400 midscreen dmg easy

My problem is that I never get a situation where I can use his ankhs and have trait up at the same time.

 

[DubiousShenron]

I'm actually surprised you guys don't want Less damage scaling on MB db2 in trait. It's almost not worth using to me.

It's worth using, it allows you to confirm of everything into 211 ender into setups it's okay for now. Also fate already does huge damage in the corner in trait if they buffed the damage on the mb glyph of Anubis he will probably do bane damage..

 

[DubiousShenron]

So, I didn't want to make a change thread for Fate but I was curious what everyone would like to see for the Doc?

I personally would like the following: (Nothing too major because I feel Fate is in a really good place).

- Reduce the recovery of calling db3 and df2
Reason: It takes a little to long to bring these moves out and actually puts Fate at a lot of risk. I'm not asking for instant recovery, but I would like be able to use my healing and draining spells more since a good amount of time for them being on screen is lost due to recovery.

- F2 being safe at -6 or F2u3 coming out on block but loses plus frames.
This one is kinda iffy since F2 is technically safe when done far enough away but a hit confirmable advancing mid would be nice since he doesn't get much damage off it.

- Less scaling on MB db2 while in trait.
25% for a bar.. Need I say more?

- The ender of b1d3u3 becoming a special move.
This one isn't needed but is seriously a dream for me. A tracking MID stomp that doesn't launch unless MB'd, is unsafe, and can be done in the air. This would be a god send for matchups like Superman, Aquaman, etc. but at the same time it would put us in their face which is where we don't want to be.

- Hitbox issues fixes with 1,1 and F2.
If you didn't know, F2 and 1,1 completely randomly whiff on characters like Batman, Canary, Catwoman, Cheetah, etc. FIX IT.

- Add a MB option for db3 that summons all ankhs.
It would help a lot with his zoning game and some particular matchups. If this change happened, then the reduced recovery wouldn't be necessary.

- Throw still launches despite trait running out but the red ankh is on screen.
Not needed, but I would like to see it since his throw is our main mixup tool but his throw range is awful and they took away our midscreen combo off of it.

If I had to choose out of these, I would just pick his F2u3 coming out on block and the reduced recovery on db3 and df2. As I said, I think Fate is a very solid character, but he does struggle. That said, nerfs to the top tiers will help him out a lot as well.

Some good ideas. First thing is I want the hitbox on b2 extended upward vertically and speed up the startup to 8-9 frames.

Make push -8 so it can't be punished by black Adam and Superman, Robin into s full combo. I know some characters have a hard time vs push so I'm not asking for it to be super safe.

Lastly, it feels like doctor fate was designed to be able to cancel ankh call (db3) into other specials. For example ankh callxxfireball or ankh callxxorb. Right now he can cancel ankh call into ankh summon it just feels like he should be able to cancel it into other specials. Obviously don't let him cancel ankh call into another ankh call.

I thought mb ankh summon was a good idea too, it would be nice to build ankhs easier.

Also maybe make healing orb appear a little closer to doctor fate. It's way harder to call it out and stand in it then you think

Edit: also fix hitboxes on f2, 11 and b1 whiffing on characters like canary and scarecrow in the corner

 

[DarksydeDash]

Some good ideas. First thing is I want the hitbox on b2 extended upward vertically and speed up the startup to 8-9 frames.

Make push -8 so it can't be punished by black Adam and Superman, Robin into s full combo. I know some characters have a hard time vs push so I'm not asking for it to be super safe.

Lastly, it feels like doctor fate was designed to be able to cancel ankh call (db3) into other specials. For example ankh callxxfireball or ankh callxxorb. Right now he can cancel ankh call into ankh summon it just feels like he should be able to cancel it into other specials. Obviously don't let him cancel ankh call into another ankh call.

I thought mb ankh summon was a good idea too, it would be nice to build ankhs easier.

Also maybe make healing orb appear a little closer to doctor fate. It's way harder to call it out and stand in it then you think

Edit: also fix hitboxes on f2, 11 and b1 whiffing on characters like canary and scarecrow in the corner

Hate to tell you this but Superman has a 7 frame b2 that will always punish db2. Superman players are just too used to pressing f23