Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

[Geoffmeister]

Actually, you can jump through his overhead. Happens to me very often. You just can't do it right in Quan's grill. But you can at other distances.

Also, thank you for confirming that you haven't been paying attention to the actual talking points, Captain Obvious.

It went from "opinions on this buff?" to "omg infinite block string BUFF FOR SURE NOW".. it seemed as though this topic was being debated by people who forgot about some key points to how Summoner plays. Sorry if that offended you.

D'Vorah, by comparison, has long reaching normals that have disjointed hurtboxes, a safe 50/50, airtight cancel pressure, great damage meterless, and some of thw best pokes in the game.

Where is her bad defense? Not in the poke game, that's for sure.

Or how about Kung Jin's safe 50/50, long reaching normals and powerful offense?

And yet Quan Chi having no wake up is fine while Jin, Jax and others have armored launchers, big damage, oppressive oki, cancel pressure, and fast pokes.

Okay.

Where is D'vorah / Kung Jin / Jax / Raiden / anyone other than Quan Chis possibility to chain vortexes safely? It's kindof a big deal.

Raiden is another example of a character with big damage, oppressive offense, an re-Stand that sets up a safe 50/50 into another re-stand into another guess.

And his defense is more than servicable. To say nothing of the ease with which he corner carries you.

But he can have decent pokes and an armored launching wake up. That's fine, right?

But a 7 frame poke for Quan is just too much, right?

If you're talking about balancing characters it's probably not a good idea to use other characters that need balancing as an example, that being said, it's not the same.

If you could choose between a faster poke and not having (meterless, dynamic) safe vortexes or the other way around, I think the choice would be easily made, right. Either way, should it ever come down to it that neither Low Bat or EX rune can SAFELY CHAIN vortexes, then he can have a faster poke, I wouldn't care anymore cause he'd be balanced.
My point is: be realistic - with this "Santa Wish-list of nerfs", why are buffs being discussed? Shouldn't the community think of a way to balance the playstyle but still keep it viable?

@Sage Leviathan when you're finished laughing, could you tell me where I'm wrong at least?

 

[Sage Leviathan]

@Sage Leviathan when you're finished laughing, could you tell me where I'm wrong at least?

I already did. And so did Rude!

Fuck it. Have another one. Here's Hachikuji failing to escape a school bus (for some reason?)

 

[Rude]

It went from "opinions on this buff?" to "omg infinite block string BUFF FOR SURE NOW".. it seemed as though this topic was being debated by people who forgot about some key points to how Summoner plays. Sorry if that offended you.



Where is D'vorah / Kung Jin / Jax / Raiden / anyone other than Quan Chis possibility to chain vortexes safely? It's kindof a big deal.



If you're talking about balancing characters it's probably not a good idea to use other characters that need balancing as an example, that being said, it's not the same.

If you could choose between a faster poke and not having (meterless, dynamic) safe vortexes or the other way around, I think the choice would be easily made, right. Either way, should it ever come down to it that neither Low Bat or EX rune can SAFELY CHAIN vortexes, then he can have a faster poke, I wouldn't care anymore cause he'd be balanced.
My point is: be realistic - with this "Santa Wish-list of nerfs", why are buffs being discussed? Shouldn't the community think of a way to balance the playstyle but still keep it viable?

@Sage Leviathan when you're finished laughing, could you tell me where I'm wrong at least?

Are you seriously suggesting that the characters i named CAN'T perpetuate their 50/50s?

Have you SEEN Jax's oki game?

Or seen how laughably easy Kung Jin breaks armor?

Get out of here.

A faster poke shouldn't come at the expense of what the character is designed to do.

Also, you can armor b23 MB Rune, so this talking point of yours is outdated.

He would be balanced still because he would no longer die to block infinites.

A point which is eluding everyone. No character, not just Quan Chi, should be legitimately afraid of dying to a block infinite because they have NO CHANCE of escape.

And again, the whole point of me bringing up Raiden was to illustrate that you DO have characters in this game with very powerful, looping offense that ALSO have armored launchers and servicable pokes.

So the talking point that being block infinite'd to death at the cost of putting someone in a situation that they can escape with armor situationally or a correct guess needs to die, because they're not the same thing.

An unsafe, low + on hit, 7 frame downpoke would NOT break the character.

You see, people like you are living in this fantasy world where Quan is the best character in the game and patches and DLC never happened.

Boneshaper Shinnok, Tanya are arguably better characters than Quan. Boneshaper has a six frame d1, an armored 3/4s screen launcher, a 50/50, and continuous pressure. No one is calling for Shinnok mains not to have a six frame d1 on top of all that.

Get in touch with modern MK X and stop living in pre-patch Wonderland.

 

[ESP-_BLACK]

From what i've read, people support block infs.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

And as such... he needs something else turned down to compensate for the other match ups that swing further Quan's way because of such changes... how is this so hard to understand.





That's a rhetorical question. The answer is that its not hard at all to understand, you are just choosing to ignore this part because its beneficial to you to do so

If you change his d3 from +15 on hit to +7, increase the startup to 6/7 frames that would eliminate the free mixup/vortex he gets after the poke as it is right now. That's a fair trade imo

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

I thought this was gonna be a thread about how Quan Chi can be normalized, but you guys speak of buffs?

 

[legion666]

@Rude @Sage Leviathan relax guys. Have you seen me explaining that block infinites by several characters on Quan are real and that it can't exist in a competitive fighting game for like 5 pages here. And all those people who have no idea about how to handle Quan are telling people who actually play him how he is supposed to be played and that being block infinited by at least 3 characters and pressured to death by any strong rushdown in the game because you literally can't get up is fine. Block infinite is fine guys just level up!! It is the price for having a vortex and an ability to zone) don't bother repeating yourselves. If someone advocates the existence of a block infinite this person is lost and is clueless about competitive fighting game balance.
I guess the Kabal should have kept his f32xxNDC block infinite because it is okay- it's just one match up guys!!!!
On a serious note though:
If Quan doesn't' get a 7 frame move, the block breaker system should be changed completely, like costing one bar of meter and all the stamina
Also this:

From what i've read, people support block infs.

 

[legion666]

If you change his d3 from +15 on hit to +7, increase the startup to 6/7 frames that would eliminate the free mixup/vortex he gets after the poke as it is right now. That's a fair trade imo

@STB Shujinkydink do bother man. I have been doing it all day in this thread and everyone apart from Quan main's is like: "Block infinite?!? Not a big deal man, that is just the weakness of your character!" We have made videos proving Liu's infinite exists - nothing. I guess it is ok))) ha ha ha

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

@STB Shujinkydink do bother man. I have been doing it all day in this thread and everyone apart from Quan main's is like: "Block infinite?!? Not a big deal man, that is just the weakness of your character!" We have made videos proving Liu's infinite exists - nothing. I guess it is ok))) ha ha ha

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

 

[Rude]

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

I love that you used Inferno Scorpion as your example. Ha!

 

[legion666]

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

I know dude)))) I was really involved in the argument , but when I realized that I am repeating myself for like 5 time to people who are saying " I still see no problem" I just began to laugh out loud)))
You post made me laugh as well)

 

[legion666]

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

I also like how they talk about Sorcerer placing 5th at Evo without a single mention of what match ups he had to face on his way there. Once in top 8 even a strong player like Ketchup couldn't do a thing against a competent Tanya and D'Vorah.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

I've never lost to a Quan Chi. Not once . Quote me on it. I have no personal bias here. I understand however that my QC opponents have been pretty trash, and it's not hard to realise what the character is capable of. Just looking at his consistent tournament placings from the jump all the way to top 5 at Evo shows that, for those such as yourself who are pretending to be incapable of recognising that (no coincidence that it benefits you to do so right ), or downplaying it.

But I'll humour you for a minute - what known non-Quan Chi tournament players have said Quan should get these buffs or any buff at all, and where?

I know dude)))) I was really involved in the argument , but when I realized that I am repeating myself for like 5 time to people who are saying " I still see no problem" I just began to laugh out loud)))

Maybe this is a sign that you argument is pretty weak, and all you are doing is just yelling it the loudest until people give up. Just a thought.

 

[Rude]

I've never lost to a Quan Chi. Not once . Quote me on it. I have no personal bias here. I understand however that my QC opponents have been pretty trash, and it's not hard to realise what the character is capable of. Just looking at his consistent tournament placings from the jump all the way to top 5 at Evo shows that, for those such as yourself who are pretending to be incapable of recognising that (no coincidence that it benefits you to do so right ), or downplaying it.

But I'll humour you for a minute - what known non-Quan Chi tournament players have said Quan should get these buffs or any buff at all, and where?


Maybe this is a sign that you argument is pretty weak, and all you are doing is just yelling it the loudest until people give up. Just a thought.

Or it's a sign that the opposition us too busy forcing it's opinion on a character it clearly doesn't understand the nuances of to listen.

Could be that.

 

[Geoffmeister]

I already did. And so did Rude!

Fuck it. Have another one. Here's Hachikuji failing to escape a school bus (for some reason?)

Holyshit, really!? All of you and Rude's arguments are either only character based - which boohoo.. he has a bad MU - and none of which you mentioned has the same options Quan has (nobody does)... therefore becomes irrelevant.

It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like yeah he could use it, and all the ppl losing to him in ranked match are like NO WAY HES TOO OP NOT EVEN MY INFERNO SCORPION CAN BEAT HIM BRO FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC

Which tournament players? They all decided not to post in this thread?
I tried debating his mix-up game here but all I get are hentai-gifs and cries about "infinite" block-strings, my posts were also directed at you, you got anything else except "FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC"?

 

[TopTierHarley]

D'Vorah, by comparison, has long reaching normals that have disjointed hurtboxes, a safe 50/50, airtight cancel pressure, great damage meterless, and some of thw best pokes in the game.

Where is her bad defense? Not in the poke game, that's for sure.

Or how about Kung Jin's safe 50/50, long reaching normals and powerful offense?

And yet Quan Chi having no wake up is fine while Jin, Jax and others have armored launchers, big damage, oppressive oki, cancel pressure, and fast pokes.

Okay.

Her 50/50 isn't safe, that is all

 

[Sage Leviathan]

But I'll humour you for a minute - what known non-Quan Chi tournament players have said Quan should get these buffs or any buff at all, and where?

I... I don't understand.

What known non-Quan Chi players have said... how the hell is that relevant?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Or it's a sign that the opposition us too busy forcing it's opinion on a character it clearly doesn't understand the nuances of to listen.

Could be that.

Could be. Could also be that it's no coincidence that the only people agreeing with this thread are a small amount of Quan Chi players constantly trying to drown out the majorities opinion that this thread is ridiculous (which it is) by ignoring counter logic and telling people to "shut up".

I'm sure it doesn't mean anything though that the very few people who agree with this buff are also the same people who stand to benefit from it.



Just a terrible coincidence.

I'm sure.

I... I don't understand.

What known non-Quan Chi players have said... how the hell is that relevant?

Don't worry, you'll get there.




The guy LITERALLY just said, word for word, in the post I quoted and responded to:

"It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like 'yeah he could use it' "


And when I respond asking who, or where, the response is "thats completely irrelevant!" ?

Got it.

This is a pretty good example of what I was talking about in the upper half of this post.

You guys argue the same way SJW feminists argue. Just absolutely mindless.

 

[Rude]

Holyshit, really!? All of you and Rude's arguments are either only character based - which boohoo.. he has a bad MU - and none of which you mentioned has the same options Quan has (nobody does)... therefore becomes irrelevant.



Which tournament players? They all decided not to post in this thread?
I tried debating his mix-up game here but all I get are hentai-gifs and cries about "infinite" block-strings, my posts were also directed at you, you got anything else except "FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC"?

Actually, if you paid attention, I've been shooting your points down left and right.

You said Quan's overhead can stop jumping.

I pointed out that actually, characters can jump THROUGH it.

It's very easy to dismiss a point that you have no argument for.

You argued that Quan's defense is fine and when i pointed out several characters, like Raiden or Boneshaper that do very similar things as Summoner, your only response was, "yeah well, they're broken, too!"

Which isn't an argument at all.

Also, a character or characters infinitely pressuring Quan Chi to death isn't just a bad match up. In a bad match up, you have options.

You have no options versus an infinitely loopable situation.

You mentioned Quan spending meter to stay safe and I pointed out several situations where any character can armor and negate the usefulness of spending meter.

Sky Drop is not an effective option because anything can hit him out of the move, even if he's absorbed a hit and is coming down from the air.

As for tournament players who agree, didn't Mr. Aquaman come in and agree with me? He did.

The problem is that you're willing tp disregard all of this simply to push your agenda and blatantly ignore the facts. In lieu of actual talking points, you try to craft a false narrative of events that paints you in a favorable light because if you didn't, everyone would see your ignorant, mis-informed, and transparent talking points for what they are:

Bullshit.

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

He is still a nightmare for half of the cast

 

[legion666]

Holyshit, really!? All of you and Rude's arguments are either only character based - which boohoo.. he has a bad MU - and none of which you mentioned has the same options Quan has (nobody does)... therefore becomes irrelevant.



Which tournament players? They all decided not to post in this thread?
I tried debating his mix-up game here but all I get are hentai-gifs and cries about "infinite" block-strings, my posts were also directed at you, you got anything else except "FJKRSSNKJDSCBJVC"?

Tell me one thing! Why are you calling it "infinite", when it is a literal block infinite?!? One of the 3 I know of.
The rest of your points were answered by me or other people, you just don't wanna listen.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

As for tournament players who agree, didn't Mr. Aquaman come in and agree with me? He did.

I'm just going to point out the response made when you were questioned which tournament players agreed with you

I... I don't understand.

What known non-Quan Chi players have said... how the hell is that relevant?

I get it though, when we think that there is no tournament players agreeing with us it's "completely irrelevant", however, when one or two of them do agree it's "proof that what we are saying is correct!"

You guys just want to have it both ways lol.




For the record I actually agree with Sage. I think this fallback argument is completely irrelevant. Argue with logic, not by trying to win the popularity contest.

 

[Rude]

Could be. Could also be that it's no coincidence that the only people agreeing with this thread are a small amount of Quan Chi players constantly trying to drown out the majorities opinion that this thread is ridiculous (which it is) by ignoring counter logic and telling people to "shut up".

I'm sure it doesn't mean anything though that the very few people who agree with this buff are also the same people who stand to benefit from it.



Just a terrible coincidence.

I'm sure.




Don't worry, you'll get there.




The guy LITERALLY just said, word for word, in the post I quoted and responded to:

"It's kinda funny how all the known tournament players who understand how quan works are like 'yeah he could use it' "


And when I respond asking who, or where, the response is "thats completely irrelevant!" ?

Got it.

This is a pretty good example of what I was talking about in the upper half of this post.

You guys argue the same way SJW feminists argue. Just absolutely mindless.

That's another false narrative.

I make a long, detailed post about why Sky Drop is an ineffective wake up attack.

You and everyone else's argument: "Bruh, dat offense tho."

Legion666 thoroughly explained how Quan Chi cannot escape Liu Kang's Dragonfire offense.

You and everyone else's argument: "Bruh, dat zoning tho."

Shujinkydink a far higher level player than most of the people in this thread, specifically names characters that can block infinite Quan.

You and everyone else's response: "That's fine bruh, dat 50/50 tho."

Insuperable explains in his own way how you can armor b32 mv Rune.

You and everyone else: "Bruh, Quan Chi can make everything safe with meter."

Strykie doesn't play Quan Chi and agreed with us.

Mr Aquaman did as well.

Do i need to quote others?

In lieu of actual facts and talking points, you try to create a false narrative and create straw-man arguments.

Pathetic.

 

[Rude]

I'm just going to point out the response made when you were questioned which tournament players agreed with you




I get it though, when we think that there is no tournament players agreeing with us it's "completely irrelevant", however, when one or two of them do agree it's "proof that what we are saying is correct!"

You guys just want to have it both ways lol.




For the record I actually agree with Sage. I think this fallback argument is completely irrelevant. Argue with logic, not by trying to win the popularity contest.

I never said it was irrelevant. Quote me specifically if i did.

You tried to create a false narrative of some Quan Chi player agenda when i pointed out that there are non Quan Chi players that agree.

Get over yourself.

 

[Rude]

Her 50/50 isn't safe, that is all

Because you can't special cancel it into a safe, + on block, launching special move, right?