Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

[legion666]

@Derptile do you know if b12xxfb dash cancel or even rc is any + on block?

 

[Derptile]

I don't think a 7 frame throw for everyone is the way to go. Might create problems for other characters game. But hey, if Quan gets any 7 frame move that helps him not to get chipped to death against all those bad MU I am fine with that.

If Quan Chi gets block infinited by Liu kang, Tanya, and whoever else in the corner because he doesn't have a move faster than 8 frames and no meter then a bunch of other characters who also also are in the same situation will also get fucked. Most grabs on whiff equal a full combo punish so I don't think it would be a bad deal at all.

Example: An over aggressive player who traps someone like Quan chi in the corner and does F213 FBDCx7 times, then goes for Ex bicycle kicks to regain his stamina. If he continues to push his luck and continue going in he'll get back thrown into the corner, but it won't be so bad for him since Liu Kang will have done a lot of chip and built a ton of bar. But if the LK player reads that there's gonna be a grab he can walk back and then punish a whiffed grab.

Now this is just with LK in mind, if it hurts too many other characters then I wouldn't implement it, but it's another way of buffing everyone's defense in a game where offense is so strong. BTW I'm a Roo Kang main and I know this would massively hurt his gameplan but I still think it's a good idea.

@Derptile do you know if b12xxfb dash cancel or even rc is any + on block?

B12 FBRC is around +2 on block if done perfectly and the dash cancel is not safe at all. Your better off going for a B12 flying kick meter burn and continuing pressure from there since b12 doesn't do nearly as much chip nor is as plus as F213 FBRC.

 

[The_Tile]

@Derptile do you know if b12xxfb dash cancel or even rc is any + on block?

If I remember I think I read the RC is slightly -, so the DC would be even worse

Edit: Nvm, RC is plus 2

 

[legion666]

If Quan Chi gets block infinited by Liu kang, Tanya, and whoever else in the corner because he doesn't have a move faster than 8 frames and no meter then a bunch of other characters who also also are in the same situation will also get fucked. Most grabs on whiff equal a full combo punish so I don't think it would be a bad deal at all.

Example: An over aggressive player who traps someone like Quan chi in the corner and does F213 FBDCx7 times, then goes for Ex bicycle kicks to regain his stamina. If he continues to push his luck and continue going in he'll get back thrown into the corner, but it won't be so bad for him since Liu Kang will have done a lot of chip and built a ton of bar. But if the LK player reads that there's gonna be a grab he can walk back and then punish a whiffed grab.

Now this is just with LK in mind, if it hurts too many other characters then I wouldn't implement it, but it's another way of buffing everyone's defense in a game where offense is so strong. BTW I'm a Roo Kang main and I know this would massively hurt his gameplan but I still think it's a good idea.

B12 FBRC is around +2 on block if done perfectly and the dash cancel is not safe at all. Your better off going for a B12 flying kick meter burn and continuing pressure from there since b12 doesn't do nearly as much chip nor is as plus as F213 FBRC.

Thanks for the details. Quan is just screwed more than others (apart from warlock I guess) cause for him having meter doesn't help either)

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

#FuckQuanChi

Don't listen to Dink! He just wants MK9 Cyrax on roids!

No Buffs!

 

[Scoot Magee]

I was planning on taking a nice TYM break because of how things have been around here lately, but then i read some of the replies in this thread.

I see a lot of salty people who clearly lose to Quan in this thread.

Sky Drop is ass. That's not even a question. The problem is that it's actually a LOT worse than people realize.

The armored version only lasts so long as he is in the ground. As soon as he's in the air, the armor is gone.

So as he is landing from the teleport you can:

NJP
Throw
Downpoke
Jab
Uppercut
Spin
Walk back

All of these things work 100% of the time.

But wait, it gets better.

Say I'm on the ground and i read an attack. So i use MB Sky Drop. I absorb a hit. Sounds good, right?

No.

Any string can beat Quan out of the air of the teleport. For example, say i armor through the first hit of D'Vorah's overhead string. As Quan lands, the second attack will hit him and knock him down.

This same thing has happened to me when trying to armor Kung Lao's double overhead string.

It has happened when armoring through Johnny Cage's overhead string.

Any of Kotal's strings. I could go on forever.

The point is that even if you make the correct read and use your armored move, you do not get rewarded. This isn't the case of an opponent trying to armor break, because the teleport absorbed the hit and continued. If it was, he'd never go into the ground.

This is a case of the priority being SO BAD that literally anything can hit him out of the air.

But wait, can't that happen to Scorpion or Ermac's teleports? It could, in theory. The difference is that the start up on those moves is much faster than Sky Drop to the point where you really only do it on a read and you have to attempt to do it.

With Sky Drop, you don't have to try at all. Just input a string and enjoy yourself. Or block.

So using meter to get up just gets you killed.

So what else can we do on wake up? Backdash? Okay.

Any advancing string in the game can beat the backdash. It recovers extremely slow and is barely invincible at all on start up. Don't feel like timing an advancing string?

No worries. Just jump. You will beat Backdash every time into a full combo into a knockdown into the same situation.

So how about delayed wake up?

Nope. Did you know that if you do a delayed wake up and the opponent runs, they will push you along the ground? Try it. It works. It's one of the dumbest things that no one talks about in this game.

Even if they don't run at you, you still have to block whatever bullshit, usually a 50/50, they throw out next.

Ditto if you tech roll.

So how exactly is he supposed to get up?

Now i know what the anti-Quan pinheads will say next, "But Rude, not being able to get up is the price you pay for such good offense!"

Maybe. But no one is armoring through b32 MB Rune. B32, B324 are FULL COMBO PUNISHABLE by everyone.

The problem is that there are match ups where you can't poke back due to the speed of d3, match ups where one knockdown could kill you because of how laughably easy it is to beat out all of your options.

And this just shows how much is not understood about the game especially since he got 5th and not many people exploited any weakness. It's only a few months old. Maybe quan should have never been nerfed in the first place? This is why we should know the game before asking for changes.

 

[Derptile]

And this just shows how much is not understood about the game especially since he got 5th and not many people exploited any weakness. It's only a few months old. Maybe quan should have never been nerfed in the first place? This is why we should know the game before asking for changes.

Insta-Bat at anytime as much as he wants, yeah he totally needed it.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Insta-Bat at anytime as much as he wants, yeah he totally needed it.

It's a counter argument to all the things he's saying is bad about the character. I don't claim to know quan chi enough to comment on what he should or shouldn't have.

Also there was a tom of other shit nerfed in the game that could hace competed against that but we only had about 30 days to find oit.

 

[Geoffmeister]

So here we have a variation that can
a) make his vortexes + on block with EX-rune (that still launches)
b) can make his vortexes safe with a low bat (that still launches)
c) can hit-confirm his 9 frame low starter
d) has a 15 frame overhead that hits half-screen and anything in the air
e) can change his mixups to be OH/Low or Low/OH
f) can create several "hard"-to-blockables with said mixups
g) air normal of 6 frame startup
h) NJP of 5 frame startup
i) a low profile d3 that's -1 on block
j) is a top 5 zoner

but there's 8 pages talking about how his only weakness shouldn't be his weakness anymore?

 

[legion666]

So here we have a variation that can
a) make his vortexes + on block with EX-rune (that still launches)
b) can make his vortexes safe with a low bat (that still launches)
c) can hit-confirm his 9 frame low starter
d) has a 15 frame overhead that hits half-screen and anything in the air
e) can change his mixups to be OH/Low or Low/OH
f) can create several "hard"-to-blockables with said mixups
g) air normal of 6 frame startup
h) NJP of 5 frame startup
i) a low profile d3 that's -1 on block
j) is a top 5 zoner

but there's 8 pages talking about how his only weakness shouldn't be his weakness anymore?

His low is 10 frames) the rest of that seems right apart from when you call having a couple of characters do a legit block infinite on you a weakness. It isn't a weakness it is straight up a game flow if you have completely no options after blocking a normal.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

His low is 10 frames) the rest of that seems right apart from when you call having a couple of characters do a legit block infinite on you a weakness. It isn't a weakness it is straight up a game flow if you have completely no options after blocking a normal.

But its only against certain characters. U have to be aware of his other mus too when is one of the reasons why he doesn't have a fast low poke. You can't just adjust something for a specific mu imo. It would honestly have to be a universal struggle. Some mus up close i feel that quan just has to hold that. It wouldn't be fair to his other mus.

 

[legion666]

But its only against certain characters. U have to be aware of his other mus too when is one of the reasons why he doesn't have a fast low poke. You can't just adjust something for a specific mu imo. It would honestly have to be a universal struggle. Some mus up close i feel that quan just has to hold that. It wouldn't be fair to his other mus.

A 7 frame d1 which is like -9 on block wouldn't be affecting his overall MU . Even the said Liu, Tanya, Kotal also Kung Lao , D'Vorah , Jax and so on would still be loosing for him. But he would have one option.
By being have to hold that in some MU you mean you justify meterless block infinities?

 

[Geoffmeister]

His low is 10 frames) the rest of that seems right apart from when you call having a couple of characters do a legit block infinite on you a weakness. It isn't a weakness it is straight up a game flow if you have completely no options after blocking a normal.

I haven't seen one block-"infinite" in this thread that doesn't require stamina or extremely strict links, shouldn't there be some sort of a reward for connecting 1-2 frame pressure-links while - if you mess it up - your opponent can just safely vortex you to death? There's a huge difference in effort from these 2 playstyles, it's also worth mentioning that the other 90% of the roster doesn't have pressure that's ACTUALLY a problem for QC's counterpressure.
QC can still jump out, buffer NJP, d3 or backdash.
In my opinion, the character that has THE BEST offensive options should have THE WORST defensive options, and in this case his offense greatly outshines what the rest of the roster is capable of while his defense (not talking Armored specials) is on par with some of the "worst" defensive options.
Come to think of it, I've been expecting Summoner normalisations since the minute I saw those "swaggy"-"rich homie"-"cheese"-combos, week 1 after release, but hey, everything's still here and I think these "please buff"-topics played a role in that.

 

[legion666]

I haven't seen one block-"infinite" in this thread that doesn't require stamina or extremely strict links, shouldn't there be some sort of a reward for connecting 1-2 frame pressure-links while - if you mess it up - your opponent can just safely vortex you to death? There's a huge difference in effort from these 2 playstyles, it's also worth mentioning that the other 90% of the roster doesn't have pressure that's ACTUALLY a problem for QC's counterpressure.
QC can still jump out, buffer NJP, d3 or backdash.
In my opinion, the character that has THE BEST offensive options should have THE WORST defensive options, and in this case his offense greatly outshines what the rest of the roster is capable of while his defense (not talking Armored specials) is on par with some of the "worst" defensive options.
Come to think of it, I've been expecting Summoner normalisations since the minute I saw those "swaggy"-"rich homie"-"cheese"-combos, week 1 after release, but hey, everything's still here and I think these "please buff"-topics played a role in that.

Liu kang's block infinite is easy to do, all the stamina depletes after 7 repetitions of f213xxfire ball xx DASH cancel then you do F213xxFlying kick MB (the strings before that have build Liu 2 bars of meter by that time) , Quan can't get out here either, your stamina comes back during Flying kisk MB, you do 7 repetitions of f213xxfire ballxx dash - IT IS A LEGIT BLOCK INFINITE! I am tired of repeating this shit over and over again for all of you didn't bother to read previous posts. IT IS NOT HARD TO DO. Some of Quan's swaggy combos are actually harder in execution. And Tanya just fucking does a string which is +2 on block which he can't do little about as it is but when you add tele cancels and MB tofa throw you get a legit block infinite, which Quan can't do anything about, and it isn't hard at all to do. It is actually pretty braindead.
The best offensive options is also arguable. His mix ups are the best. But footsies require meter to be safe, zoning is meter dependent as well since the bat nerf. b32xxMB Rune can be armored through and the b324 string itself is unsafe, and b32 as well. So when opponent has meter he can blow you up for going low everytime.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I haven't seen one block-"infinite" in this thread that doesn't require stamina or extremely strict links, shouldn't there be some sort of a reward for connecting 1-2 frame pressure-links while - if you mess it up - your opponent can just safely vortex you to death? There's a huge difference in effort from these 2 playstyles, it's also worth mentioning that the other 90% of the roster doesn't have pressure that's ACTUALLY a problem for QC's counterpressure.
QC can still jump out, buffer NJP, d3 or backdash.
In my opinion, the character that has THE BEST offensive options should have THE WORST defensive options, and in this case his offense greatly outshines what the rest of the roster is capable of while his defense (not talking Armored specials) is on par with some of the "worst" defensive options.
Come to think of it, I've been expecting Summoner normalisations since the minute I saw those "swaggy"-"rich homie"-"cheese"-combos, week 1 after release, but hey, everything's still here and I think these "please buff"-topics played a role in that.

(breathing heavily, talking to self): be nice, don't be rude, be nice, be nice, be nice...

Alrighty. Wow. Lot to tackle here. Huh. Okay.

1. The block infinite in discussion is Liu Kang's f213~FBDC. Midscreen, it's really hard to deal with, but you can backdash it (you can only backdash the DASH cancel). In the corner, it is legitimately a block infinite. No ifs, ands, or buts. As I've demonstrated in the previously posted videos, Liu Kang vs Quan Chi can f213~FBDC~f213 seven times, end with f213~Flying Kick MB and loop it all around.

And before you mention the Warlock pick and EXScoop, f213~FBDC~f213 pops the armor half the time. So there's that.

This says nothing about Kotal or Tanya against Quan and how their pressure prevents his escape either.

2. f213~FBDC/FBRC. Takes practice, but it's actually a lot easier than it looks. No one frame link bullcrap, just practice.

3. vs f213~FBDC midscreen, Quan's only option is to backdash. All other options result in being hit. Liu Kang may freely react to the backdash, it doesn't take a shaolin master or really fast eyes.

4. His offense ain't as great as you might think. Really slow mid starter, reliant on MB Rune, has to commit to an unsafe low option or a low option with a hole in it (that STILL costs a bar). What people get mad about, his saving graces really, are the bat and the armor spell. and the range on b2

5. Please don't counter our request of a *slightly* faster poke with a Santa-sized list of Summoner nerfs. Even if his faster d3 was made more negative on block, it would be a worthwhile trade to not get chipped to death.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Remember how right everyone said Dave was about mkx being the death of footsies? Everyone knew what changes needed to be made because the writing was on the wall. Run up 50/50 was the dominant strategy. This was weeks into the games life.

What makes everyone think they know what needs to be changed now? We are only about 3 months in and we are suggesting changes for a 5th place evo character that is consistently regarded as top tier.

Take it slow guys.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I know I've said this a bunch of times but why exactly does he need to get a ;poke without getting something taken away in return? If this poke is so important(which it seems to be) it would seem fair to give it to him with another minor nerf.

The problem with giving a faster poke is anytime he counterpokes or punishes you with a poke he now gets to go into his pressure game, which against some characters is death(I know about the gaps in B32 rune and EX Rune. Doesnt make his offense any worse lol). So if you gave him a 6f d1 for example, he could now punish any move that is -7 and then go into his vortex. Now you could make the d1 - on hit or something like that but then the other person could just go back into their block infinite.

I think the other thing to bring up is while they aren't necessarily block infinites, Sorceror has some of the best chip setups in the game, and against some characters it may as well be a block infinite(Predator also has a 9f d1 and a bad armor move. So he's pretty much screwed in the corner).

So again, I think if you want the faster poke you better be prepared to receive a nerf or two in return.

 

[Geoffmeister]

(breathing heavily, talking to self): be nice, don't be rude, be nice, be nice, be nice...

Alrighty. Wow. Lot to tackle here. Huh. Okay.block infinite in discussion is Liu Kang's f213~FBDC. Midscreen, it's really hard to deal with, but you can backdash it (you can only backdash the DASH cancel). In the corner, it is legitimately a block infinite. No ifs, ands, or buts. As I've demonstrated in the previously posted videos, Liu Kang vs Quan Chi can f213~FBDC~f213 seven times, end with f213~Flying Kick MB and loop it all around.

And before you mention the Warlock pick and EXScoop, f213~FBDC~f213 pops the armor half the time. So there's that.

This says nothing about Kotal or Tanya against Quan and how their pressure prevents his escape either.

2. f213~FBDC/FBRC. Takes practice, but it's actually a lot easier than it looks. No one frame link bullcrap, just practice.

3. vs f213~FBDC midscreen, Quan's only option is to backdash. All other options result in being hit. Liu Kang may freely react to the backdash, it doesn't take a shaolin master or really fast eyes.

4. His offense ain't as great as you might think. Really slow mid starter, reliant on MB Rune, has to commit to an unsafe low option or a low option with a hole in it (that STILL costs a bar). What people get mad about, his saving graces really, are the bat and the armor spell. and the range on b2

5. Please don't counter our request of a *slightly* faster poke with a Santa-sized list of Summoner nerfs. Even if his faster d3 was made more negative on block, it would be a worthwhile trade to not get chipped to death.

You're referring to a handful of characters, while every character has bad MU's, this one change is going to completely diminish that. If you guys want a faster poke then the whole mechanic of the bat-summon should be re-worked for the worse, I like that such a mechanic is in the game, it's just ridiculously overpowered, the ONLY drawback is no reliable armored special or a faster than 9-frame poke.
Quan gets great amount of meter for his offense AND a 50% chance of breaking through your opponents defense (fuzzy-guarding does NOT work), which in turn gives MORE meter for MORE safe vortexes, OF COURSE you want a faster poke.
Isn't simply the idea of safe vortexes in MKX just absolutely ridiculous? Honestly, you GUESS correctly and you get 0 reward, NOT ONLY THAT but QC can start ANOTHER risk-free vortex for NO cost, tell me how that deserves a win.
Be HAPPY your character has a drawback (small as it is) or any competent competitive player would look down on you.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

You're referring to a handful of characters, while every character has bad MU's, this one change is going to completely diminish that.

I read that and fucking laughed. Ahem, er. Sorry.

I'm at a loss. I really don't know what else to say. It's a poke. I mean... it's a poke!

Ah whatever. Here, have a gif of Hachikuji being swung around like a medieval flail.

 

[Insuperable]

When people say being infinited is gucci because they deserve it

 

[Deleted member 9158]

I still feel that his ex skydrop either needs to happen faster, or gain an extra hit of armour. Too many times he gets hit out of it on the way down

 

[Geoffmeister]

I read that and fucking laughed. Ahem, er. Sorry.

I'm at a loss. I really don't know what else to say. It's a poke. I mean... it's a poke!

Ah whatever. Here, have a gif of Hachikuji being swung around like a medieval flail.

I'm not sure if this is some master downplay plan or if you don't know, I'll try and break it down for you:
The poke is literally the whole point.

Quan Chi overall = safe Vortexes but slow pokes = Great offense, bad defense
Summoner = no (reliable) Armored Move = Bad Counter pressure

SO how do you approach a character with all the previously mentioned offensive options? You rush him down. Don't let him use hit you once, cause if you do he'll put you in a situation where everything he does is safe, which is stupid in itself but doesn't stop the fact it's in (THIS) game.
Take away the slow poke = take away his global weakness = take away the only CHANCE at winning in a match where the odds are always against you

 

[Rude]

So here we have a variation that can
a) make his vortexes + on block with EX-rune (that still launches)
b) can make his vortexes safe with a low bat (that still launches)
c) can hit-confirm his 9 frame low starter
d) has a 15 frame overhead that hits half-screen and anything in the air
e) can change his mixups to be OH/Low or Low/OH
f) can create several "hard"-to-blockables with said mixups
g) air normal of 6 frame startup
h) NJP of 5 frame startup
i) a low profile d3 that's -1 on block
j) is a top 5 zoner

but there's 8 pages talking about how his only weakness shouldn't be his weakness anymore?

Actually, you can jump through his overhead. Happens to me very often. You just can't do it right in Quan's grill. But you can at other distances.

Also, thank you for confirming that you haven't been paying attention to the actual talking points, Captain Obvious.

 

[Rude]

I'm not sure if this is some master downplay plan or if you don't know, I'll try and break it down for you:
The poke is literally the whole point.

Quan Chi overall = safe Vortexes but slow pokes = Great offense, bad defense
Summoner = no (reliable) Armored Move = Bad Counter pressure

SO how do you approach a character with all the previously mentioned offensive options? You rush him down. Don't let him use hit you once, cause if you do he'll put you in a situation where everything he does is safe, which is stupid in itself but doesn't stop the fact it's in (THIS) game.
Take away the slow poke = take away his global weakness = take away the only CHANCE at winning in a match where the odds are always against you

D'Vorah, by comparison, has long reaching normals that have disjointed hurtboxes, a safe 50/50, airtight cancel pressure, great damage meterless, and some of thw best pokes in the game.

Where is her bad defense? Not in the poke game, that's for sure.

Or how about Kung Jin's safe 50/50, long reaching normals and powerful offense?

And yet Quan Chi having no wake up is fine while Jin, Jax and others have armored launchers, big damage, oppressive oki, cancel pressure, and fast pokes.

Okay.

 

[Rude]

Raiden is another example of a character with big damage, oppressive offense, an re-Stand that sets up a safe 50/50 into another re-stand into another guess.

And his defense is more than servicable. To say nothing of the ease with which he corner carries you.

But he can have decent pokes and an armored launching wake up. That's fine, right?

But a 7 frame poke for Quan is just too much, right?