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Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

STB Shujinkydink

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
Hey guys! Had a lot of fun at EVO and was great to meet everyone! After playing and losing pretty decisively to rush down I thought I'd make a thread and get some opinions on some quan changes.

I think giving summoner a better wakeup would make him broken. And with sorcerer needing the armour circle to get any armor makes it tough for him as well on knockdown. So I suggest changing his d3(or d1) to 6 frames startup and -6 on block. This would allow him to counter better and take advantages of gaps and give him a defensive option across all variations. I understand that these variations being offensive based may bring up the argument that you pay for offense for defence which is definitely a good point. If we decide that is too much I would like to suggest that warlocks scoop move either be sped up to 10 frame startup or have two hits of armour. As it stands switching to that variation for the armored wakeup does not help me in the Tanya,Liu kang, or Sonya mus as all characters have quick multi hitting moves that break his armour, allowing this variation to have practically no use to round out quan. I don't mind having bad mus as summoner as long as I can still use my favourite character in a different variation. I love quan and want to make sure he has options to compete with the cast.


Have I gone too far? Please give me your feedback :)

@PND_Ketchup @Insuperable @michaelangelo @colt
 
LinKueiLegend

LinKueiLegend

The true Grandmaster
I agree with this. I personally don't use Quan but my older brother does. He like many Quan mains have a lot of trouble with rush down and poor Chi can't do a single thing about it haha. Glad you had fun at Evo! So sad I missed it this year!
 
SEV

SEV

Noob
Maybe he deserves a faster poke, maybe, but Quan's design seems very deliberate in lacking good defensive tools, so that if he touches you, you have to keep guessing until you're right, or vice versa. The base character is strong with good tools for all purposes with an exception for defense.

Warlock gives you the only tools you're lacking, as opposed to enhancing the tools he already has with Puggles or the runes; it gives you the threat of a viable wake up and the ability to punish gaps in pressure. If you choose to go Summoner or Sorcerer you're essentially doubling down on offense and therefore have to deal with his weaknesses.

Liu Kang's whole design is based around pressure/chip and breaking armor on reads, so asking for an armor move to beat out his armor breaking move is a bit silly, and Tanya's overhead beats out a lot of armor moves unless they're pretty fast so I'm guessing that's also intentional to make people want to respect her pressure since she doesn't have a true 50/50. I'm not sure what Sonya is beating you out with, but the notion that Warlock's scoop should shut down the other two characters, that have moves designed to shut down armor, that everyone else has to deal with, is absurd.
 
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Conflict_90

Conflict_90

Noob
STB Shujinkydink said:
Hey guys! Had a lot of fun at EVO and was great to meet everyone! After playing and losing pretty decisively to rush down I thought I'd make a thread and get some opinions on some quan changes.

I think giving summoner a better wakeup would make him broken. And with sorcerer needing the armour circle to get any armor makes it tough for him as well on knockdown. So I suggest changing his d3(or d1) to 6 frames startup and -6 on block. This would allow him to counter better and take advantages of gaps and give him a defensive option across all variations. I understand that these variations being offensive based may bring up the argument that you pay for offense for defence which is definitely a good point. If we decide that is too much I would like to suggest that warlocks scoop move either be sped up to 10 frame startup or have two hits of armour. As it stands switching to that variation for the armored wakeup does not help me in the Tanya,Liu kang, or Sonya mus as all characters have quick multi hitting moves that break his armour, allowing this variation to have practically no use to round out quan. I don't mind having bad mus as summoner as long as I can still use my favourite character in a different variation. I love quan and want to make sure he has options to compete with the cast.


Have I gone too far? Please give me your feedback :)

@PND_Ketchup @Insuperable @michaelangelo @colt
Click to expand...
You literally just said what I've been saying for weeks dink. I concur.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
If they buff his defense they need to tone down his damage. I would be ok with giving him a faster poke in exchange for a very minor damage nerf. I dont think he needs to do 40+ for just a bar. Especially not in combination of his other tools.

TBH though I like how he is now, either he gets his game started or he is in trouble. I think giving him a better poke could still make him too good, as the main thing keeping him from beating a lot of characters is the fact that they can bully him up close.
 
STB Shujinkydink

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
SEV said:
Maybe he deserves a faster poke, maybe, but Quan's design seems very deliberate in lacking good defensive tools, so that if he touches you, you have to keep guessing until you're right, or vice versa. The base character is strong with good tools for all purposes with an exception for defense.

Warlock gives you the only tools you're lacking, as opposed to enhancing the tools he already has with Puggles or the runes; it gives you the threat of a viable wake up and the ability to punish gaps in pressure. If you choose to go Summoner or Sorcerer you're essentially doubling down on offense and therefore have to deal with his weaknesses.

Liu Kang's whole design is based around pressure/chip and breaking armor on reads, so asking for an armor move to beat out his armor breaking move is a bit silly, and Tanya's overhead beats out a lot of armor moves unless they're petty fast so I'm guessing that's also intentional to make people want to respect her pressure since she doesn't have a true 50/50. I'm not sure what Sonya is beating you out with, but the notion that Warlock's scoop should shut down the other two characters, that have moves designed to shut down armor, that everyone else has to deal with, is absurd.
Click to expand...
I don't think you read the OP lol. I mentioned reasons why I think warlock doesn't help quan. Buffing the scoop seems fair to me as that variation had a whole does a great deal less damage than his other variations unless you wanna use two bars
 
kabelfritz

kabelfritz

Noob
LinKueiLegend said:
I agree with you that he is really good though what @STB Shujinkydink is askng for wont make him OP. Itll just give him a chance to get out of pressure. There should be no reason for a character to have absolutely no options when they are being attacked non stop.
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not every character has kung lao or tanya pressure though, how will they deal with this quan chi buff?
 
errormacro7

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
LinKueiLegend said:
I agree with you that he is really good though what @STB Shujinkydink is askng for wont make him OP. Itll just give him a chance to get out of pressure. There should be no reason for a character to have absolutely no options when they are being attacked non stop.
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But he needs to have some weakness, especially a character like Quan chi that slaughters you when he gets in. Every character has their strenghts and weaknesses.
 
kabelfritz

kabelfritz

Noob
LinKueiLegend said:
Learn how to block it. Bait it out. Its not like giving him that slight change will completely obliterate everyone else.
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-6, huh? not even punishable.

and 6f start up... honestly aside from a safe armored move this is the closest thing to a "free from jail" card. it would completely obliteratre some chars corner game. and then he gets a 50/50 with 50/50s on top after a connected poke... no thx. quan chi needs to suck bad in the corner.
 
LinKueiLegend

LinKueiLegend

The true Grandmaster
kabelfritz said:
-6, huh? not even punishable.

and 6f start up... honestly aside from a safe armored move this is the closest thing to a "free from jail" card. it would completely obliteratre some chars corner game. and then he gets a 50/50 with 50/50s on top after a connected poke... no thx. quan chi needs to suck bad in the corner.
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Yeah woops! My bad. I didnt mean to say punish.
 
SEV

SEV

Noob
STB Shujinkydink said:
I don't think you read the OP lol. I mentioned reasons why I think warlock doesn't help quan. Buffing the scoop seems fair to me as that variation had a whole does a great deal less damage than his other variations unless you wanna use two bars
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I read it, I just completely disagree with your logic. Just because it doesn't help you wake up or armor out blindly in three match ups, two of which being characters meant to blow up armor, doesn't mean it's completely useless in his other 25 match ups; if you'd rather have the extra offensive capabilities that's fine, but Warlock still does what it's intended to do, which is to fill the holes in his base design.
 
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