Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

[Derptile]

Again, you and several others simply haven't been paying attention to everything that's been said.

First of all: You not need an armor breaking string to beat The Sky drop. I could absorb the first hit of whatever attack you're doing with Sky Drop and still get hit as he's coming down from the teleport. So unlike almost every other armored move in the game, Quan Chi can't use that as an escape method.

Warlock is also not a viable option. In that variation your low scoop DOES get armor broken and you STILL can't poke out.

This is to say nothinh of the fact that in Warlock you always need at least one bar to stay safe and to continue your vortex, so if the time comes for you to use that low scoop to get out, you might not even have the meter for it.

Remember: without mb Rune, in Warlock your b2 is full combo punishable, your b324 is full combo punishable, your f2122 is full combo punishable. Your only safe string is f212 and you have no good ways to build meter.

So no, Warlock is not the answer.

We're not asking for a safe, armored launcher.
We're not asking for a get up for free move.
Other posters have even said that if they DID get a faster poke, that would be fine with it being very - on block.

All we want is for a chance to NOT be block infinite'd to death.

How is that so hard to grasp?

Hmm, I see your point. Giving him a 7 frame punishable poke would be fine. It's just that I thought you guys wanted one of those non-punishable 7 or 6 frame pokes this game likes to have.

Update- Oh fuk I forgot about that reversal back throw that @Error404 ^ mentioned. We really need to get a sticky for that. Can someone test to see if it beats Liu's follow ups after flying kick MB? If so then I don't really see the point in giving him a better poke lol.

 

[legion666]

A 6frame d1 is too much for a character like quan. They give characters those types of pokes to benefit what they truly lack.

Ermac- ALL of his true 50/50 offensive options are punishable even if he commits to a special.

Kotal kahn- easily zoned out by the majority of the cast. The majority of his combos can be armored out of

I can't think/remember other characters with 6 frame d1s but those listed are my opinions as of why they have them.

Quan has everything that those characters lack. Quan has excellent zoning in summoner with the addition to his amazing 50/50s and semi unblockables. Giving him a 6frame d1 is pushing it. If quan gets one thn u might as well give the entire cast that option imo.

Give him a 8 frame d1 at the least

I can remember some more with 6 frame d1, Shinnok for example) Quan has to get at least a 7 frame d1 to be able to get out of the infinites we were talking about because his 8 frame 2 doesn't cut it. 7 will be just fine no need for 6)

 

[Error404]

I can remember some more with 6 frame d1, Shinnok for example) Quan has to get at least a 7 frame d1 to be able to get out of the infinites we were talking about because his 8 frame 2 doesn't cut it. 7 will be just fine no need for 6)

Did you even bother reading the post I tagged you in where I explained that you can get out of infinites without a 6 frame poke ?

 

[legion666]

@legion666 @Rude
I cannot provide video because i'm running late for work, but I went to practice mode and tested it out. The "block infinite" LK hits you with can be escaped with a reversal back throw as it starts up in 7 frames. Lui Kang techs the throw because he is already hitting 2 for the string , but you still get a lot of distance at neutral.

Hmm, I see your point. Giving him a 7 frame punishable poke would be fine. It's just that I thought you guys wanted one of those non-punishable 7 or 6 frame pokes this game likes to have.

Update- Oh fuk I forgot about that reversal back throw that @Error404 ^ mentioned. We really need to get a sticky for that.

I completely forgot about that reversal throw as well. Well it is an option against Lui I agree. But a risky one. And you know that Quan can only do that after a MB Bicycle kick, so the 7 repetitions of f213xx fb xx dash which build 2 bars (a free Breaker for Lui everytime Quan blocks something)and do 20% still apply)
But yeah that is a very risky, punishable, and predictable ( being the only option) but still an option.
But do you now see that for him having a 7 frame, punishable on block d1 wouldn't make him broken.

 

[Derptile]

I can remember some more with 6 frame d1, Shinnok for example) Quan has to get at least a 7 frame d1 to be able to get out of the infinites we were talking about because his 8 frame 2 doesn't cut it. 7 will be just fine no need for 6)

I completely forgot about that reversal throw as well. Well it is an option against Lui I agree. But a risky one. And you know that Quan can only do that after a MB Bicycle kick, so the 7 repetitions of f213xx fb xx dash which build 2 bars (a free Breaker for Lui everytime Quan blocks something)and do 20% still apply)
But yeah that is a very risky, punishable, and predictable ( being the only option) but still an option.
But do you now see that for him having a 7 frame, punishable on block d1 wouldn't make him broken.

Even if he had a 5 frame poke it wouldn't matter against F213 FBDC, it's +6 and F2 is 10 frames, and since no one here is asking for a better armored teleport(I would still support giving warlock buffs like faster Scooooop) but are instead asking for a 7 frame poke that's lightly plus on hit but still quite negative on block, I see no point in continuing this discussion about giving him a faster poke IF AND ONLY IF Reversal Grab does what error said.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I see no point in continuing this discussion about giving him a faster poke IF AND ONLY IF Reversal Grab does what error said.

It doesn't.

Video incoming.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

That, ladies and gents, is a block infinite against Quan Chi in the corner (I am playing as Quan, I recorded Liu Kang).

Throwing or poking do not work.

 

[legion666]

It doesn't.

Video incoming.

Very interested to see, cause I am unable to test myself.

 

[legion666]

That, ladies and gents, is a block infinite against Quan Chi in the corner (I am playing as Quan, I recorded Liu Kang).

Throwing or poking do not work.

You sure you are doing a reversal throw there? I am really just asking. Also can you try to do the same with Warlock's armor, I think it gets broken as well)

 

[ENDeverMORE]

That, ladies and gents, is a block infinite against Quan Chi in the corner (I am playing as Quan, I recorded Liu Kang).

Throwing or poking do not work.

Don't just to conclusions just yet, Liu can't always keep RC pressure going, and like people were discussing: try using reversal throw.

This matchup is still annoying as all hell -____-

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Midscreen

Will test EXScoop of Warlock in a second.

EDIT:
R1 is a reversal throw.

 

[Derptile]

That, ladies and gents, is a block infinite against Quan Chi in the corner (I am playing as Quan, I recorded Liu Kang).

Throwing or poking do not work.

You potato, we're talking about whether or not after flying kick MB, not after a F213 FBDC, a F213 FBDC is +6 and flying kick MB is +2. See if the grab beats the F2 after a Ex flying kick, if it does then it's not a block infinite, it'll be fucked up but it's not a block infinite.

 

[legion666]

Don't just to conclusions just yet, Liu can't always keep RC pressure going, and like people were discussing: try using reversal throw.

This matchup is still annoying as all hell -____-

This isn't run cancels) it is dash cancels)

 

[Sage Leviathan]

You potato, we're talking about whether or not after flying kick MB, not after a F213 FBDC, a F213 FBDC is +6 and flying kick MB is +2. See if the grab beats the F2 after a Ex flying kick, if it does then it's not a block infinite, it'll be fucked up but it's not a block infinite.

Sorry, I might be misunderstanding.
You want me to have Liu do Flying Kick MB (into Bike), then follow with f213 and see if Quan's throw can beat the f213?

 

[legion666]

Midscreen

Will test EXScoop of Warlock in a second.

EDIT:
R1 is a reversal throw.
Not sure how that isn't translating.

@Derptile is right, because this is Block infinite till stamina runs our which happens after 7 repetitions, does 20% chip, 2 bars of meter, but of course technically wouldn't be considered a block infinite. We need to test the reversal throw after MB bicycle kick when Liu is left at +2

 

[legion666]

Sorry, I might be misunderstanding.
You want me to have Liu do Flying Kick MB (into Bike), then follow with f213 and see if Quan's throw can beat the f213?

Yeah, he needs to do that after 7 repetitions of f213xxfbxxdash in order to regain stamina

 

[Sage Leviathan]

@Derptile

Now, there are only two instances of f213x7~Flying Kick MB in the video (to keep it short and to the point), but it beat throw every single time off camera as well.

 

[legion666]

@Derptile

Now, there are only two instances of f213x7~Flying Kick MB in the video (to keep it short and to the point), but it beat throw every single time off camera as well.

So the reversal throw isn't 7 frames then if it gets beat out. I guess Quan does need at least a 7 frame poke to get out. And did you try Warlock?!) thanks by the way for testing it so fast)

 

[The_Tile]

So you mention Tempest and Dvorah, two of the most OP characters in the game, and are upset because you character isn't quite on par with them?

What about the Goro, Takeda and Jason match up? How about trying to get your character level match ups with them if its "balance" you want and not just MORE buffs to one of the strongest characters in the game, simply because it benefits you? Your personal bias here is real

Its OK to have some match ups that arent even, thats the nature of the game. Don't like it, play a more well rounded character less polarized than Quan Chi, thats kinda his thing. Unless you are asking to remove an equal amount of offense for the defense he gains, which I don't see you doing. And even that is just going to make him more and more generic. QC is very unique. Everyone isn't saying don't buff him because they are "salty about losing to him", they are saying don't buff him supported by the legit reasoning that he is already strong as hell. We have no reason to want to make Quan Chi underpowered more so than any other character (as though he's going to be underpowered if left as is ), the only person with a personal stake in this argument is you, hence why it's so ridiculously one sided. You don't want balance, you want to plug the gaps that offset your incredibly strong character's incredibly strong offense, just to make losing with him even harder. Start enjoying the competitive nature and challenge of the game, instead of whining till NRS turns on easy mode.

Answer me this, how much would a 7f D1 affect the goro, or Jason, or any other match up? I don't think it would affect them all, maybe the goro cause he's a walking frame trap but the poke would still be so negative on block that if we poke at the wrong time it'd be his turn again anyway.

On the other hand, the first example that comes to mind is Dragons Fire Liu, as others have already mentioned, cause I've experienced this first hand. Despite how oppressive Quans offense is it still has holes for the opponent to escape. Whereas if Liu were to get going there is literally NO way out other than taking the ridiculous amount of chip he gets for free, or take a hit and hope he doesn't convert off it.

We don't want another, faster D3 to give us free 50/50 all the time, just a faster poke to get out of pressure. Minus enough on block we can't do anything after, plus enough on hit that it's our turn but not plus enough to give us autopilot pressure.

 

[Derptile]

@Derptile

Now, there are only two instances of f213x7~Flying Kick MB in the video (to keep it short and to the point), but it beat throw every single time off camera as well.

Awe damn, I was really hoping that the grab would beat it.

TBH, now I'd rather give everyone a 7 frame reversal grab that has microscopically more range than a normal grab and recovers a bit faster so that it would work as a safer option for all characters that get fukt by Roo Kang in the corner if they don't have meter. @colt make it happen.

 

[legion666]

Awe damn, I was really hoping that the grab would beat it.

TBH, now I'd rather give everyone a 7 frame reversal grab that has microscopically more range than a normal grab and recovers a bit faster so that it would work as a safer option for all characters that get fukt by Roo Kang in the corner if they don't have meter. @colt make it happen.

I don't think a 7 frame throw for everyone is the way to go. Might create problems for other characters game. But hey, if Quan gets any 7 frame move that helps him not to get chipped to death against all those bad MU I am fine with that.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Now, about EXScoop.

VS Flying Kick MB? EXScoop beats a follow-up f213 all the time, as it's expected to honestly.
VS f213~FBDC~f213? It's a little inconsistent. Sometimes EXScoop works, sometimes (f21)3 pops the armor.

Video coming on that.

 

[legion666]

Now, about EXScoop.

VS Flying Kick MB? EXScoop beats a follow-up f213 all the time, as it's expected to honestly.
VS f213~FBDC~f213? It's a little inconsistent. Sometimes EXScoop works, sometimes (f21)3 pops the armor.

Yeah. That is what I thought , I think only Lui 's b12 as a follow up for MB Flying kick eats Warlock's armor.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

 

[legion666]

Now, about EXScoop.

VS Flying Kick MB? EXScoop beats a follow-up f213 all the time, as it's expected to honestly.
VS f213~FBDC~f213? It's a little inconsistent. Sometimes EXScoop works, sometimes (f21)3 pops the armor.

Video coming on that.

Can't Liu do all those f213xxfbxxdash repetitions than f213xxFlying kick MB then b12xxfbxxdash and back to f213xxfbxxdash??????