D2s Need To Be Unsafe

[xKhaoTik]

You can assume I’m being a smartass all you want, you may be projecting a bit on that one tho. I understand that d2s are safe on block, like I’ve already said. So ducking is the only way to punish a d2, what is wrong with that exactly? Not to mention you can just stuff a d2 on startup with any mid in the game, it’s not a get out of jail free card that can be thrown out with impunity. Is the problem that you have to make a read in a fighting game? I mean you literally said yourself earlier that’s FG 101 lol, if d2s become unsafe on block then they’re going to be rather useless. You would get only 14% if you d2 and it lands like I’ve already said, except for the single time it can lead into a combo, and you would get full combo punished every time whether you duck or block the d2. Doesn’t seem necessary to make every d2 unsafe on block as well when it’s already a high and has lots of recovery on whiff.

Ok now we’re getting somewhere.
Like I previously said, in MKX, D2s were unsafe. They did less damage than they do in this game and they didn’t combo unless you AAd with it or you were using certain characters who can launch with it in the corner. Mind you they were also highs in that game as well.
In this game, they do more damage, have strong combo potential, and are faster all around than in the previous game, yet they’re safe. I’m just confused by that logic is all. That’s alllllllll I’m trying to say. It just doesn’t make sense to me

 

[MK9]

Cause if your getting blown up by d2 so much, it prob your character, like cage or noob.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Cause if your getting blown up by d2 so much, it prob your character, like cage or noob.

I use a variety of characters, but when I’m Jade or sindel, I get so much hate mail because I abuse d2. I can’t even blame them lol. I’ll just do it just to do it. There’s no risk (except the fact that it’s a high). There’s people in this thread who have admitted to mashing it as well for the same reasons. If I’m the aggressor and I feel bad using a move, that should tell you something lol

 

[MK9]

People are the most salty over jade hands down,

 

[Snibbor]

Ok now we’re getting somewhere.
Like I previously said, in MKX, D2s were unsafe. They did less damage than they do in this game and they didn’t combo unless you AAd with it or you were using certain characters who can launch with it in the corner. Mind you they were also highs in that game as well.
In this game, they do more damage, have strong combo potential, and are faster all around than in the previous game, yet they’re safe. I’m just confused by that logic is all. That’s alllllllll I’m trying to say. It just doesn’t make sense to me

Don’t d2s do 14% in both mkx and mk11? I’m pretty sure the base damage on them is the same in both games. Either way, mkx and mk11 are very different games, and I think d2s being the way they are in mk11 is a reflection of that. I’d say that the safe on block combo potential from d2s is necessary for many characters, due to the very limited combo potential many already suffer from in this game. Having the d2 be safe on block gives these characters a threatening option to throw out that is safeish, but if the opponent reads it, it still is punished on whiff. Making it punishable on block all but removes the threat of d2, because if you throw it out, you’d be risking a lot more life than you’d be taking from your opponent the majority of the time. Mk11 is all about reads and reactions, so I believe that the d2s being safe on block, but still being high and having lots of recovery is fair.

 

[colby4898]

What are YOU smoking actually?
-9 sure but with IMMENSE pushback. So no, it’s not unsafe at all.
And what’s your point about it being one and done? Like I said, in MKX they barely lead to combos and were unsafe af. They did flat damage in that game as well so your point is kinda irrelevant.
It’s a scrub mechanic in this game and the reward is way too good. There’s no risk at all basically. Blocked? Who cares. It’s safe. Hit? You get flat 140 or 300+. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. Ducking it is a hard read.

So yea my argument still stands. Shouldn’t be safe

The point is it only launches once. Which is a big point.
MKX is an entirely different game. Just cos one thing may have made sense there, doesnt mean it should necessarily be carried forward into every game thereafter. Different games have different mechanics and balancing.
There is a risk. Make the hard read and neutral crouch. Just cos you cant punish it easy peasy doesnt mean it should be nerfed. Make the read and neutral crouch for the punish or just block and take your turn. You can also flawless block. Which your response was "stfu", but it's a mechanic in the game which should be used and wasnt intended to be easy.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

It’s not clear at all you meant on block bud.

While I don't agree with Khaotik's premise or his rudeness, I have to back him up that apart from that single post you quoted it has been plainly clear the discussion is about d2 on block, which in turn clears up that post because there's really nothing else he could be talking about that makes any sense.

I also realize that I have added nothing, but just wanted to point that out.

 

[Snibbor]

While I don't agree with Khaotik's premise or his rudeness, I have to back him up that apart from that single post you quoted it has been plainly clear the discussion is about d2 on block, which in turn clears up that post because there's really nothing else he could be talking about that makes any sense.

I also realize that I have added nothing, but just wanted to point that out.

Yea I see that now. When I posted that, I admittedly had pretty much only read the OP and then skimmed through the rest until the replies right before mine, but yea I agree that I should’ve picked up on that from the start.

 

[WA-Finest]

What am I ignoring?
You’ve mentioned how they aren’t safe...twice, and both times I’ve corrected you.
You mentioned how it’s not rewarding and I’ve corrected you...twice
You mentioned how they are one and done and I told you that it doesn’t matter.

Anything else you said was pretty irrelevant but I’m not ignoring anything. You made your opinions and I countered them with facts.

I asked "should S1s be unsafe because you can get full combo damage on them with almost every character?" If D2s need to be unsafe why is okay for only some characters to have a 7-8 frame move that can actually combo every time rather than just a single time when kountering a high? Why can some characters actually be POSITIVE and have staggers on this move if having a single move that's not hitconfirmable or cancelable be safe on block is busted?

 

[Matix218]

I asked "should S1s be unsafe because you can get full combo damage on them with almost every character?" If D2s need to be unsafe why is okay for only some characters to have a 7-8 frame move that can actually combo every time rather than just a single time when kountering a high? Why can some characters actually be POSITIVE and have staggers on this move if having a single move that's not hitconfirmable or cancelable be safe on block is busted?

I agree with this 100%. S1 strings lead to combos everytime, d2 only leads to a combo 1 time per match.

 

[Matix218]

Also, I think certain characters in this game have oppressive enough rushdown offense that having a safe on block "get off of me" button like d2 is fine. Especially since you can duck to punish it if you read they are going to do it.

 

[Matix218]

I really like the idea of D2 KB but this should be something you get rewarded with from a good read like ducking a throw. Not mashing after down poke ON HIT and get a KB just because opponent's character can't jail consistently.

I will admit this does suck. As a scorpion player you have a 2 frame window to jail your fastest string starter (s1) after a hit d1, which means you have to press d1 then mash 1 and just pray the d1 hits... there is no confirming it. Thats why i usually try something else to condition them after a hit d1 like slight walkback into a mid or d3 (which can be confirmed into a jail much easier). I still dont think d2s are too good overall, it just sucks for characters like mine who have trouble jailing their fastest strings on a d1 hit, especially online.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

which means you have to press d1 then mash 1 and just pray the d1 hits... there is no confirming it.

Pretty sure mashing only guarantees that you'll miss it.

 

[Matix218]

Pretty sure mashing only guarantees that you'll miss it.

Not if the d1 hits

 

[trufenix]

So, just to be clear. You want to nerf a universal resource for every character in the game, so that characters who have less can have EVEN LESS than the good characters because you're tired of getting hit with it? Pathetic.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

So, just to be clear. You want to nerf a universal resource for every character in the game, so that characters who have less can have EVEN LESS than the good characters because you're tired of getting hit with it? Pathetic.

I don't believe he mentioned the KB that comes from it ANYWHERE in the OP. Just wants it to be punishable on block. Pretty reasonable.

Edit: So he did, but he never suggests taking that away.

 

[trufenix]

I don't believe he mentioned the KB that comes from it ANYWHERE in the OP. Just wants it to be punishable on block. Pretty reasonable.

Edit: So he did, but he never suggests taking that away.

In what way would it being punishable on block actually change anything? The motivation seems to be make people throw it out less. Less random KBs. Less punished throws, maybe. I don't know.

I ask, in what way would that encourage people to throw it out less? Nobody ever pressed d2 and doesn't expect to hit, not anti air, not in a combo, not on a throw read. People do not poke with d2, they do not pressure with d2. It can be fully ducked at ANY range, and is beaten by a ton of low attacks (including EVERYONE b4) at any range beyond absolutely point blank. Oh, and lets not forget, its already the most breakaway'd move in the game.

Maybe thats the angle, people are tired of burning their breakaways. But again, this nerf would accomplish nothing else except less comebacks, and WAY more d1s.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

The only instance d2 actually hits is when you fuck up jailing, are very minus on block and keep hitting buttons or get predictable. You can't beat throws by just mashing that shit, you'll get thrown out of it if you don't actually release block and wait, which is a ballsy move.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

In what way would it being punishable on block actually change anything? The motivation seems to be make people throw it out less. Less random KBs. Less punished throws, maybe. I don't know.

I ask, in what way would that encourage people to throw it out less? Nobody ever pressed d2 and doesn't expect to hit, not anti air, not in a combo, not on a throw read. People do not poke with d2, they do not pressure with d2. It can be fully ducked at ANY range, and is beaten by a ton of low attacks (including EVERYONE b4) at any range beyond absolutely point blank. Oh, and lets not forget, its already the most breakaway'd move in the game.

Maybe thats the angle, people are tired of burning their breakaways. But again, this nerf would accomplish nothing else except less comebacks, and WAY more d1s.

So you're saying people don't throw it out willy nilly knowing full well that even if it doesn't hit, it's okay because it's safe? I mean, I think most of us have experienced it in the year plus we've been playing the game.

I think if you'd be able to jab string punish it on block, yeah people would need to think twice before mindlessly throwing it out.

I agree about the breakaway shit though. Does render d2 KB pointless most of the time.

 

[Gooberking]

So you're saying people don't throw it out willy nilly knowing full well that even if it doesn't hit, it's okay because it's safe? I mean, I think most of us have experienced it in the year plus we've been playing the game.

I think if you'd be able to jab string punish it on block, yeah people would need to think twice before mindlessly throwing it out.

I agree about the breakaway shit though. Does render d2 KB pointless most of the time.

People aren't throwing them out all willy nilly because they know they are safe. They do it because the keep landing them. They keep landing them because everyone wants to run at them with highs.

They have just defeated autopiloting high starting pressure with a strategy. Make the adjustment with a counter strategy. Force them to respect alternative forms of pressure before running at them with only highs. The recognize A and counter play with B of fighting games is present in d2 usage. I'm not personally claiming to be good at making such adjustments, but the mind games and options are fully available around this stuff.

 

[trufenix]

So you're saying people don't throw it out willy nilly knowing full well that even if it doesn't hit, it's okay because it's safe? I mean, I think most of us have experienced it in the year plus we've been playing the game.

I think if you'd be able to jab string punish it on block, yeah people would need to think twice before mindlessly throwing it out.

I agree about the breakaway shit though. Does render d2 KB pointless most of the time.

You are describing two different types of players, and yes, it applies to both parties in different ways.

a) Anybody throwing "willy nilly" uppercuts does not do so because they may be blocked. Even a completley YOLO uppercut is more likely to be ducked and punished in a scramble than blocked. What do these yolo players do after the first d2? usually another d2. You know this, I know this.

b) Anybody "strategically" d2ing already knows it is high, and will totally embarassingly whiff on anything more than a dash away or low profiles even a little. Why would I ever risk a d2 that wasn't guaranteed when I definitely have a mid that will net better results hit or block.

In both scenarios, if it was blocked, that means I was already at point blank range, had about 10+ frame gap since my last attack, and could not have cancelled into it from literally anything and you let me get away with it. MAYBE I followed a super slow projectile or maybe this is some really elaborate trap setup, but you know that night I'll find a way to stop you from punishing that d2. Otherwise why would I use a d2, again, its a stupid slow high.

In all cases this really pathetic d2 mixup is only of value to me ONCE, and assuming it didn't get immediately breakawayed and even get me punished cause everybody is still a huge bitch about that, I will NEVER ever d2 that match again. Unless again, its guaranteed and I have literally no other punish options.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Not if the d1 hits

That's really not how it works, no. If you're getting it on mashing you're either getting ridiculously lucky or lying.

 

[Matix218]

That's really not how it works, no. If you're getting it on mashing you're either getting ridiculously lucky or lying.

I dont mean mashing per say, i mean pressing d1 and pretty much immediately pressing s1 because you only have a 2 frame window to jail on a d1 hit. What I am getting at is it is hard to jail consistently offline on a confirm. You are NOT confirming it into a jail online, you have to guess the d1 will hit. This is specific to my character obviously based on the +9 on hit d1 vs the 7f s1.

 

[trufenix]

I dont mean mashing per say, i mean pressing d1 and pretty much immediately pressing s1 because you only have a 2 frame window to jail on a d1 hit. What I am getting at is it is hard to jail consistently offline on a confirm. You are NOT confirming it into a jail online, you have to guess the d1 will hit. This is specific to my character obviously based on the +9 on hit d1 vs the 7f s1.

I've been gone a while, and apparently am about to leave again, is there a chart of d1 's next to each other anywhere? Not all on a million different pages?

 

[Matix218]

I've been gone a while, and apparently am about to leave again, is there a chart of d1 's next to each other anywhere? Not all on a million different pages?

Not that I am aware of