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D2s Need To Be Unsafe

I think the same "problem" is present in Tekken though, i.e. with some spacing I can just mash Claudio hopkick and get away with absolute highcrushing murder against way better players. It sucks when I lose to panic d2s, but it's also nice to have d2s when I'm drunk and lazy
 
Every single fatal blow in the game is unsafe
A lot of specials are unsafe and the ones that aren’t isn’t a big deal
There are tons of strings and normals that are unsafe

What was the point of your comment?
There are literally characters in this game with no unsafe strings. There is a character with no unsafe strings or flawless block gaps, there are characters in this game that get punished for restanding their opponents, there are characters who have mids that are being low profiled and yet we need to fix d2. I'd take any a change to any of those things than a change to d2. Especially since buttons should do as they are supposed to do whether the opponent has a small hit box or not
 

WA-Finest

>>WILL SLIDE IN NEUTRAL<<
What are YOU smoking actually?
-9 sure but with IMMENSE pushback. So no, it’s not unsafe at all.
And what’s your point about it being one and done? Like I said, in MKX they barely lead to combos and were unsafe af. They did flat damage in that game as well so your point is kinda irrelevant.
It’s a scrub mechanic in this game and the reward is way too good. There’s no risk at all basically. Blocked? Who cares. It’s safe. Hit? You get flat 140 or 300+. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. Ducking it is a hard read.

So yea my argument still stands. Shouldn’t be safe
There's no reward at all is my point. You push D2 and you've completely given up your turn or you deal 140 damage. Should S1s be unsafe too because they lead to 300+ damage? It's not punishable but -9 isn't safe either. They do not lead to combos AT ALL unless you use your ONE KB, and then you get maybe 300 damage if your opponent breaks. Oh no you take either some damage or a single full comboon hit. Or you could block and take the free turn. It's not even like there's one character abusing a broken D2, you can feel free to use yours as well.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
There's no reward at all is my point. You push D2 and you've completely given up your turn or you deal 140 damage. Should S1s be unsafe too because they lead to 300+ damage? It's not punishable but -9 isn't safe either. They do not lead to combos AT ALL unless you use your ONE KB, and then you get maybe 300 damage if your opponent breaks. Oh no you take either some damage or a single full comboon hit. Or you could block and take the free turn. It's not even like there's one character abusing a broken D2, you can feel free to use yours as well.
Are you dense?
If it’s not punishable, THAT MEANS IT’S SAFE. Just because it’s minus on block doesn’t mean it’s unsafe. Yes, you’re at a disadvantage but you will NOT be punished for it ever. Plus there’s characters who benefit from the blocked d2 since it pushes you back so far and they can play their game.

How is there no reward? There’s people in this thread who literally admit to mashing it without any care in the world because there’s no risk. You get a solid 14% every time, you get the KB, or it’s blocked with massive pushback to reset the neutral. There’s no downside to it. Meaning there’s a reward.
 
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E

Eldriken

Guest
Y'all, shit like this exists:
Paulo's shown us time and time again that no matter what clearly needs to be fixed, Tower balance adjustments and pointless "buffs" (Skarlet's b2 as an example) take priority over vacuum KBs, characters hitting behind them, etc.

I don't care much for d2s because they bring out some rather scrubby play among other things, but I'd prefer other things to get touched on first.

Now on to the second matter: Look at yourselves and how you're "talking" to another human being because of a fucking video game. Disagreeing is fine and all, but holy shit, keep it civil.

Do any of you know what an opinion is? You realize you're not the only one in the world who has one, right? Learn how to discuss them, even when someone disagrees with you and is a condescending putz.

At no point should anyone be called or have it implied that they're "dumb" because they disagree. Get out of here with this crap.
 

Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
Lol I can tell the people who think this is “fine” have never played any other FG in their lives.

There is NO FG out there that has a move this powerful safe on block. That’s like saying High/low crushes should be safe in Tekken or DPs should be safe in SF. Let’s get the knowledge in before we type lol.
Really? You're comparing D2's in MK11 to safe DP's in SF? That's comical.

If D2's were constantly and consistently used as effective anti-airs in high level play, I'd say you have a point but they aren't. D2's aren't nearly as strong as you're making them sound.

They can be whiff punished almost all the time cause the recovery is huge and who does D2's from fullscreen. The fact that they are high's also makes them less scary. The only thing I'd change about them is less pushback on block.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
IDK. I’m inclined to be against changing it. It wouldn’t be making them unsafe, it would be making them more unsafe to the point their isn’t much use in them.

The big payout is a one timer. Beyond that it becomes the easier, less ideal way of dealing certain things. A good player is going to be micro ducking in most of the ground based situations a d2 would work. That in itself is betting on you being able to crush their use highs and throws, so if their answer to the same question is d2, and yours is micro duck into full combo, then you should be out on top in the end.

There are people that toss them out a lot, but then they are typically just doing it out of some “this keeps working” autopilot strategy. Their are full damage counter options if they are being predictable about it, and if they aren’t then maybe the person getting clocked all the time with d2’s is autopiloting highs and is lucky that all they are eating are d2’s.

There is also an “it’s not all about you” aspect to it. It might be annoying to someone at high level, but it hardly seems to be unfair, or cheap way to get easy wins on good players. For regular people it gives them something easy, and reasonably effective to do for anti-airs, blowing up high attacks, and even shutting down a poke war - which is still a complaint. You can say “they could, micro-duck, learn to jail, or lab xyz” but a lot of people won’t. They won’t because they won’t. In the end the reasons vary, but people aren’t all in with the same level of investment. And the kicker is, they don’t have to be. People have lives, responsibilities, other interests and are under no obligation to to take the game as seriously as someone else. It gives those people some thing cool and useful for playing the game, while alternative, more effective options exist for really invested and talented players.

I’m not sure what the big deal is with the push back. Maybe if I was better at stuff I would, but it’s kind of so what? Some one says “get off me” and then you go back to playing the game. I know the distance is more advantages for certain characters, but ranges always are. What’s happening there making people mad? What were you planing on doing after blocking you are being robbed of? Presumably blocking means you already finished your turn and made the decision to let them take theirs. If they use their turn to create space is that really a problem? Would you rather them to have thrown you, or try to jump over you? I know people like to just be on top of their opponent at all times, but it’s not some intrinsic right or anything to be able to clime on top of the other guy all the time.

I guess it’s a low risk OS on turn loss to crush highs, beat out slower attacks, and create space on block, but it’s more likely someone would just mash out more highs to steal back turns, and the complaint on blocking it suggests that turn stealing isn’t the scenario being played out that is generating the complaint. Feel free to expand upon what the problem with the semi-neutral reset is.
 

WA-Finest

>>WILL SLIDE IN NEUTRAL<<
Are you dense?
If it’s not punishable, THAT MEANS IT’S SAFE. Just because it’s minus on block doesn’t mean it’s unsafe. Yes, you’re at a disadvantage but you will NOT be punished for it ever. Plus there’s characters who benefit from the blocked d2 since it pushes you back so far and they can play their game.

How is there no reward? There’s people in this thread who literally admit to mashing it without any care in the world because there’s no risk. You get a solid 14% every time, you get the KB, or it’s blocked with massive pushback to reset the neutral. There’s no downside to it. Meaning there’s a reward.
Ah yes, I can't wait to continue arguing with you about what "safe" means. Just ignore the parts you don't want to respond to.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Ah yes, I can't wait to continue arguing with you about what "safe" means. Just ignore the parts you don't want to respond to.
What am I ignoring?
You’ve mentioned how they aren’t safe...twice, and both times I’ve corrected you.
You mentioned how it’s not rewarding and I’ve corrected you...twice
You mentioned how they are one and done and I told you that it doesn’t matter.

Anything else you said was pretty irrelevant but I’m not ignoring anything. You made your opinions and I countered them with facts.
 

NaughtySenpai

Kombatant
Schooling people about fighting game glossary is a bit much from a person that just throws into the room that MK11's d2s are the most powerful moves that are safe in fighting games.

You ever try any Marvel, Tekken, Skullgirls, SF2, SF4, any KOF heck any other fighting game?
d2s are child's play compared to Wolverine Divekicks, EWGFs, FADC uppercuts and so on and so on.

Whole thread seems like a kneejerk reaction to "Fuck I tried to grab this guy 3 times in a row/didn't jail properly while having no defensive meter, ate a d2 kb and 550 damage. d2s are broken, Paulo nerf!"
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Schooling people about fighting game glossary is a bit much from a person that just throws into the room that MK11's d2s are the most powerful moves that are safe in fighting games.

You ever try any Marvel, Tekken, Skullgirls, SF2, SF4, any KOF heck any other fighting game?
d2s are child's play compared to Wolverine Divekicks, EWGFs, FADC uppercuts and so on and so on.

Whole thread seems like a kneejerk reaction to "Fuck I tried to grab this guy 3 times in a row/didn't jail properly while having no defensive meter, ate a d2 kb and 550 damage. d2s are broken, Paulo nerf!"
Never said D2s are the most powerful thing in FGs

and if you had read my post, you would’ve noticed how I mentioned FADC uppercuts. You have to spend resources to make those safe. Without that, they’re extremely unsafe so that comparison is completely irrelevant.
I will give you EWGF tho since they’re pretty similar, but let’s not act like that’s something everyone can do on a whim or make it seem like you can do it with a press of a button.
 

variable

Noob
I feel like it's disingenuous to say that just because something isn't easy to punish always it's therefor safe, and especially since you seem to then take the leap that there's no risk to relying on that move. all it takes is ducking for it to whiff completely and the opponent can do what they want. if someone is relying on them so hard you really ought to be able to punish. if they're not relying on them, it doesn't seem like a huge deal anyway.

and re: the above tweet, yeah I don't think anyone expects people to lab what appears to be an online/rollback visual issue. if that was in person I take it back, but reacting with "bad game" to lag issues seems just like a weird sense of how things work. imo, maybe I'm totally wrong, I admit I'm pretty new to following the fgc so closely
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
I feel like it's disingenuous to say that just because something isn't easy to punish always it's therefor safe
If there are no attacks in the game that can punish the move, then it’s safe. How do people not grasp this lol

There is literally NOTHING in the game that can punish a d2. Even fast specials like Jade’s shadow kick or sub’s slide can’t punish. Jacqui has a 9f ADVANCING MID and even that cannot punish. Yes the user is at a disadvantage, but they are safe regardless. Why is that so hard to understand?
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
If there are no attacks in the game that can punish the move, then it’s safe. How do people not grasp this lol

There is literally NOTHING in the game that can punish a d2. Even fast specials like Jade’s shadow kick or sub’s slide can’t punish. Jacqui has a 9f ADVANCING MID and even that cannot punish. Yes the user is at a disadvantage, but they are safe regardless. Why is that so hard to understand?
He said all it takes is ducking to punish a d2. Do you disagree with that?
Also, you’re saying there are 0 moves in the entire game that can punish a d2, which is factually incorrect. Every character in the game can duck any d2, as far as I’m aware every d2 is a high, so it would follow that every character CAN punish a d2 if it is read and ducked. I think there is a bit of confusion, because you seem to be trying to say that d2s are safe on BLOCK. Which they are, but since they hit high, they are vulnerable to being ducked and punished, and as such are not 100% safe.
 
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xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
He said all it takes is ducking to punish a d2. Do you disagree with that?
Also, you’re saying there are 0 moves in the entire game that can punish a d2, which is factually incorrect. Every character in the game can duck any d2, as far as I’m aware every d2 is a high, so it would follow that every character CAN punish a d2 if it is read and ducked. I think there is a bit of confusion, because you seem to be trying to say that d2s are safe on BLOCK. Which they are, but since they hit high, they are vulnerable to being ducked and punished, and as such are not 100% safe.
I’m clearly talking about on block lol. Of course you can duck and make it whiff. I said that plenty of times. Anything that whiffs in unsafe. That’s FG101
I feel like people are typing just to type lol
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
I’m clearly talking about on block lol. Of course you can duck and make it whiff. I said that plenty of times. Anything that whiffs in unsafe. That’s FG101
I feel like people are typing just to type lol
It’s not clear at all you meant on block bud. In your response to the person before me, you verbatim said there is literally nothing in the game that can punish a d2. Specify what you mean, don’t assume everyone is going to read your mind and know you’re talking about on block. If d2s were all mid in this game, then I’d say you have a point, but you can duck any d2 in this game and punish it. The whole premise of your argument is that they’re all 100% safe, which is untrue. Why can’t you simply duck the d2 the same way you would a throw, and full combo punish it? D2s take forever to recover on whiff, it’s not even a hard punish like a lot of other highs.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
It’s not clear at all you meant on block bud. In your response to the person before me, you verbatim said there is literally nothing in the game that can punish a d2. Specify what you mean, don’t assume everyone is going to read your mind and know you’re talking about on block. If d2s were all mid in this game, then I’d say you have a point, but you can duck any d2 in this game and punish it. The whole premise of your argument is that they’re all 100% safe, which is untrue. Why can’t you simply duck the d2 the same way you would a throw, and full combo punish it? D2s take forever to recover on whiff, it’s not even a hard punish like a lot of other highs.
So I guess when I’m talking about pushback, disadvantage and literally using the word BLOCK literally in the OP, I’m not talking about blocked D2s and it’s unclear to decipher. Cool. I got it. Didn’t know whiffed attacks cause pushback but y’all seem to know better than me lol
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
So I guess when I’m talking about pushback, disadvantage and literally using the word BLOCK literally in the OP, I’m not talking about blocked D2s and it’s unclear to decipher. Cool. I got it. Didn’t know whiffed attacks cause pushback but y’all seem to know better than me lol
Are you even trying to have a discussion or are you just trying to be condescending to anyone that doesn’t agree with you lol. I hope you see the irony in saying stuff like this, and “I feel like people are typing just to type lol” when statements like that add nothing to the discussion. I’m asking you why can’t you simply duck and punish the d2, which you seem unwilling to answer for some reason. The risk reward is not in the favor of the person trying to d2, they get 14% for landing it, or a combo once a match if they counter a high with it. If you read the d2, you get a full combo every time. Seems fair to me.
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
It kinda fits into to the MK11 meta when you think about punishing D2's is a hard read - neutral duck or whiff punish via spacing.
 
That because companies are making games eaiser to play so not so good players will stick around and fill the developers pockets.
30 percent KB on Throws
1 Fatel Blow is 30 percent and you can mash it
Dowm pokes in MK11 beyond annoying not punishable and you can poke the last life out of someone along with this post about D2
Not so good players have chance now with free meter build with no effort
I see this in FPS as well with OP guns unlocked behind boxes.
 

MK9

Apprentice
As a jade player , the amount of keep mashing d2 hate mail is funny. I don’t mash, it’s call timing. If u start with a high attack you will get blown up.

it’s funny how u complain about jades d2, but what about the gap that u can jump through in hers, but that ok.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Are you even trying to have a discussion or are you just trying to be condescending to anyone that doesn’t agree with you lol. I hope you see the irony in saying stuff like this, and “I feel like people are typing just to type lol” when statements like that add nothing to the discussion. I’m asking you why can’t you simply duck and punish the d2, which you seem unwilling to answer for some reason. The risk reward is not in the favor of the person trying to d2, they get 14% for landing it, or a combo once a match if they counter a high with it. If you read the d2, you get a full combo every time. Seems fair to me.
I can care less who disagrees lol. It all depends on your approach tho. @Espio disagreed and he gave valid reasons as to why. I didn’t say anything to him because he was cool about it

But then we got people coming in here trying to say FBs are safe when they aren’t, people trying to say a move that is negative on block means it’s unsafe, or people who can’t even take the time to read and assume I never mentioned how you CAN duck the d2. If you come in here on some dumb shit like that, expect to be treated like you’re dumb.

YOU came in here and assumed I never mentioned how you can duck it, and for some reason it didn’t “click” to you that I was talking about it on block, when there are key words and the actual word BLOCK in the OP and statements. How is it that more than 20 people who like the OP knew exactly what I meant yet you and some others didn’t? I’m sure they have common sense but do you guys lack it or something? It’s like you were trying to be a smart ass and ended up looking the other way instead.

But like I said in earlier posts, yes you can duck it. That’s the ONLY risk it has. But I’m talking about it on block, which is what a lot of people have a problem with. If you or others still don’t understand what I’m saying that idk what to tell you
 

MK9

Apprentice
I can care less who disagrees lol. It all depends on your approach tho. @Espio disagreed and he gave valid reasons as to why. I didn’t say anything to him because he was cool about it

But then we got people coming in here trying to say FBs are safe when they aren’t, people trying to say a move that is negative on block means it’s unsafe, or people who can’t even take the time to read and assume I never mentioned how you CAN duck the d2. If you come in here on some dumb shit like that, expect to be treated like you’re dumb.

YOU came in here and assumed I never mentioned how you can duck it, and for some reason it didn’t “click” to you that I was talking about it on block, when there are key words and the actual word BLOCK in the OP and statements. How is it that more than 20 people who like the OP knew exactly what I meant yet you and some others didn’t? I’m sure they have common sense but do you guys lack it or something? It’s like you were trying to be a smart ass and ended up looking the other way instead.

But like I said in earlier posts, yes you can duck it. That’s the ONLY risk it has. But I’m talking about it on block, which is what a lot of people have a problem with. If you or others still don’t understand what I’m saying that idk what to tell you
And what character are you using
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
I can care less who disagrees lol. It all depends on your approach tho. @Espio disagreed and he gave valid reasons as to why. I didn’t say anything to him because he was cool about it

But then we got people coming in here trying to say FBs are safe when they aren’t, people trying to say a move that is negative on block means it’s unsafe, or people who can’t even take the time to read and assume I never mentioned how you CAN duck the d2. If you come in here on some dumb shit like that, expect to be treated like you’re dumb.

YOU came in here and assumed I never mentioned how you can duck it, and for some reason it didn’t “click” to you that I was talking about it on block, when there are key words and the actual word BLOCK in the OP and statements. How is it that more than 20 people who like the OP knew exactly what I meant yet you and some others didn’t? I’m sure they have common sense but do you guys lack it or something? It’s like you were trying to be a smart ass and ended up looking the other way instead.

But like I said in earlier posts, yes you can duck it. That’s the ONLY risk it has. But I’m talking about it on block, which is what a lot of people have a problem with. If you or others still don’t understand what I’m saying that idk what to tell you
You can assume I’m being a smartass all you want, you may be projecting a bit on that one tho. I understand that d2s are safe on block, like I’ve already said. So ducking is the only way to punish a d2, what is wrong with that exactly? Not to mention you can just stuff a d2 on startup with any mid in the game, it’s not a get out of jail free card that can be thrown out with impunity. Is the problem that you have to make a read in a fighting game? I mean you literally said yourself earlier that’s FG 101 lol, if d2s become unsafe on block then they’re going to be rather useless. You would get only 14% if you d2 and it lands like I’ve already said, except for the single time it can lead into a combo, and you would get full combo punished every time whether you duck or block the d2. Doesn’t seem necessary to make every d2 unsafe on block as well when it’s already a high and has lots of recovery on whiff.