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Guide Catch Me If You Can -- The Flash General Discussion Thread

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Exploring Sonic Pounds has never been more exciting. Turns out Barry can do a character specific combo for Sonic Pounds to blow up wake ups and have them respect the mix up.

For instance with Flash, if you do MB LK, into 11, 32, d3 (if I remember right), Flash has to respect the sonic pound, for if he wakes up with Flying Uppercut, Barry just hops over it at just the right time, with just enough frames to punish with charge. Any other wake ups will get stuffed or whiff.

So far I am looking into what I can find for character specific tech now, along with uses for Speed Dodge MB mid combo.
 

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
So I think Flash is definitely top 3 now with the new standing reset. What do you guys think?
Tested my sonic pound tech on half of the cast so far. All wake ups whiff on the characters I have tested so far (Nightwing, Green Arrow(Savage Blast hits due to animation), Aquaman, Batman, Death Stroke, Green Lantern, Batgirl (can teleport but I assume we have enough time to block and punish), Superman, Martian Man Hunter, Flash (he beats himself!), and Killer Frost), with this combo; any starter into MB LK, 32, d2, walk forward just a tad and d3. Depending on when you hit the d3 the far sonic pound will cross up and when it does, wake ups will whiff on Flash. If you decide to go for the raw pound no cross up, some wake ups with long start up will hit you like minigun from GL.

As for the Standing reset, guaranteed works on the whole cast, advantage depends on how well you hit as stated with max advantage being +3 from the basic combo; b22, MB LK, 3, d2 (let em fall a bit) and 32.

Just all the notes I got so far from testing. With all this being added to Flash's arsenal, I see him being top 3 easy, once he's in, you bet your ass you gotta respect his mix ups guarantee that.
 
I thought he was top 5 when the trait standing reset 50/50 was found, so with this new stuff on top of that, then yeah I could see a top 3 potential
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
I just played a really good Superman today and i find it hard to believe Flash is top 3. Can someone give me any reasoning why Flash is better than MMH, Superman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Batman? or even Batgirl, Green Lantern, Nightwing, Killer Frost, Wonder Woman? He is a solid rushdown and overall has everything a rushdown character should have. Despite all his tools, I feel like he is still outside of top 5 with all the tools other characters have. Flash finds a 1 meter reset and he is all of a sudden top 3? KF must be the best in the game then. I'd have to disagree on this one guys.. Flash is not top 3. (imo)
 

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
I just played a really good Superman today and i find it hard to believe Flash is top 3. Can someone give me any reasoning why Flash is better than MMH, Superman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Batman? or even Batgirl, Green Lantern, Nightwing, Killer Frost, Wonder Woman? He is a solid rushdown and overall has everything a rushdown character should have. Despite all his tools, I feel like he is still outside of top 5 with all the tools other characters have. Flash finds a 1 meter reset and he is all of a sudden top 3? KF must be the best in the game then. I'd have to disagree on this one guys.. Flash is not top 3. (imo)
Well I'll try and go into much detail for my reasoning as I can so here go's.

Its not the standing reset that's just there to mix up once in a while. But the ability to have free pressure and 50/50 on any starter with a bar through OTG sonic pounds now. Just the fact that he is a walking hard to react mix up with quite possible one of the best whiff punishing moves in the game was spectacular enough. Add in to account all his trait tech, corner mix ups, vortexes, great frame traps, stupid hitbox, and his advantage at the start of the round, Flash has a lot going for him to be number 3.

Character specific reasons, don't take them to heart. Just me playing sets and watching tournament videos and how Flash would compete at that level.

MMH: I don't have much experience versus him and just lab time, but I think he is the best in the game with all the tools hes got. Rushdown wise, you should only feel threatened when he's got trait and MB Orbs. possible 5-5 MMH

Wonder Woman: I believe she's the runner up in the game, great normals, amazing stances, air dash and some real good mix ups to boot. Goes even with Flash 5-5

Killer Frost: Slide, F3, vortex, and zoning that's Frosts game. Rushdown wise, I am certain she doesn't have more than 3 notable normals for pressure. Those being b1, d1, d2? her zoning's not really threatening either. Flash scores one good hit, goes to town on ol Frosty. 6-4

Batman: I would have said he was better at keeping us out and that's it, but with the nerf to b23 and trait, go in and he's done. 6-4 our favor.

Superman: I don't really see the struggle with Clark, if you block a Straight Laser you get a free dash in even if he meter burns it. The good poke got nerfed leaving Flash with more room to work with, now only gotta look out for Standing 3 into trait for his real mix ups on block. Again only played a couple of Supes who used every tool he had. 5-5

Black Adam: I can't even tell you, PSN lobbies have some of the worst examples of good Adam play. I believe its a 5-5 tho, always has been since the dash buff.

Green Lantern: When he's got you in the deadzone, get one good MB Lighting Charge, if you screw up he gets back to zoning. Just a typical match with the Lantern. 5-5 possible 6-4 GL's favor.

As for the other characters, don't wanna go into much detail, but fall on the same category as above. Everything that gives Flash trouble is minimal with the cast, besides Wonder Woman (to an extent) MMH and Batgirl.
 
I think he's top 5 because all he has to do is touch you, then your in a 43% trait combo that ends in a standing reset, with enough advantage to put you in a 50/50 witch can lead to another 38% combo for a loss of 80% just by being hit by a b2. Any character that can do this (frost, batgirl, now flash) are top 3-5 in my book.
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
All ANYONE has to do is touch you, not just Flash..
All Killer Frost has to do is touch you, then your in a 50/50 vortex until you die, or guess right
All Batgirl has to do is touch you, then your in a 50/50 vortex until you die.
All Green Lantern has to do is touch you, then your in a 60%+ reset.
All Batman has to do is touch you, then your in some weird reset possibly.
All Wonder Woman has to do is touch you, then your in a reset.
All Ares has to do is touch you, then your in a 60%+ reset.
All Joker has to do is touch you, then your in teeth resets.

Right now your top 5 are looking like KF, GL, WW, BG, BM, Joker or Ares. That doesn't sound like the most accurate top 5 at all.. The only difference Flash reset has is that he has to use 2 meters and a trait to do big damage. And the timing needs to be on point, let alone his meterless reset, which is near impossible online. I dont think his reset moves him up to top 3..considering how much he sacrifices. brizzle

I don't believe looking at matchup numbers is the best way to determine a tier list either. Its the tools that the character has available in specific situations. Flash has 3 footsie tools( B22, D12, and F2). 2 of which are only viable in close range. Every other string either whiffs on crouching opponents or is extremely close range(other than 32, which is unsafe). Close range Flash has, D12 and F2, Mid range - B22, Long range - nothing. (debatable LC/MB LC, both unsafe). Now if we look at a character lets just say NW. Close range - 11( 5 frames), 112( frame trap) D12( frame trap). Mid range - B2, Long range - Ground spark, Wing Ding. Not including staff stance...Imo, NW is a more well rounded character than Flash, and this goes for alot of characters. Enough to keep Flash out of top 5. Proper spacing and you can keep Flash out of his range. BoricuaHeat

This is my Top 5 in no particular order.
-MMH
-Batman
-Aquaman
-Black Adam
-Not to sure about this last slot. Killerfrost? Wonder Woman? Batgirl? Superman? Green Lantern?

Flash is still technical character who is always playing the other characters game. He has everything a rushdown character should have and is the perfect example of a rushdown character. Overall though he is lacking. Anything other than close range and you are playing your opponents game. There is a skill gap to use him as opposed to someone like Batgirl, just another reason why he is lower on the top 10 list.
 

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
I don't believe looking at matchup numbers is the best way to determine a tier list either. Its the tools that the character has available in specific situations. Flash has 3 footsie tools( B22, D12, and F2). 2 of which are only viable in close range. Every other string either whiffs on crouching opponents or is extremely close range(other than 32, which is unsafe). Close range Flash has, D12 and F2, Mid range - B22, Long range - nothing. (debatable LC/MB LC, both unsafe). Now if we look at a character lets just say NW. Close range - 11( 5 frames), 112( frame trap) D12( frame trap). Mid range - B2, Long range - Ground spark, Wing Ding. Not including staff stance...Imo, NW is a more well rounded character than Flash, and this goes for alot of characters. Enough to keep Flash out of top 5. Proper spacing and you can keep Flash out of his range. BoricuaHeat
To be fair, I should give a proper explanation before going off and saying Flash top 3. Also Flash's job is to go in his range and secure his dominance in the mix upsssss.

I will go into why Flash can compete in long range. We have four options to close the gap: RMS, far sonic pound, forward dash and lighting charge. All great options and play a mind game while staying safe. RMS run can be cancelled at any point for safety, and possible reversal after blocking a projectile then RMS run. Against say Nightwing Staff; he does ground pound, RMS run, cancel the run block and repeat. Not a very good scenario right, well let's add in the other tools. Far Sonic Pound, underused from many Flash players. Use it after cancelling from RMS run to catch people off guard and place them in block stun to stay in your range (note careful with your sonic pounds, if it whiffs you will need trait and meter just to stay safe). Now add in charge which forces the opponent to stay crouched for most off the match expecting charge which grants you two options now, forward dash and far sonic pound the latter which goes over our forward jump arc making it a good option. RMS can also give the opposition a reason to fear him long range. RMS charge comes out in 6 frames compared to 11 while running, overhead works as an anti air and slide from full screen on block is -5. That just about covers his options in long range all pretty viable.

I would go into more detail but don't want this turning into a damn essay! Mid range land a b22 then RMS cancel for +6 advantage for better frame traps or trait cancel to force a push block and if possible bait it. Close range........50/50 and frame traps etc etc, everything Flash does can be safe which is a lot of the reason why I believe he is top 3. I won't go into Nightwing for the sheer fact that I have limited knowledge on what he can do outside of 33 cancel advantage mix ups and stance cancel pressure.
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
To be fair, I should give a proper explanation before going off and saying Flash top 3. Also Flash's job is to go in his range and secure his dominance in the mix upsssss.

I will go into why Flash can compete in long range. We have four options to close the gap: RMS, far sonic pound, forward dash and lighting charge. All great options and play a mind game while staying safe. RMS run can be cancelled at any point for safety, and possible reversal after blocking a projectile then RMS run. Against say Nightwing Staff; he does ground pound, RMS run, cancel the run block and repeat. Not a very good scenario right, well let's add in the other tools. Far Sonic Pound, underused from many Flash players. Use it after cancelling from RMS run to catch people off guard and place them in block stun to stay in your range (note careful with your sonic pounds, if it whiffs you will need trait and meter just to stay safe). Now add in charge which forces the opponent to stay crouched for most off the match expecting charge which grants you two options now, forward dash and far sonic pound the latter which goes over our forward jump arc making it a good option. RMS can also give the opposition a reason to fear him long range. RMS charge comes out in 6 frames compared to 11 while running, overhead works as an anti air and slide from full screen on block is -5. That just about covers his options in long range all pretty viable.

I would go into more detail but don't want this turning into a damn essay! Mid range land a b22 then RMS cancel for +6 advantage for better frame traps or trait cancel to force a push block and if possible bait it. Close range........50/50 and frame traps etc etc, everything Flash does can be safe which is a lot of the reason why I believe he is top 3. I won't go into Nightwing for the sheer fact that I have limited knowledge on what he can do outside of 33 cancel advantage mix ups and stance cancel pressure.
Fair enough, but look at all the shit we have to do just to get in. While we're having a fucking aneurysm cancelling RMS block dash Far Sonic Pound etc..meanwhile our opponent is just like, ok BF1, oh blocked? BF1 ahh blocked again.. not a problem BF1... I agree Flash has all the tools a rushdown character should have. He has all the tools to get in, its still hard as shit though. We have to outplay so many other characters. Just look at Zyphox play against GL, or any other tournament level Flash, its hell to get in. We have to take almost a full health bar at times until we finally get in. Still hard for me to believe Flash is top 3, there are several characters better than him. (BF1 is cyborgs nova blaster :p)
 

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Fair enough, but look at all the shit we have to do just to get in. While we're having a fucking aneurysm cancelling RMS block dash Far Sonic Pound etc..meanwhile our opponent is just like, ok BF1, oh blocked? BF1 ahh blocked again.. not a problem BF1... I agree Flash has all the tools a rushdown character should have. He has all the tools to get in, its still hard as shit though. We have to outplay so many other characters. Just look at Zyphox play against GL, or any other tournament level Flash, its hell to get in. We have to take almost a full health bar at times until we finally get in. Still hard for me to believe Flash is top 3, there are several characters better than him. (BF1 is cyborgs nova blaster :p)
Well that's the fun of playing Flash, you gotta have the drive to get in and stay in especially against characters like GL. Once on the knockdown Flash is king and you earned that. It may be a little difficult compared to other characters but we get the biggest pay off, one full health bar with two right guesses (trait) and a throw.

That's just what we gotta deal with playing Flash, and I sub Shazam, let me tell you it's much easier playing Barry compared to Billy. One gets in easy but has a hard time converting off anything while the other (Flash) having a hard time getting in and getting easy coin flip mix up damage bom! Just all about how they're designed that's all that it comes down too.
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
Well that's the fun of playing Flash, you gotta have the drive to get in and stay in especially against characters like GL. Once on the knockdown Flash is king and you earned that. It may be a little difficult compared to other characters but we get the biggest pay off, one full health bar with two right guesses (trait) and a throw.

That's just what we gotta deal with playing Flash, and I sub Shazam, let me tell you it's much easier playing Barry compared to Billy. One gets in easy but has a hard time converting off anything while the other (Flash) having a hard time getting in and getting easy coin flip mix up damage bom! Just all about how they're designed that's all that it comes down too.
Very true, but other characters get the same damage or just about and they dont have to sacrifice as much as Barry. Like you said, two right guesses, 2 meters, a trait, and a throw to take a full life bar. Not to mention the struggle to get in and the health taken before we got in also. I guess that could be added in there as well. Now look at someone like batgirl, she can take a full health bar in an instant once shes in. Any meter? no, any trait? no, any health taken from getting in? no. She doesnt even struggle to get in. and our top 3's are MMH, WW, Flash? In my opinion Batgirl takes any spot Flash is even considered in.
 

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Very true, but other characters get the same damage or just about and they dont have to sacrifice as much as Barry. Like you said, two right guesses, 2 meters, a trait, and a throw to take a full life bar. Not to mention the struggle to get in and the health taken before we got in also. I guess that could be added in there as well. Now look at someone like batgirl, she can take a full health bar in an instant once shes in. Any meter? no, any trait? no, any health taken from getting in? no. She doesnt even struggle to get in. and our top 3's are MMH, WW, Flash? In my opinion Batgirl takes any spot Flash is even considered in.
Batgirl...........I forgot about Batgirl, screw Batgirlx3. For real though I am on the fence between Batgirl and Flash for my number 3 spot, both have safe 50/50, great long range specials (a freaking teleport), and corner damage. Batgirl also has a better wake up option that has you guess, and projectiles. But Flash has trait with all the tech surrounding that. GEEZ too much to consider between the two. Give me another month with the game versus Batgirl and I'll have a say on the matter.
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
Batgirl...........I forgot about Batgirl, screw Batgirlx3. For real though I am on the fence between Batgirl and Flash for my number 3 spot, both have safe 50/50, great long range specials (a freaking teleport), and corner damage. Batgirl also has a better wake up option that has you guess, and projectiles. But Flash has trait with all the tech surrounding that. GEEZ too much to consider between the two. Give me another month with the game versus Batgirl and I'll have a say on the matter.
Haha let the wait begin then !:D
 

SEV

Noob
Well I guess I opened this can of worms so I will put my two sense in. When people say Flash is a touch of death character, it is meant that given the tools that he has, up close, he probably has the best options in sustaining pressure/punishing. B2 is +4, B22 +3, D1D2 +2, LC(MB) +3, in trait Lightning Kick jails; even though these frame traps are escapable, we also have F2 and Lightning Charge to check them, and a 6 frame punish tool. Unlike against most characters, Flash effectively can make people fear back dashing/jumping pressure because we can always LC(MB) into full combo. So once we get in, unless if we are negative from failed aggression it, the enemy needs to always be cautious because he cannot safely back dash/jump to get out of the pressure. That is why Flash is considered a touch of death character because he can get in fast, and once he gets in, he has an option to counter every move you can make, but is just a matter of making the proper read. Characters like KF can put in great pressure, 50/50's, and can use slide to an extent to mirror Lightning Charge, but she doesn't have the options/tools to counter everything you do close range. If you jump because if you make a read on the slide, she doesn't have a tool to guarantee a punish, where as with Flash, if the enemy makes the wrong read, you should be able to punish if you can react quick enough. The reason I say is that he is now top 3 with a standing reset is because he was already an amazing character and even though he is already strong off of a hard knockdown, we can now sacrifice minimal damage, and retain pressure.
 

thatgoon24

Morphio24
Well I guess I opened this can of worms so I will put my two sense in. When people say Flash is a touch of death character, it is meant that given the tools that he has, up close, he probably has the best options in sustaining pressure/punishing. B2 is +4, B22 +3, D1D2 +2, LC(MB) +3, in trait Lightning Kick jails; even though these frame traps are escapable, we also have F2 and Lightning Charge to check them, and a 6 frame punish tool. Unlike against most characters, Flash effectively can make people fear back dashing/jumping pressure because we can always LC(MB) into full combo. So once we get in, unless if we are negative from failed aggression it, the enemy needs to always be cautious because he cannot safely back dash/jump to get out of the pressure. That is why Flash is considered a touch of death character because he can get in fast, and once he gets in, he has an option to counter every move you can make, but is just a matter of making the proper read. Characters like KF can put in great pressure, 50/50's, and can use slide to an extent to mirror Lightning Charge, but she doesn't have the options/tools to counter everything you do close range. If you jump because if you make a read on the slide, she doesn't have a tool to guarantee a punish, where as with Flash, if the enemy makes the wrong read, you should be able to punish if you can react quick enough. The reason I say is that he is now top 3 with a standing reset is because he was already an amazing character and even though he is already strong off of a hard knockdown, we can now sacrifice minimal damage, and retain pressure.

Having some good frame traps doesn't make a him the touch of death character though. Imo Batman has the best options in sustaining pressure. You'll be blocking for a good 30 seconds against Batman. Touch of death is being able to take a health bar after just opening your opponent once and that's really anyone with 50/50 vortex's or resets. Every time someone says "all he has to do is touch you" its always a Flash main. Its just overrating, when there are 10 other characters who do the same thing. I agree he has great pressure but he doesnt deserve to be called the "all he has to do is touch you character". Why would we call our own main that? were just asking for nerfs lol :p
 
Having some good frame traps doesn't make a him the touch of death character though. Imo Batman has the best options in sustaining pressure. You'll be blocking for a good 30 seconds against Batman. Touch of death is being able to take a health bar after just opening your opponent once and that's really anyone with 50/50 vortex's or resets. Every time someone says "all he has to do is touch you" its always a Flash main. Its just overrating, when there are 10 other characters who do the same thing. I agree he has great pressure but he doesnt deserve to be called the "all he has to do is touch you character". Why would we call our own main that? were just asking for nerfs lol :p
I just feel, like many others, that flash was a definite top 10-5 before the trait reset 50/50 you and BoricuaHeat found. I've been using that ever since I saw it and think its godlike. Since I thought he was that good before this tech, now that he has this and people keep finding more tech day after day(like the non traited standing reset) I think he's that much better now. Top 5 potential easily now imo, maybe top 3 was pushing it, but he definitely has the tools to feel like your using a top 3 character sometimes.
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
I just feel, like many others, that flash was a definite top 10-5 before the trait reset 50/50 you and BoricuaHeat found. I've been using that ever since I saw it and think its godlike. Since I thought he was that good before this tech, now that he has this and people keep finding more tech day after day(like the non traited standing reset) I think he's that much better now. Top 5 potential easily now imo, maybe top 3 was pushing it, but he definitely has the tools to feel like your using a top 3 character sometimes.

Who's better than flash to you ? What is/are flash weakness(es) to you ?
 
Who's better than flash to you ? What is/are flash weakness(es) to you ?
What I struggle with is gl b1, sm f2 ww laso, am trident and mmh orbs. Of those I think gl and ww beats flash. I think the top two are obviously mmh and am, and I think kf, bg, ww, flash and gl are all fighting for that number 3 spot
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
You didn't answer me about Flash's weaknesses ? What are they according to you ?

My top 5 :

GL
BA
WW
MMH
AM
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I need someone, anyone, who considers themselves to be a Flash loyalist to add me onto PSN. I'm looking to grind the match-up against different players so I can absorb different styles. Add NRF_Rude