Match-Up Discussion - Goro Buffs Goro needs so he doesn't lose to the whole cast

[Metzos]

I am only talking about KW. That is the only Variation I play. I totally understand that TF may be the way to go in certain matchups but I do not like it.

Now, what I mean by Goro being on the defense at full screen is when they (the opposing character) is attempting to zone you out. Take Kitana for example, GP does not trade, nor does SB so you would have to advance in, that takes a while for Goro, I am sure we are all aware of that by now. While you are advancing she can not do anything change her pattern try to catch you advancing with a EX Lift (RoyalStorm). She does outzone Goro, not to mention the reflect she has. Also forgot to mention Mournful Kitana She also outzone Goro fairly easy.

Predator (HQT) Not sure how you can trade with a GP since its slow start up and the Pew pews have the advantage simply because they are faster and knock you out of the animation.

Cassie's IAA are the same thing, if done properly they beat out GP, they hit you and whiff. So you have to rely on walking in and advancing and you better not press any buttons because Cassie is the best whiff punisher in the game. I understand they are like -22 or something on block, but I do not think that is the case when they are done IA.

Ermac Goro can do NOTHING full screen, so he has to advance. If Goro throws a projectile he eats 40%, Goro cannot telestomp at all because of the Vanish, full combo punish every time so that is also taken out of Goro's game plan. While up-close yes Goro has the advantage. Goro can only rely on pokes and punchwalk in this MU, and also not to mention the damage comparison is horrible since Ermac does not need meter for damage, and would usually have a breaker. I have played Big D in this matchup since Day 1 nothing has really changed.

Jacqui - What trade, start up on anything is too slow to trade, Yes she only does like 7% but the bullets break EX PW, she has the best walkback speed in the game and also has really good AA. When Goro is in I agree he dominates her, she has terrible pokes and cannot out footsie Goro. Also if Jacqui reads a projectile she can absorb it.

Kano - both are tough and Commando maybe worse, but since it's a 50/50 guess on the parry it's not as easy as it seems on paper. If the CY Kano player reads a EX Punchwalk they do a EX Knife, they win the trade, one of the few characters that can do this.

They way I see it is like this, Goro has the slowest walk-speed in the game, that is without question. But why give him NOTHING to advancing with? a 16f mid that has decent range at best. A Chest Lunge that is Variation specific that is super punishable on block. D4 is a nice tool but not a whiff punisher, a whilf punisher that any other character in the GAME has. Also giving Goro the worst back dash in the game.

Also like people have stated before this post, just because those zoning options are easy to get around with certain characters does not mean they are the same with Goro, simply because of the walk / run speed.

That is my point. @Metzos If you see it differently than me, so be it. This is my opinion on what this character needs to be able to win a Major. Isn't that what we want from a game, is for EVERY character to win a major?

Agreed, but that does not mean automatically that Goro loses the MU. We all know zoning in MKX is a joke, which means that eventually Kitana will lead herself in the corner if the only thing she does is zoning. She will have to take risks in order to avoid being in the corner.

Ground pound makes HQT's Predator's horizontal lasers whiff since its a true high projectile. Lab it. Low lasers will trade with the first hit of ground pound which means the damage is almost the same at both sides. Not to mention the fact that Goro can sacrifice one bar for ex Stomp on reaction to lasers and boom he is in.

What applies with Kitana's zoning applies with Cassie's zoning as well. Only difference is up close, Cassie does better than Kitana in general.

Regarding Ermac, i really dont believe after the patch he can punish a whiffed Stomp after a vanish, unless its based on a read, which still is extremely hard to do so. Vanish has recovery frames after Ermac appears. He does not attack immidiately.

I m not talking theory about Commando Kano. I have played the MU after the patch, a lot. Tbh with you its very fun MU to play against, i really enjoyed it. Agreed with ex knives on Cyber, but still, Goro has more openings to use expw, than Kano when up close. I didnt mean throw random expws to break in Kano's zoning. I meant up close. Its a guessing game from both sides, but the reward is in Goro's favor damage wise.

Goro is not a whiff punisher, most people dont seem to understand that. He creates spacing, continuous pressure and forces the opponent to guess all the time, much like how DD was in IGAU. His normals were below average, except his d1, but guess what? His wall carry was amazing, on hit and on block, much like Goro, his pokes were amazing, much like Goro, his meter build on block was amazing, much like Goro's and his counter zoning was really good as well, similar to Goro's. Only difference is the dash and backdash factor. Even their walk speed is almost the same.

The reason i posted what i posted before, is because you started saying that he loses almost against the entire cast and when i asked you why, you brought up the zoning factor in most of the MUs, which is laughable, because zoning in MKX, is like the dinosaurs. Extinct (except 2 or 3 characters). Just because he lacks a good walkspeed does not mean he gets zoned out. All it requires is one good read and he is in. One bad thing he has does not outweigh all the good tools he has as well. Imo he is not bottom 5, especially after the patch (speaking for KW ofc).

 

[Youphemism]

Just because he lacks a good walkspeed does not mean he gets zoned out. All it requires is one good read and he is in. One bad thing he has does not outweigh all the good tools he has as well. Imo he is not bottom 5, especially after the patch (speaking for KW ofc).

I repeat, average walkspeed.

 

[Metzos]

I repeat, average walkspeed.

I meant bad according to Ryan. The first thing i tested was Goro's movement when i started playing him. Have you tried doing walk cancels and see how he moves?

 

[Youphemism]

I meant bad according to Ryan. The first thing i tested was Goro's movement when i started playing him. Have you tried doing walk cancels and see how he moves?

Well you testing his movement first is great and all but doesn't really change his walkspeed lol. What do you mean walk cancels? I was just reaffirming that he has an average walkspeed, that's all.

 

[Metzos]

Well you testing his movement first is great and all but doesn't really change his walkspeed lol. What do you mean walk cancels? I was just reaffirming that he has an average walkspeed, that's all.

Try moving back and forth. His start up walk speed is really good. I personally use it during footsies. I found this with Hidan during the first days of the game.

 

[Youphemism]

Try moving back and forth. His start up walk speed is really good. I personally use it during footsies. I found this with Hidan during the first days of the game.

Yeah that applies to several characters, it makes Jacqui's walkspeed even faster and she has the third fastest walkspeed in the game already lmao.

 

[DarkFire*]

If Goro's f3 had 11 or 12f startup, he would break everyone m8. Do you realize what you are saying? Take Goro as he is right now and add to him an 11 or 12f f3. Automatically top 5 character.

WHAT THEEEEEEE

absolutely not lol

there is NO way even if he had that that he would be better than Tanya or D'Vorah, who I (along with many other players) think currently hold the #4/#5 spot. And if he's not better than them then he certainly isn't better than Kung Lao, Quan Chi, or Shinnok

Sorry, just had to point that out

I edited my post by the way because it made it seem like I'm a top player too, but I can admit I'm not lol I just meant to say a majority of them think as I do

 

[Metzos]

WHAT THEEEEEEE

absolutely not lol

there is NO way even if he had that that he would be better than Tanya or D'Vorah, who I thnk (along with many other top players) currently hold the #4/#5 spot. And if he's not better than them then he certainly isn't better than Kung Lao, Quan Chi, or Shinnok

Sorry, just had to point that out

Lets agree to disagree then. Also read below what you have quoted and you ll see why i wrote what i wrote.

 

[ArmedCalf]

@AoK Ryan little late on this sorry. I agree that Imposter has a great time against Goro, but I mean Armour beat me 2-1 when we played. Stealing a free like 13-15% stomp is lovely and I can definitely keep you out with Hell Sparks but Imposter wants to be up close. Goro has some pretty decent stuff to stay plus, or at least that's what it seemed like. I'm not disagreeing that Goro is bottom 3 or that this is one of his worst MU's, I just think he may be better than I thought he was.

 

[The Highlander]

Yeah that applies to several characters, it makes Jacqui's walkspeed even faster and she has the third fastest walkspeed in the game already lmao.

There are characters with faster walk speeds than jacqui?

 

[Youphemism]

There are characters with faster walk speeds than jacqui?

Yup, Kitana and Liu Kang have faster backwards walkspeeds and Kotal has a faster forward walkspeed.

 

[Vintagesoul]

Happy to see the Goro forums so active for a change. But now I'm curious- what do the TF players consider their bad matchups? How. Many 4:6s? Any 3:7s?

@Espio @BunLantern @chief713

And anyone else I've left out

 

[loogie]

NOBODY has said he isn't Viable. Where are you getting this from? I will repeat my self again. Even the WORST character in this game is still a threat, may it bet Jason, Goro or any-other character they are still a threat, Unlike MK9 with Sheeva / Baraka or even Stryker.

Every Goro play agrees that Sub is one of Goro's best matchups. But this is coming from the person who thought Goro vs Shinnok is even.

your rationale and justifications for asking f3 to be faster is very weak, it seems you want every matchup to be a walk in the park and asking for NRS to make it happen
Metzos just broke down his best tools for you and weighed in the matchup discussions that you found to be 'losing matchups' but you still insist on asking for buffs
Goro is not the worst character and Goro is not bottom five... Goro is just outside of top10
if you don't see that, you are not playing the character to it's strengths and maybe it's time to move on and pick a main where wins will be 'easy' and could suit your play style better.

PS: DJT only lost that match cause of dropped inputs at the end, he drops a combo/string right at the end. not like Goro dominated...

 

[chief713]

Happy to see the Goro forums so active for a change. But now I'm curious- what do the TF players consider their bad matchups? How. Many 4:6s? Any 3:7s?

@Espio @BunLantern @chief713

And anyone else I've left out

Honestly, I haven't played any matchup enough after the patch to say one way or the other. As far as TF in general, I can say that I was underestimating the buffed up Flame ball. I was able to counterzone Full Auto Jacqui with it with some success. Much more than pre-patch at least. And it's been a similar story across pretty much all the matchups I've played.

Like I used DF for the nuance of being able to punish jump ins with authority, I'm using TF now mostly on the nuance of being able to control space a lot better against non-teleporters. Flame breath traps are tight too lol.

@Destroy_Scvm

 

[loogie]

Honestly, I haven't played any matchup enough after the patch to say one way or the other. As far as TF in general, I can say that I was underestimating the buffed up Flame ball. I was able to counterzone Full Auto Jacqui with it with some success. Much more than pre-patch at least. And it's been a similar story across pretty much all the matchups I've played.

Like I used DF for the nuance of being able to punish jump ins with authority, I'm using TF now mostly on the nuance of being able to control space a lot better against non-teleporters. Flame breath traps are tight too lol.

@Destroy_Scvm

thank you
this is exactly why it is often too premature to ask for buffs right after the character receives good chunk of buffs...
people don't play a character properly then ask for buffed up mids that could potentially wreck matchups

 

[Vintagesoul]

Honestly, I haven't played any matchup enough after the patch to say one way or the other. As far as TF in general, I can say that I was underestimating the buffed up Flame ball. I was able to counterzone Full Auto Jacqui with it with some success. Much more than pre-patch at least. And it's been a similar story across pretty much all the matchups I've played.

Like I used DF for the nuance of being able to punish jump ins with authority, I'm using TF now mostly on the nuance of being able to control space a lot better against non-teleporters. Flame breath traps are tight too lol.

@Destroy_Scvm

Thank you for this. I was beginning to wonder if I was crazy for suggesting earlier that TF isn't totally outzoned by Jacqui.

 

[BunLantern]

Happy to see the Goro forums so active for a change. But now I'm curious- what do the TF players consider their bad matchups? How. Many 4:6s? Any 3:7s?

@Espio @BunLantern @chief713

And anyone else I've left out

Yea it's pretty sweet. It's still pretty early in the patch for exact match ups but so far I feel like KJ Tanya might be his only existing 3-7. Matches like Shinnok and Kung Lao seem to have become more manageable.

This early on I'd say his 5 worst match ups are as follows.

1. Tanya
2. Kung Lao
3. DF/FF Liu Kang
4. HQT Pred
5. Kitana/Shinnok

I'll post exact reasonings for each when I'm not at work

 

[thlityoursloat]

I honestly don't think Tanya is that bad of a matchup for him since he can yolo EX PW through the gaps and not worry at all about his armor being broken.
It's honestly a much better matchup than a lot of the other characters, including Johnny and Kenshi, the bitch broke my armor 4 times.

 

[Alright RyRy]

your rationale and justifications for asking f3 to be faster is very weak, it seems you want every matchup to be a walk in the park and asking for NRS to make it happen
Metzos just broke down his best tools for you and weighed in the matchup discussions that you found to be 'losing matchups' but you still insist on asking for buffs
Goro is not the worst character and Goro is not bottom five... Goro is just outside of top10
if you don't see that, you are not playing the character to it's strengths and maybe it's time to move on and pick a main where wins will be 'easy' and could suit your play style better.

PS: DJT only lost that match cause of dropped inputs at the end, he drops a combo/string right at the end. not like Goro dominated...

Lol. Goro just outside of the top 10. Thanks for making my morning.

I understand what @Metzos is saying, but I can not take you seriously, you seem to not understand the game.

I'm going to make a list and you tell me if Goro is better than that character.

Tanya
KJ
Jacqui
Cassie
Takeda
Mileena
Sub Zero
Scorpion
Kitana
Kenshi
Sonya
Jax
KL
Jason
Predator
Shinnok
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Liu Kang
Ermac
Kotal Kahn
Reptile
Ferra Torr
D'Vorah
Raiden
Quan
Tremor.

@FOREVER KING what is your thoughts on Goro being just outside of the top ten, since you are the most accomplished player that uses Goro.

 

[loogie]

Lol. Goro just outside of the top 10. Thanks for making my morning.

I understand what @Metzos is saying, but I can not take you seriously, you seem to not understand the game.

I'm going to make a list and you tell me if Goro is better than that character.

Tanya
KJ
Jacqui
Cassie
Takeda
Mileena
Sub Zero
Scorpion
Kitana
Kenshi
Sonya
Jax
KL
Jason
Predator
Shinnok
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Liu Kang
Ermac
Kotal Kahn
Reptile
Ferra Torr
D'Vorah
Raiden
Quan
Tremor.

@FOREVER KING what is your thoughts on Goro being just outside of the top ten, since you are the most accomplished player that uses Goro.

I didn't say anything much different than what Metzos had said, and the very same points I discussed in person with Metzos. So you can hold that. Why don't you engage in a meaningful discussion with him, can be in private too, so you get a better understanding of your own character that you seem to be using oh so very wrongly.

are you playing stupid now with the list, you yourself listed down his 'bad matchups' and bar 4-5 you were proven wrong not just by Metzos but others in the thread too. Now you listing down the entire cast ... and what are the criteria of being 'better' than another character? are all characters created with similar tools?

you just want every tool there is out there, so you win more online matches. good luck.

 

[Espio]

Happy to see the Goro forums so active for a change. But now I'm curious- what do the TF players consider their bad matchups? How. Many 4:6s? Any 3:7s?

@Espio @BunLantern @chief713

And anyone else I've left out

I feel like it's way too early to say yet cause some of these undoubtedly got better for us, but Boneshaper Shinnok and Hellfire Scorpion are the only two match ups I've felt notably outgunned in. Kobu Jutsu Tanya, Tempest Kung Lao, Bojutsu Kung Jin and Summoner Quan Chi I'd say are 4-6 now all for varying reasons, but he can keep up with them so it's not that big of a deal.

Straight fireball is so awesome now, I love it against zoners, catches Mournful Kitana a good amount when she goes airborne and checks a lot of zoning far better although I've always been a huge believer in the strength of Tigrar. 8% projectiles that can force people to come to you if used intelligently is a big deal. He could do this prepatch, but even more so now he can zone Lackey Ferra/Torr, Cage, Kotal and some others.

I feel like he's super competitive now. I know you didn't ask this question but some additional thoughts below.

I think Goro beats: Piercing/Ravenous Mileena, Lackey Ferra/Torr, Relentless Jason at the moment. Sub could go here down the line, maybe Takeda as well.

Really fun or even mus: Grandmaster Sub-Zero (could be better),Hollywood Cassie, Shirai Ryu Takeda (could be better), Royal Storm/Assassin Kitana, Pumped up/Wrestler Jax, Stunt Double Cage, Cybernetic/Cuttthroat Kano.


The rest of the variations I either know nothing about or don't have enough experience to say.

I will probably make in depth match up analysis for: Cassie Sub-Zero, Mileena, Johnny, and Kitana in the coming months since I'd say I know those characters best and have co mained or used Johnny, Cassie and Kitana as secondaries before.

 

[MAN0]

Lol. Goro just outside of the top 10. Thanks for making my morning.

I understand what @Metzos is saying, but I can not take you seriously, you seem to not understand the game.

I'm going to make a list and you tell me if Goro is better than that character.

Tanya
KJ
Jacqui
Cassie
Takeda
Mileena
Sub Zero
Scorpion
Kitana
Kenshi
Sonya
Jax
KL
Jason
Predator
Shinnok
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Liu Kang
Ermac
Kotal Kahn
Reptile
Ferra Torr
D'Vorah
Raiden
Quan
Tremor.

@FOREVER KING what is your thoughts on Goro being just outside of the top ten, since you are the most accomplished player that uses Goro.

No you don't seem to understand what @Metzos is saying if you insist that Goro gets beaten by the whole cast you inserted above. @loogie is a great player that understands the game's mechanics very well and he gave you some facts, you on the other hand are expecting foreverking to clear you out. I don't see that happening.

 

[Alright RyRy]

I didn't say anything much different than what Metzos had said, and the very same points I discussed in person with Metzos. So you can hold that. Why don't you engage in a meaningful discussion with him, can be in private too, so you get a better understanding of your own character that you seem to be using oh so very wrongly.

are you playing stupid now with the list, you yourself listed down his 'bad matchups' and bar 4-5 you were proven wrong not just by Metzos but others in the thread too. Now you listing down the entire cast ... and what are the criteria of being 'better' than another character? are all characters created with similar tools?

you just want every tool there is out there, so you win more online matches. good luck.

I am not an online warrior, I actually go to majors and do well. So before you state false statements please do some research.

I also participate in an online tournament called WNF and use only Goro and Jason. Mostly Goro since I do not know alot of matchups with Jason. And I do really well. Check the past brackets.

So when you 2 guys go to tournaments please message me so I can watch and be proved wrong.

I do not doubt any players skill, but if this character is as good as you guys are saying then we should start seeing Goro placing higher at majors.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You can't look at it as a statistic. That's now how it works, there is a different meaning to 6-4 depending on the game.

MK9 6-4s barely mattered, they were nearly irrelevant. Injustice 6-4s were a decent advantage and that's where even slightly bad matchups started to become noticeable. MKX looks to be the same.

SF4 6-4 is a significant advantage while 7-3 is near unwinnable.

You have to look at how a matchup is 6-4 based on the game engine. Whether it's a game engine in which 6-4 means you rarely get in or have to guess 50-50s or that your normals are not effective at all. Ignoring that just means you don't understand the theme each game is centered around and the mechanics valued. In a game where the neutral is the door you have to walk through to get anything going, that's what matters while in games where you want to impose offense like MKX, the most assertive character has the advantage.

The sonic boom is one of the reasons why the matchup is bad but that's not entirely it.

This is why matchup numbers are retarded, you're legitimately trying to argue that a 60% likelihood of winning in 1 game is more or less likely than a 60% chance of winning in a another game?

A 60% chance is a 60% chance.

And such, matchup numbers are useless AND NOT ONCE have I ever seen them assist anything.

 

[Alright RyRy]

No you don't seem to understand what @Metzos is saying if you insist that Goro gets beaten by the whole cast you inserted above. @loogie is a great player that understands the game's mechanics very well and he gave you some facts, you on the other hand are expecting foreverking to clear you out. I don't see that happening.

Please read.

I did not list the entire cast, false information getting thrown out once again.

The list I made is the list of characters I think Goro loses to. I have played top players that represent those characters, but that is my matchup chart for KW.

Please do not state things that I did not say.

Also I still fail to realize how giving Goro even a 13 frame F2 or F3 would "break" the character, I feel like it would complete him since he would be able to so what every other character is is this game does in whiff punish.