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Black Manta Matchup Thread

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
The risk/reward is also a bit out of whack in my opinion. If they guess wrong, you deal a small chunk of damage and get to try to keep your pressure up; if they guess correctly, you eat a full combo. But time will tell, I suppose.
 
can't you just outfootsie aqua, fly around chucking spears and punish midscreen? i feel like he'd do fine vs aqua, im sure f213 has enough pushback to keep you in good footsies distance. I'm sure he does okay in any footsie matchup.
 

REYTHEGREAT

..........................
I think he loses 6-4 against Starfire. She out zones him and she cant d1, special for a nice chunk of damage. You have to be very patient and on point with reads to beat her.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
I think he loses 6-4 against Starfire. She out zones him and she cant d1, special for a nice chunk of damage. You have to be very patient and on point with reads to beat her.
I'd have to play the match up more, but the teleport helps if they get kareless... Then once they start respecting that, then you kan start dashing in more... It didn't feel bad when I played it, but I haven't played many good Starfires.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Black Magic can be punished but not From The Deep. However, if you ever played Zod versus Aquaman in Injustice 1, Shark Attack punishes From The Deep from similar ranges that Zod Charge did. I have not experimented with instant aerial Shark Attack yet, though.
Instant Ait Shark Attack punishes FTD from max range whereas the reversal Shark Attack does not... I tested this earlier today after playing an Aquaman.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
So if you block f23 breath and think he's going to f23 again, why don't you interrupt with B1? That should work. He could shimmy and whiff punish but that's the read.
I tested it and it trades... Though the 12 string beats it out... This makes sense too since breath is -1 on block and Manta's B1 is 9 frames whereas Superman's F2 is 8... Manta's standing 1 is 8 frames as well. I thought, since you posted this, that the spacing made it kleanly beat it out, but that's not the kase...
 

Tweedy

Noob
I think he loses 6-4 against Starfire. She out zones him and she cant d1, special for a nice chunk of damage. You have to be very patient and on point with reads to beat her.
Outzoning Black Manta isn't a huge point since he's not even close to being a zoner. Idk what you mean by the 2nd point. She can or can't d1 special for a nice chunk of damage? You put can't but idk how that is a point towards Starfire winning the mu.

Can we not throw out match up numbers with LITTLE information to back them up this early?
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
How are you all dealing with Black Adam? I'm finding him still pretty dominant from just about every range, though I still suck pretty hard with Manta.
I don't think Adam is that much of a problem. It feels 5-5 since he basically has a better version of our B1 but we outrange him with F2. Adam will have damage and pressure, but Manta does decent damage and there's nothing really oppressive about Adam when we kan bully him on knockdown and punish his ranged options.

Offline, it's the same deal of reacting to Adam's F1 with D1 and getting an air kombo.
With Manta, I would do D1, B11, B11U3~DB3... Though, I have no scene where I am at, so I don't often go for that online.

Also, if they're not kommiting quickly, Manta's B1 kan check him since it's only a frame slower...
 

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
Casual Josh here but I'm having trouble against him with GL at the moment. I can punish MB teleport fairly consistently with D2 as long as the connection is good, lol. But the neutral is where I'm struggling. I don't really care for MU numbers but I agree with you that this seems in Manta's favor so far.
Hold on bruh I never said the MU was in Manta's favor. I just said I dont see how it can be considered a losing MU yet as some people claim it to be already. Since they are experts and know him in 3-4 days already. :rolleyes:

All MUs should be considered even until more time has passed. Its better to discuss what options we have vs characters rather than numbers.

i guess, its still really early into black manta's life, seems like something that could be stopped on reaction down the road.
Say you were to play someone in a tourney set, or even ranked now, and when they use F21 they always end it with the full string or MB Laser. Set is tied 2-2 last round, and for the first time in the entire set they do F21 Rocket. Are you going to react to that? Legit question im asking.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Hold on bruh I never said the MU was in Manta's favor. I just said I dont see how it can be considered a losing MU yet as some people claim it to be already. Since they are experts and know him in 3-4 days already. :rolleyes:

All MUs should be considered even until more time has passed. Its better to discuss what options we have vs characters rather than numbers.



Say you were to play someone in a tourney set, or even ranked now, and when they use F21 they always end it with the full string or MB Laser. Set is tied 2-2 last round, and for the first time in the entire set they do F21 Rocket. Are you going to react to that? Legit question im asking.
if i've gotten used to manta, and can see the rocket? yeah probably, in fact i'd be fishing for it, hoping they actually go for a rocket so i can get some damage.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Say you were to play someone in a tourney set, or even ranked now, and when they use F21 they always end it with the full string or MB Laser. Set is tied 2-2 last round, and for the first time in the entire set they do F21 Rocket. Are you going to react to that? Legit question im asking.
Offline, yes... Online... No.

It's because it hits high, that this is possible konsistently. They should have made it a mid with how much of a gap there is...

There are other options to maintain pressure though.
 

REYTHEGREAT

..........................
Outzoning Black Manta isn't a huge point since he's not even close to being a zoner. Idk what you mean by the 2nd point. She can or can't d1 special for a nice chunk of damage? You put can't but idk how that is a point towards Starfire winning the mu.

Can we not throw out match up numbers with LITTLE information to back them up this early?
I meant to say can. She can do D1, MB starbust for a combo, while black manta can only do D1 laser. Maybe im wrong here but isnt black mantas d1 7 frames and starfires 6?
 
It may just be that I have to learn this dude's strings and such, but he's been a pain for me so far.

I learned with Cyborg that you either want to be far far (like a million miles away far) away from the opponent, OR, super dee dooper close. That way you pester with projectiles or plus strings, eventually gaining respect for other shinanigans. However, Manta seems to want to play sweep distance at all times seeing as he has those obnoxious ass advancing combos (ughhh can borg just have one decent advancing combo that doesn't get whiff punished ALL the time lol). I think the matchup is bad only because I can't get where I want to be with this guy. If I want to go full screen, I normally hook away or sometimes even back jump/dash out. But Manta says "not in my house" every time with that annoying teleport lol (shades of mk3 smoke in this bish). He also has a super fast air attack that limits my IAFs.

anywho, im no super pro by any means, but that's what i've picked up so far. hope this helps someone
 

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
So for anyone who may be struggling in the Black Adam MU, I think using quick little bursts of trait in neutral can be helpful in getting in on him and limiting his options.


I think using tactics like jumping forward from fullscreen and cancelling into trait instead of landing in order to bait Low Lightning checks (can also punish whiffed Black Magic and Regular Low Lightning) and punish them on reaction can be helpful as well. The counter to this would be Black Magic if the Manta player is low enough to the ground. Manta players can probably adapt to that by doing insta air Trait cancels to bait Black Magic which if baited, is full combo punishable by reversal Teleport. Divekicks can be punished as well, either by reacting to them jumping if it isn't an instant divekick, or just going yolo and happen to catch them.

This strategy might work in the Aquaman and Poison Ivy MUs as well, tho executed a tad differently since you need to be higher off the ground to avoid FTD/Drills. Im just trying to see what options Manta has in different MUs.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
It may just be that I have to learn this dude's strings and such, but he's been a pain for me so far.

I learned with Cyborg that you either want to be far far (like a million miles away far) away from the opponent, OR, super dee dooper close. That way you pester with projectiles or plus strings, eventually gaining respect for other shinanigans. However, Manta seems to want to play sweep distance at all times seeing as he has those obnoxious ass advancing combos (ughhh can borg just have one decent advancing combo that doesn't get whiff punished ALL the time lol). I think the matchup is bad only because I can't get where I want to be with this guy. If I want to go full screen, I normally hook away or sometimes even back jump/dash out. But Manta says "not in my house" every time with that annoying teleport lol (shades of mk3 smoke in this bish). He also has a super fast air attack that limits my IAFs.

anywho, im no super pro by any means, but that's what i've picked up so far. hope this helps someone
Have you tried using air normals to stuff it on your jump back? It has pretty low priority since I have gotten hit out of it with some character's D1 or D3...
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
So for anyone who may be struggling in the Black Adam MU, I think using quick little bursts of trait in neutral can be helpful in getting in on him and limiting his options.


I think using tactics like jumping forward from fullscreen and cancelling into trait instead of landing in order to bait Low Lightning checks (can also punish whiffed Black Magic and Regular Low Lightning) and punish them on reaction can be helpful as well. The counter to this would be Black Magic if the Manta player is low enough to the ground. Manta players can probably adapt to that by doing insta air Trait cancels to bait Black Magic which if baited, is full combo punishable by reversal Teleport. Divekicks can be punished as well, either by reacting to them jumping if it isn't an instant divekick, or just going yolo and happen to catch them.

This strategy might work in the Aquaman and Poison Ivy MUs as well, tho executed a tad differently since you need to be higher off the ground to avoid FTD/Drills. Im just trying to see what options Manta has in different MUs.
Yeah, good to note. I kind of want to have a forum for every match up... lol.

I've been mostly jumping and then traiting, but I should start using raw trait more. I don't know why I didn't think of that. It mixes up our approach more.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
So against Superman why are we talking about having to hold breath pressure when our backdash is god tier? Literally backdash and whiff punish F23, make him think about doing shit after that. Can react to him doing any air dash with a DP punish. DP in general keeps his zoning in check (yea he can bait it but then youre getting in at that point cuz he's busy baiting) on knockdown he dies like every other matchup. It's at least 5-5 if not in our favor.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
So against Superman why are we talking about having to hold breath pressure when our backdash is god tier? Literally backdash and whiff punish F23, make him think about doing shit after that. Can react to him doing any air dash with a DP punish. DP in general keeps his zoning in check (yea he can bait it but then youre getting in at that point cuz he's busy baiting) on knockdown he dies like every other matchup. It's at least 5-5 if not in our favor.
I forget I kan backdash, because I mained Arrow. lol. But yeah. That's good. Also, you saying DP, made me think he had a good reversal launcher..
 

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
Hey sup guys. To continue from my last post, I wanted to make an update to show that the strategy in my previous post is actually legit. I managed to successfully use it multiple times in a real match. My theory fighting became reality today!



Hope more Manta players will incorporate this into their gameplan vs certain characters. :)
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Hey sup guys. To continue from my last post, I wanted to make an update to show that the strategy in my previous post is actually legit. I managed to successfully use it multiple times in a real match. My theory fighting became reality today!



Hope more Manta players will incorporate this into their gameplan vs certain characters. :)
Not the same as against Black Adam because he has dive kicks and black magic, but it's a step... lol.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
I'm thinking of making an oki thread..

Would anyone be willing to kontribute? Specifically, since different kombos give slightly different knockdown advantage, I'm thinking of getting a list of the max damage kombos that lead to enough of a knockdown advantage to give meaty opportunities and shut down wake ups. It doesn't have to be meaty set ups, but basically any set up other than block and punish.

I have started working on Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Green Lantern so far.

To quote myself, from another thread: Here's what I mean by slight knockdown differences:

End in air harpoon and time your meaty. On Aquaman for example, you kan do a B2 meaty or very slight walk forward into standing 2. You kan also do F2, but you have to do the right kombos for that. For example, if you do B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3, you don't have enough knockdown advantage to get the F2, but if you drop one of the B11 strings, you have enough advantage to do it: B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3. Then it kovers both wake ups AND backdash...
And some character's wake ups are slower, so if you want to kover both the wake up AND the backdash against another character, you might not have to drop the extra hits on your highest damage kombo, etc...

Let me know if you're willing to kontribute to this. If you don't know what to test, I kan also help point you in the right direction. It's just a lot to do alone for all characters in the game.

@karaokelove @John Grizzly @myri @Marinjuana @Tweedy @Vigilante24 @Darth Mao @masherofbuttons @Doctor Angel @EntropicByDesign @CrazyFingers @REYTHEGREAT @REO @Reauxbot
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
I'm thinking of making an oki thread..

Would anyone be willing to kontribute? Specifically, since different kombos give slightly different knockdown advantage, I'm thinking of getting a list of the max damage kombos that lead to enough of a knockdown advantage to give meaty opportunities and shut down wake ups. It doesn't have to be meaty set ups, but basically any set up other than block and punish.

I have started working on Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Green Lantern so far.

To quote myself, from another thread: Here's what I mean by slight knockdown differences:



And some character's wake ups are slower, so if you want to kover both the wake up AND the backdash against another character, you might not have to drop the extra hits on your highest damage kombo, etc...

Let me know if you're willing to kontribute to this. If you don't know what to test, I kan also help point you in the right direction. It's just a lot to do alone for all characters in the game.

@karaokelove @John Grizzly @myri @Marinjuana @Tweedy @Vigilante24 @Darth Mao @masherofbuttons @Doctor Angel @EntropicByDesign @CrazyFingers @REYTHEGREAT @REO @Reauxbot
I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute, but thanks for the tag and I think it's a good idea. I'd really like to know what invincible wakeups are stuffed by his 21 string. It seems to stuff his own wakeup in the mirror match, which I found surprising.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
Damn. I infuriated this Black Adam player.
He kept foot diving on my rockets and lasers.
I even pulled him out his dive with air harpoon.