1232 knockdown, the MVP.

[Chernyy Volk]

I made a topic previously discussing how this sets up some good Oki. I've decided to start compiling a list of how this allows you to stuff almost every single wakeup in this game. Answers differ from character to character, but the distance 1232 leaves you at as either a punish or combo ender allows you to simply stalemate a ton of characters, forcing them to always have to backdash, which opens up mind games there because backdashes get owned up by f21 on wakeup. I'm going to create a list of characters who are universally stuffable, and expound on some more character specific answers.

I'm mainly coming at this from 1232 being a combo ender, so as a test "group", a standard BnB such as 123~df3MB, 1232 is the standard here. This is a work in progress, this is only what I've discovered so far.

Characters that are straight up universally stuffed by simply doing laser (bf1) immediately after this knockdown. This means that they have NO CHOICE but to block or backdash. The laser will always full hit, or straight up break through the I-frames and at least clip with one or two hits.

Superman
Green Lantern
Supergirl
Green Arrow
Cat Woman
Wonder Woman
Black Canary
Flash
Cheetah
Black Adam

Characters that require specific blowup tech or have specific optimal blowups on invincible wakeups in particular.

Batman
Captain Cold
Sub Zero
Wonder Woman
Harley Quinn
Swamp Thing
Blue Beetle
Black Adam

The Batman Specific Oki situation

Batman is forced into a 50/50 based on the wakeup he chooses. One option is for slide and parry, one option is for the rest. This is a 100% hard read against the Batman player, you must perform your followup immediately after 1232 ASAP.

The slide/parry blowup
Batman has to take a huge risk in doing his two most conventional wakeups. Both are full combo punishable in a auto pilot way that allows you to not even have to look for the slide in particular.

To blow up these two options, do your standard BnB that ends in 1232, do an immediate 4~db2. The missile will whiff punish Batman on both options. If it's the slide, you cancel trait into whatever BnB you want. If it hits the parry, you'll have to settle for f21 into whatever you want. This is super braindead to hit confirm.

The batarang/grapple blowup.

The answer here is quite crazy. F3 low profiles in it's ending frames. If you do the F3 as soon as the 1232 is over, grapple, batarang, all of it goes over your head and they get bopped.

You can also simply use delayed MB f3's to 100% cover every option to eliminate the 50/50 altogether and just straight up force the block or backdash.

I'll update this thread with more info, but this is definite strategy worth knowing. Some characters just get suffocated by this situation.

 

[God Confirm]

good thread, but you might want to reword the bit about forcing batman into a 50/50, you're the one who has to make a 50/50 read on his wake up assuming he wakes up at all, to counter it

 

[Chernyy Volk]

good thread, but you might want to reword the bit about forcing batman into a 50/50, you're the one who has to make a 50/50 read on his wake up assuming he wakes up at all, to counter it

I guess you're right. I just felt 50/50 was appropriate because it still is determined by what he does AND the situation is very weighed against him. Thing is if he doesn't wake up at all, he has to eat pressure. My main point I'm trying to illustrate is that Manta might have some of the most oppressive midscreen oki in this game.

 

[Snibbor]

If you MB f3 and Batman reads it, he can parry it. Hell maybe he can even react to it offline, f3s are pretty slow, but point is Batman is one of the few chars that has a parry so he has a option against Mb f3/b3 aside from blocking and taking +frames. Also isn't 1232 not a HKD? If Batman tech rolls after a 1232 knockdown, do these options still work?

 

[Red Reaper]

@Chernyy Volk
I don't particularly like this because it's not a heavy knockdown.. But I am glad you're exploring oki. I tried to get something started to explore oki with my previous main, and I was the only one actually trying to figure it out (outside of the basic bait and punish or one fixed set up).

I'm going to try to gather some stuff to test, but I've had quite a bit of success stuffing Aquaman's wakeups after the air harpoon ender using a slight delay B2 or standing 2. You have to delay standing 2 a bit more because it's 1 frame slower but it worked. I don't remember if F2 worked, but if it does, that's good because it eliminates his ability to backdash out of there so he has to eat that pressure.

 

[Reauxbot]

If you MB f3 and Batman reads it, he can parry it. Hell maybe he can even react to it offline, f3s are pretty slow, but point is Batman is one of the few chars that has a parry so he has a option against Mb f3/b3 aside from blocking and taking +frames. Also isn't 1232 not a HKD? If Batman tech rolls after a 1232 knockdown, do these options still work?

You can tech roll it. And that's the bad part. If you're doing lasers and someone rolls back and see that long ass whiff. You're gonna eat combo. Unless you MB it.
So I have to gueee if they're gonna wakeup or tech roll.

 

[Darth Mao]

any video?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

You can tech roll it. And that's the bad part. If you're doing lasers and someone rolls back and see that long ass whiff. You're gonna eat combo. Unless you MB it.
So I have to gueee if they're gonna wakeup or tech roll.

The laser can't be punished. You're safe.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

@Chernyy Volk
I don't particularly like this because it's not a heavy knockdown.. But I am glad you're exploring oki. I tried to get something started to explore oki with my previous main, and I was the only one actually trying to figure it out (outside of the basic bait and punish or one fixed set up).

I'm going to try to gather some stuff to test, but I've had quite a bit of success stuffing Aquaman's wakeups after the air harpoon ender using a slight delay B2 or standing 2. You have to delay standing 2 a bit more because it's 1 frame slower but it worked. I don't remember if F2 worked, but if it does, that's good because it eliminates his ability to backdash out of there so he has to eat that pressure.

You can still catch backdashes with f21.

 

[Reauxbot]

So we don't have any guaranteed setups?

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So we don't have any guaranteed setups?

I think Manta is going to be a conditioning heavy character.

 

[Reauxbot]

I think Manta is going to be a conditioning heavy character.

That's what I was thinking too

 

[Red Reaper]

You can still catch backdashes with f21.

Not if they roll and then backdash..

So we don't have any guaranteed setups?

End in air harpoon and time your meaty. On Aquaman for example, you kan do a B2 meaty or very slight walk forward into standing 2. You kan also do F2, but you have to do the right kombos for that. For example, if you do B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3, you don't have enough knockdown advantage to get the F2, but if you drop one of the B11 strings, you have enough advantage to do it: B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3. Then it kovers both wake ups AND backdash...

I prefer this oki to the 1232 knockdown, especially since it's untechable.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Not if they roll and then backdash..


End in air harpoon and time your meaty. On Aquaman for example, you kan do a B2 meaty or very slight walk forward into standing 2. You kan also do F2, but you have to do the right kombos for that. For example, if you do B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3, you don't have enough knockdown advantage to get the F2, but if you drop one of the B11 strings, you have enough advantage to do it: B22~db2 MB, B3, J3, B11, B11U3~DB3. Then it kovers both wake ups AND backdash...

I prefer this oki to the 1232 knockdown, especially since it's untechable.

I've tested. It works on roll/backdash as well. Roll/backdash is pretty seeable, just gotta walk forward.

 

[ShadyHeart]

Can't you just tech roll and avoid the setup completely every time?