Balance Patch Speculation

[james1926]

lab him and you will see that all his pressure is fake

you can fuzzy his f22 f2d4 and his only tick throws are d1 and d3

for his other variation you can poke out of all his stance moves and full combo him
db2 is slow af
his bf2 has a slow startup before the move get active so you can poke him on reaction
jax is the most overated character on this forum and even by some pros have you seen any pro doing actualy well with jax againts another pro who know the match up ?

I dont know man, the reasons you stated dont seem enough for jax to be considered as low as you stated. He has a lot of options and solid damage. I didnt see any high level jax but reo placed him just after the tops in his tier list.

I guess we will see soon if hes overrated.

 

[mrapchem]

F2 is -6 on block. It needs to be punishable on block. Same with B3. All other changes are fine as well, as long as the character isn't going to be turned useless.

B3 and F2 don't need any changes at all this early in the game's life; Sub's only issue is the looping 50/50 shenanigans.

 

[t3kwytch3r]

Definitely think EB's F4 needs a slight nerf. I'm usually decent at blocking most mixups on reaction, but his slide or F4 both start so quickly and look so similar that it's basically luck if i block it or not.

I don't mind Scorpion amplifying his TP on block, but reduce the window of time he has to do it. It feels like if you properly wait the max time before attempting to punish he becomes safe and you return to super close neutral. Not sure what the frames are now but i'd guess 1/2 -2/3s the current time should be good.

D'vorah needs some MINOR buffs. Just a couple frames here and there to make her more viable.

Not certain about anything else tbh. The game is quite good as it is except for some characters KBs.

 

[Inzzane_79]

-General fixes to hitboxes and adjustments to krushing blow requirements (Johnny, Noob etc. the chars that barely ever see one of their KBs).

-Some fix to Fatal Blows (Maybe make them only usable in a combo aka have to be cancelled into; make em dissappear on whiff and block not only on hit or make it so you can´t use it again in that round but it´s availabe the next if there is a next round)

-Char buffs/nerfs: None yet! Game is still too young to really say "ok this is broken shit, nerf; or this is unvaible, buff"

Just my opinion

 

[GLoRToR]

B3 and F2 don't need any changes at all this early in the game's life; Sub's only issue is the looping 50/50 shenanigans.

No, the issue is that he has a safe mixup that's also looping.
No safe mixups. The opponent takes a risk for guessing, so the attacker should be taking the same risk for being guessed right. It doesn't matter how early on in the game's life there is a broken high reward low risk mechanic that literally turns a character into a fucking retarded piece of shit that any moron can win with by randomly alternating between two buttons.
I understand that you're new around here and you don't understand the implications of this.
Just trust me that it needs to be unsafe.
Safe mixups were one of the leading reasons why MKX was a trash game.

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

Nerf:
Sonya Damage
Erron Slide or f4, not both but one or the other
Sub-Zero Vortex 50/50. It’s a bit strong and they said they wanted to weaken 50/50 and make a neutral heavy game, sub doesn’t do that right now.

Rework:
Geras: dude is flat broken and I don’t know what you do to fix it without blowing him up.

Buff:
Jade-slight damage buff.
D’Vorah-Hit box fixes

QoL:
Just change Jacqui f2 to the shoryuken. The standalone f2 does nothing. It also isn’t used in max combos. I’d like it to function like Sindel b2 from mk9.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Fatal Blow:

When you press X while a Fatal Blow is performed on you , there´s a Shield Symbol that can negate some Dmg from the FatalBlow, 3 % i think in total.
Why not make it tighter to hit but it can go up to 50% of the FatalBlow Dmg, like a Quick Time Event or something?

The Bonus Dmg for the Fatal Blow executor should be removed.

 

[mrapchem]

No, the issue is that he has a safe mixup that's also looping.
No safe mixups. The opponent takes a risk for guessing, so the attacker should be taking the same risk for being guessed right. It doesn't matter how early on in the game's life there is a broken high reward low risk mechanic that literally turns a character into a fucking (soap bar in my mouth) piece of shit that any moron can win with by randomly alternating between two buttons.
I understand that you're new around here and you don't understand the implications of this.
Just trust me that it needs to be unsafe.
Safe mixups were one of the leading reasons why MKX was a trash game.

Sub-Zero does not have a safe 50/50 mix-up; one option is fully combo-punishable, while the other is not. That other option doesn't need to be a full combo punish, unless it proves to be too powerful after the game has been given time to breathe and players have all but optimized all of the cast. That has not even begun to happen yet, so we need to avoid any knee-jerk character balance patches. D'Vorah players know precisely what I mean.

There is nothing inherently broken about 50/50s themselves; they occur all the time in fighting games whether it's overhead/low, strike/throw, wakeup attack/delay, wakeup attack/roll. There are always going to be guesses that a defender will have to make. 50/50s become 'broken' when they are far too easily accessed by the attacker, both options are safe or can be made safe, both lead to devastating damage or they loop into themselves. Sub-Zero's 50/50 exhibits only the last characteristic, so it should be removed, while everything else remains the same.

Also, I am by no means new to TYM or to fighting games - I've been visiting this site religiously since MK9 days and beyond, from back when the Terry Brothers used to make threads on a regular basis. I've only decided to make a profile and speak now that MK11 is out. Based on what you stated, it sounds like you simply don't want to make any guesses when fighting someone, especially between overhead and low. This is an untenable position - there will always be a character that will force a guess between high and low in one way or another, no matter what game you play. Therefore, somebody is always theoretically able to beat you by alternating between two buttons.

Your job is to learn the differences between the buttons.

 

[JTC]

No more tournament variations, fuck that shit. Let us use customs, their whole dam game is designed around it.

 

[kcd117]

I’d like to see the following + hitbox fixes:

Geras:

Sand trap is now a mid.
KB on sand trab dmg reduction.
F212 string now -7.
F22 now -20.
KB on F22 dmg reduction.
KB on F11+34 dmg reduction.
Removes the option to cancel into BF1 from normals.
D1 is now 7 frames startup and -6.

Erron:

F4 now -12 and amplified -15.
B222 now mid mid overhead.
B222 now -20 on block.
Amplified Slide hit advantage reduced to 5.
21212 string no -22 on block.
Reduced hitbox on jump kicks.
D4 now -10 on block.
D1 now 7 frames and -7 on block.

Sub-Zero:

Removed the option to cancel F2 into special.
Slide travels slower.
Reduced range on B3.
Adds 10 frames to the startup of regular and amplified iceball.
Increases hit advantage on his strinrgs to make sure iceballl still combos from everything it does now.

Sonya:

B13 is now a mid mid.
Amplified rings are now high high.
D3 is now -10 on block.
Increased dmg scaling on everything.

Scorpion:

Removes the option to amplify teleport on block.
Reduced hitbox on jump kicks.
All his strigs back to beta frame data, except for F34.

Liu Kang:

F4 startup increased to 13 frames.
Reduced hitbox on both fireballs.

Kano:

B3 now 12 frames.
D1 hit adv increased to 12.
F4 now 20 frames.
112 leaves you closer on block.
F11 now high mid.
F11 now -5.
Kung Lao:

Increased hitbox on spin so it consistently hits after f1 against everyone.
21 jails if 2 is blocked.

Kotal Kahn:

B3 now ticks but in an honest way lol.
F1 is now a mid.
Reduced distance traveled on F122 string.

Jade:

Increased range on S1 and S2 so she can punish stuff.
Adds the option to amplify BF2 to get an extension.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Removes the option to cancel into BF1 from normals.

So you want Geras only to be able to use it raw? His zero range, slow, unsafe on block move?

This change also kills New Era as a viable variation.

Salty choices are not smart choices.

 

[squawkdog]

The game has been out for 2 weeks...

 

[GLoRToR]

Scorpion:

Removes the option to amplify teleport on block.

Rather, only be able to amplify on hit to extend for a combo. Whiffing and being able to amplify is also bad because he literally gets a free full screen punish on EVERYTHING for one bar of meter. Amplifying it on block is whatever, you can block and punish that. The problem is with the cancel AND that the amplify is a free fullscreen evasive launcher.
I'd also make Teleport itself a high. The move itself is immensely destructive to game balance currently when NRS themselves said they wanted a slower paced, more level playing field.

Jade:

Increased range on S1 and S2 so she can punish stuff.
Adds the option to amplify BF2 to get an extension.

While the increased range would obviously benefit her, because more range is always good, she does not need that.
What she needs, among some changes to her frame data, is for bf2 to be safe on block and a proper launch into a combo because currently, all she has is f2 which is i28. Amplifying bf2 would also be nice but not necessary.

 

[GLoRToR]

Sub-Zero does not have a safe 50/50 mix-up; one option is fully combo-punishable, while the other is not.

Both F2 and B3 are -6 on block.
You need to lab stuff and need to stop worrying about

knee-jerk character balance patches.

The next patch is not for another month at the very least but rather, my money is on after Evo.
Feel free to disagree with me about what Sub needs but please don't lecture me. The tone of this conversation is going in the wrong direction.
I apologise if I sounded hostile at any point, let's not go that way.

I don't want Sub to be shit-tier. (Or any character, for that matter. I want all of them to be good but some of the current moves are beyond dumb.)

I also don't want safe 50/50's, one-button bullshit and dumb mashable nonsense in the game like Scorpion's teleport.

 

[The Gabriel]

I’d like to see the following + hitbox fixes:

Geras:

Sand trap is now a mid.
KB on sand trab dmg reduction.
F212 string now -7.
F22 now -20.
KB on F22 dmg reduction.
KB on F11+34 dmg reduction.
Removes the option to cancel into BF1 from normals.
D1 is now 7 frames startup and -6.

Erron:

F4 now -12 and amplified -15.
B222 now mid mid overhead.
B222 now -20 on block.
Amplified Slide hit advantage reduced to 5.
21212 string no -22 on block.
Reduced hitbox on jump kicks.
D4 now -10 on block.
D1 now 7 frames and -7 on block.

Sub-Zero:

Removed the option to cancel F2 into special.
Slide travels slower.
Reduced range on B3.
Adds 10 frames to the startup of regular and amplified iceball.
Increases hit advantage on his strinrgs to make sure iceballl still combos from everything it does now.

Sonya:

B13 is now a mid mid.
Amplified rings are now high high.
D3 is now -10 on block.
Increased dmg scaling on everything.

Scorpion:

Removes the option to amplify teleport on block.
Reduced hitbox on jump kicks.
All his strigs back to beta frame data, except for F34.

Liu Kang:

F4 startup increased to 13 frames.
Reduced hitbox on both fireballs.

Kano:

B3 now 12 frames.
D1 hit adv increased to 12.
F4 now 20 frames.
112 leaves you closer on block.
F11 now high mid.
F11 now -5.
Kung Lao:

Increased hitbox on spin so it consistently hits after f1 against everyone.
21 jails if 2 is blocked.

Kotal Kahn:

B3 now ticks but in an honest way lol.
F1 is now a mid.
Reduced distance traveled on F122 string.

Jade:

Increased range on S1 and S2 so she can punish stuff.
Adds the option to amplify BF2 to get an extension.

This is bad and you should feel bad.

 

[kcd117]

So you want Geras only to be able to use it raw? His zero range, slow, unsafe on block move?

This change also kills New Era as a viable variation.

Salty choices are not smart choices.

It was like that in the reveal build and it was pretty good. It was what limited his dmg to 25%ish midscreen and 40%ish corner. The main problem with geras is that he does too much dmg for small hits, I think these changes would adress that. He’d go from a 2 touch kill to 3-4 on conversions and from 3 KBs to kill to 4.

On the matter of variations, I think new era is pretty good, but if you are worried about how they gonna turn out, try putting his sand clone in the lab for a day and see some of what we are gonna be dealing with once it gets put in one of his competitive loadout.

I think dmg wise this is the best nerf he can get without hurting other aspects or having no impact at all on how strong he is.

This is bad and you should feel bad.

Care to elaborate?

 

[trufenix]

The game has been out for 2 weeks...

It's too late, look at this thread. The game is unplayable.

 

[mrapchem]

Both F2 and B3 are -6 on block.
You need to lab stuff and need to stop worrying about



The next patch is not for another month at the very least but rather, my money is on after Evo.
Feel free to disagree with me about what Sub needs but please don't lecture me. The tone of this conversation is going in the wrong direction.
I apologise if I sounded hostile at any point, let's not go that way.

I don't want Sub to be shit-tier. (Or any character, for that matter. I want all of them to be good but some of the current moves are beyond dumb.)

I also don't want safe 50/50's, one-button bullshit and dumb mashable nonsense in the game like Scorpion's teleport.

Sub-Zero players aren't doing B3 and F2 by themselves. They are doing B32 into IceBall or completing the string, which is safe. And they are either doing F2 into Ex-IceBall or F24, both of which are horribly unsafe on block. His 50/50 mix up is not safe; the individual low/overhead normal themselves might be safe, but not the strings or special moves that they cancel into.

Also, here's a tip from a Sub-Zero player: if the Sub-Zero is standing just outside of sweep distance, and you suspect that they will do a 50/50, block high. The overhead has more range than the low has, so they are most likely going for the overhead.

If you don't want me to lecture or for the tone of the conversation to go left, then perhaps you should avoid making presumptuous statements, such as "I know you're new around here..." or "You need to lab stuff". Those kinds of statements drastically shift the nature of a discussion into that of an argument because they are accusatory in nature.

However, since you apologized, I accept your apology and renounce any hard feelings.

I simply don't want any character to be overly adjusted because the perception of their strength didn't match their reality, especially in the game's infancy stages. The game is 2 weeks old; we haven't even begun to dig into all the mechanics that the game possesses or optimize all of our characters' options. We as a kommunity don't need to be requesting any kind of drastic changes until then.

 

[deathstroke187]

This game simply doesn't need balance changes yet and this cycle of asking for them so early is annoying. Do you know what is one of the coolest things about fighting games? When somebody is so good with a character that they have this situational awareness during a bad matchup, and win regardless of whatever some top player's shit tier list says. We don't see this level of knowledge right now because the game is two weeks old, which means gimmicks still work, characters are still being figured out, there are new mechanics to master, and this is all in a game that isn't legacy with multiple variations. Nobody should be surprised that some characters are stronger than others this early, it's inevitable but will get better with time. It won't get better with kneejerk reactions and nerfs, that will only stunt the growth of the game. There will be a time for refinement later.

yeah but there are some characters that are completly useless right now and some that arent playing mk11. You say that but NRS already nerfed some characters to shit with that day 1 patch.
That said the game is way more balanced than mk9,inj,mkx,inj2 on release.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

To be honest it's pretty ironic because what I just posted was somewhat of a kneejerk reaction to people crying for nerfs. It's still too early to touch anything in my opinion. Far too soon to have a decent picture of the entire roster, the results of rebalancing are too unpredictable. Even more so with these custom variation moves that aren't being used competitively right now.

which they SHOULD BE!

 

[Tony at Home]

I'd love a patch that gives every character 2 more tournament variations. That alone would help a ton of characters without any sort of nerfs or buffs.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

I'd love a patch that gives every character 2 more tournament variations. That alone would help a ton of characters without any sort of nerfs or buffs.

or just custom moves?

 

[Tony at Home]

or just custom moves?

I don't think this is going to happen. Not for quite a while at least. A ton of move of moves seem designed only for the reality that you HAVE to use X move if you want Y move.

Like Kabal's straight air blade toss, Kitana's fan dance, etc. These just aren't moves that would exist in the game if that weren't the intent behind it.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

I don’t have an issue with Sonya’s damage.

 

[projectzero00]

This entire thread:

SHOULD BUFF: My character(s), anyone I like, anyone I win with

SHOULD NERF: Your characters(s), anyone I don't like, anyone I lose to

REASONS WHY: Because I'm always right, and because you're always wrong

The hypocrisy is real. This thread is obviously filled with some really good points and people who main ridiculously strong characters are like "Ehm no guys the game is pretty balanced". And tell me you don't main Scorpion...