General/Other Ares Buffs thread - Balanced & Practical Changes

[The Gabriel]

I think we should get our ideas out there, just in case anyone is watching/listening, as a month in we now have more hardcore experience with Ares than NRS does.

Here are my initial suggestions:

Increase backdash speed and/or range - Ares' backdash is terrible, maybe the worst in the game, making it so he has zero options against many characters' frame trap-like chains (superman's f23 springs to mind) or doomsday supernova mixups (GOOD doomsdays).

Less startup on teleport - Teleport is a powerful special that deserves to be punished if used incorrectly/stupidly. That's why it should have a decent amount of recovery, which it currently does. The problem is that it's start-up is so slow that it's almost useless at high-level play because you can't use it on reaction to practically ANYTHING. You can't even teleport after blocking certain well-timed projectiles during a projectile war.

Wakeup attack - Ares needs some tuning on his godsmack wakeup to make it not completely useless

Trait - Implement *one* of these three changes: weapon doesn't disappear when he is hit, weapon damage increased slightly, weapon cool down period decreased slightly (also what if weapon cool-down time depended on whether the weapon got a hit or not? ie Your sword recovers fastest if it gets a clean hit, slower if it gets blocked, and slowest if it whiffs)

Teleport - This is my most radical suggestion and could be a substitute to Ares terrible backdash. As is, the "forward" teleport is basically useless, so what about changing it to a defensive teleport, ie you teleport backwards from your position, away from the opponent. This would be more in line with him being a slow character with a bunch of tricks, versus giving him a faster back dash.

 

[salvificblood]

Teleport - This is my most radical suggestion and could be a substitute to Ares terrible backdash. As is, the "forward" teleport is basically useless, so what about changing it to a defensive teleport, ie you teleport backwards from your position, away from the opponent. This would be more in line with him being a slow character with a bunch of tricks, versus giving him a faster back dash.

Wtf.

 

[The Gabriel]

Wtf.

I did say it was radical.

 

[salvificblood]

I did say it was radical.

 

[Rottenmilk]

Take away his resets, and this is agreeable.

 

[Hellbringer]

I dont think he really needs buffs. I don't really agree with those tierlists for Ares placing anyway.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Fix Ares' trait when he's got the opponent in the corner. Ever notice how far his Sword appears from him almost off screen? It's very infuriating when I go for a launch only to have the sword whiff and get punished for it.
Juggs Chaosphere Other Ares players, Anything like this happen to you yet?

 

[Astrocytic]

I agree with everything except the backwards teleport.

That would be too much.

For his trait: How about it recovers faster from a whiff/block and no changes in hit recovery? That would be more viable.

His teleport should be that of Raidens.

His reset is up to the community. I don't really mind. But will all the other tools the rest of the roster has, it wouldn't hurt for him to keep it.

 

[Juggs]

Teleport: Reduce both the start-up and recovery frames by 5 frames. So the start-up is 15 frames, and the recovery is 14 frames.
Reasoning: As of right now, there's very few projectiles you can teleport on reaction to. Raw teleport should be punishable, but it should not be virtually useless outside of punishing projectiles. I also wouldn't mind buffing one or the other, such as making the start-up frames less, but leaving the recovery frames untouched.

Wake-up Godsmack: Increase invinicibility frames by 2-3. This isn't an outrageous request, as of right now, Godsmack and MB Godsmack are Ares' ONLY wake-up option. Buffing it slightly to be more effective would be helpful.

Trait: There's several options you could do to slightly buff his trait. You can increase the damage of a raw Axe to 20%, and a raw Sword to 13%. By "raw" I mean not in a combo, the main reason the damage for this should be better, is because if he's hit while using trait, it disappears, making it really hard to even land the trait outside of a combo. If this isn't possible, a universal damage buff to trait isn't too overpowered. If buffing the damage is out of the question, you could make it to where the trait doesn't disappear if Ares is hit. The last option, is simply decreasing the recovery time in which Ares can use the trait again.

Anti-Air: Ares currently has no reliable anti-air. His d2 has slow start-up, and the hitbox isn't particularly big. I wouldn't mind simply a d2 buff, but anything would suffice.

colt hecterrific

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

How about projectile invulnerability on his teleport startup instead of touching the startup frames.

And Raiden's teleport had 19 frames of recovery too so I definitely wouldn't mess with that.

 

[4x4lo8o]

And Raiden's teleport had 19 frames of recovery too so I definitely wouldn't mess with that.

But in MK9 it took 5 frames to turn around which isn't something that appears to be the case in this game, plus Raiden's teleport was only 10 frames of animation in the front so they had less time to react before the punish. Plus his teleport was impossible to stuff on start up with its 1 frame execution so it didn't make sense to have it safe on both sides.

You can't really compare frame data between games like that anyway. Many more characters have 6 frame combo starters than did in MK and in general what's considered fast/slow isn't necessarily equivilent

Wake-up Godsmack: Increase invinicibility frames by 2-3. This isn't an outrageous request, as of right now, Godsmack and MB Godsmack are Ares' ONLY wake-up option. Buffing it slightly to be more effective would be helpful.

I think wake up teleport is an option. It appears to have some invincibility and frequently gets me out of command grabs and pressure, especially in the corner. The wake up invincibiliy frames don't last the entire start up and it can be baited, but it's definitely an option in some situations

 

[Cye9]

Honestly Ares biggest and most glaring problems are his recovery/startup frame speed and his range. The disappearing trait is annoying and all that but yeah, buff his teleport and make more of his stuff safe and he's a decent character. As it stands his d1 range is awful and he apparently has T-rex arms so his range is pretty bad, which is compounded by his problems with trait. If they buffed his overall speed/recovery and gave him a little more range he'd be alright.

 

[4x4lo8o]

So when people keep suggesting his trait be buffed so it doesn't go away when he gets hit... you're just thinking about while using 4/b4 during projectile trades where Ares gets hit and his Axe disappears so you can't even trade, right?

Because if his trait couldn't get stuffed at all that'd be so broken. You wouldn't be able to poke out of d1~d4 on block. They'd never be able to counter poke at all if you have trait because they can get blown up. He'd also get mix ups at the end of every block string that would have to be blocked. You can fuzzy guard them all, but it'd be hell. d4 and dd4 are both low launchers, u4 is a frame trap on block and standing reset on hit, and uu4 gives a hard knock down(usually right in cross up range). You'd be able to link any of them at the end of most of your block strings and most of the time it'd be inescapable except for blocking, and they're all safe on block. Mix trait dash cancel in there and you'd have some broken shit.

 

[Juggs]

So when people keep suggesting his trait be buffed so it doesn't go away when he gets hit... you're just thinking about while using 4/b4 during projectile trades where Ares gets hit and his Axe disappears so you can't even trade, right?

Because if his trait couldn't get stuffed at all that'd be so broken. You wouldn't be able to poke out of d1~d4 on block. They'd never be able to counter poke at all if you have trait because they can get blown up. He'd also get mix ups at the end of every block string that would have to be blocked. You can fuzzy guard them all, but it'd be hell. d4 and dd4 are both low launchers, u4 is a frame trap on block and standing reset on hit, and uu4 gives a hard knock down(usually right in cross up range). You'd be able to link any of them at the end of most of your block strings and most of the time it'd be inescapable except for blocking, and they're all safe on block. Mix trait dash cancel in there and you'd have some broken shit.

He needs it.

 

[4x4lo8o]

He needs it.

He might need something, but he doesn't need that

 

[The Gabriel]

So when people keep suggesting his trait be buffed so it doesn't go away when he gets hit... you're just thinking about while using 4/b4 during projectile trades where Ares gets hit and his Axe disappears so you can't even trade, right?

Because if his trait couldn't get stuffed at all that'd be so broken. You wouldn't be able to poke out of d1~d4 on block. They'd never be able to counter poke at all if you have trait because they can get blown up. He'd also get mix ups at the end of every block string that would have to be blocked. You can fuzzy guard them all, but it'd be hell. d4 and dd4 are both low launchers, u4 is a frame trap on block and standing reset on hit, and uu4 gives a hard knock down(usually right in cross up range). You'd be able to link any of them at the end of most of your block strings and most of the time it'd be inescapable except for blocking, and they're all safe on block. Mix trait dash cancel in there and you'd have some broken shit.

Perhaps then they make a start-up window where the weapon will still disappear if Ares gets hit during that time

 

[Juggs]

He might need something, but he doesn't need that

But seriously, I was talking about raw trait and the b4 version, so projectile version. It's useless outside of on knockdowns or to catch jumping opponents. At least the axe, since it's so slow, the sword is fast so you don't get hit out of it, at the same time the sword projectile only does 9% and has a tiny hit box.

 

[4x4lo8o]

But seriously, I was talking about raw trait and the b4 version, so projectile version. It's useless outside of on knockdowns or to catch jumping opponents. At least the axe, since it's so slow, the sword is fast so you don't get hit out of it, at the same time the sword projectile only does 9% and has a tiny hit box.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think.
Axe does 15%, hits mid as well as covering most of the air, does good chip, and gives a knockdown. It's a little bit strong for a projectile trade. On the other hand it's slow, you can only use it every 8 seconds(or something. Anyone know the exact cooldown time on trait?), and it's really frustrating when it disappears pixels away from the opponent after travelling full screen. I just wanted to clarify(because I've seen this mentioned by a bunch of people in multiple threads) that there's a reason Ares' trait can get stuffed and that what people mostly want is to be able to projectile trade with straight sword/axe


If something does get buffed I think it should probably be something smaller than adjusting his trait. I would probably say take a couple frames off his teleport, buff his back dash a bit, or slightly adjust the invincibility on one of his wake ups.

 

[The Gabriel]

Yeah, I agree with that. I think.
Axe does 15%, hits mid as well as covering most of the air, does good chip, and gives a knockdown. It's a little bit strong for a projectile trade. On the other hand it's slow, you can only use it every 8 seconds(or something. Anyone know the exact cooldown time on trait?), and it's really frustrating when it disappears pixels away from the opponent after travelling full screen. I just wanted to clarify(because I've seen this mentioned by a bunch of people in multiple threads) that there's a reason Ares' trait can get stuffed and that what people mostly want is to be able to projectile trade with straight sword/axe


If something does get buffed I think it should probably be something smaller than adjusting his trait. I would probably say take a couple frames off his teleport, buff his back dash a bit, or slightly adjust the invincibility on one of his wake ups.

Axe is also highly negative on block or whiff

and Ares needs all 3 of the things you listed in order to compete

 

[4x4lo8o]

Axe is also highly negative on block or whiff

and Ares needs all 3 of the things you listed in order to compete

Axe is only negative on block from point blank, and even then it's a difficult punish. Don't forget that Axe is usually multihit, which means the frame data is wrong. If they block on Axe from midscreen it's usually positive. Most projectiles are punishable point blank, so the recovery on block isn't an issue.
On whiff it's pretty bad, but it's also hard to impossible to make Axe whiff depending on the character

 

[RYX]

All I want is a better back dash(nobody's should be this bad) and for trait weapons to not go poof when I get hit.

 

[Astrocytic]

Teleport: Reduce both the start-up and recovery frames by 5 frames. So the start-up is 15 frames, and the recovery is 14 frames.
Reasoning: As of right now, there's very few projectiles you can teleport on reaction to. Raw teleport should be punishable, but it should not be virtually useless outside of punishing projectiles. I also wouldn't mind buffing one or the other, such as making the start-up frames less, but leaving the recovery frames untouched.

Wake-up Godsmack: Increase invinicibility frames by 2-3. This isn't an outrageous request, as of right now, Godsmack and MB Godsmack are Ares' ONLY wake-up option. Buffing it slightly to be more effective would be helpful.

Trait: There's several options you could do to slightly buff his trait. You can increase the damage of a raw Axe to 20%, and a raw Sword to 13%. By "raw" I mean not in a combo, the main reason the damage for this should be better, is because if he's hit while using trait, it disappears, making it really hard to even land the trait outside of a combo. If this isn't possible, a universal damage buff to trait isn't too overpowered. If buffing the damage is out of the question, you could make it to where the trait doesn't disappear if Ares is hit. The last option, is simply decreasing the recovery time in which Ares can use the trait again.

Anti-Air: Ares currently has no reliable anti-air. His d2 has slow start-up, and the hitbox isn't particularly big. I wouldn't mind simply a d2 buff, but anything would suffice.

colt hecterrific

Reviving this.

His new teleport should be more viable not only as a wake up option.

NRS, please reconsider buffing Ares.

 

[cHAncEman1292]

Ares is my main - I find him very effective once you the ball rolling.

While I personally don't think the teleport NEEDS to be buffed it would be useful if that was the case. I however would suggest something different - I'll get to that in a moment. People keep comparing him to Raiden...he's not Raiden, just no, he's not. Raiden didn't have anywhere near the zoning capabilities that Ares has. Ares is a zoning character with the OPTION of getting in for some extra punishing - OPTION. Plus he also has his God Smack for mobility so I thing the Tele-Godsmack combo, when utilized correctly is actually VERY effective. So enough with people saying that he needs Raiden's tele because that's a teleport meant for an entirely different playstyle.

What I would ask is for Ares's teleport to place him a bit farther from the opponent - just out of most characters pokingrange. Ares's main advantage up close is his advancing/ranged normals, give him a teleport that takes this into consideration and I think he'd be golden.

 

[The Gabriel]

Ares is my main - I find him very effective once you the ball rolling.

While I personally don't think the teleport NEEDS to be buffed it would be useful if that was the case. I however would suggest something different - I'll get to that in a moment. People keep comparing him to Raiden...he's not Raiden, just no, he's not. Raiden didn't have anywhere near the zoning capabilities that Ares has. Ares is a zoning character with the OPTION of getting in for some extra punishing - OPTION. Plus he also has his God Smack for mobility so I thing the Tele-Godsmack combo, when utilized correctly is actually VERY effective. So enough with people saying that he needs Raiden's tele because that's a teleport meant for an entirely different playstyle.

What I would ask is for Ares's teleport to place him a bit farther from the opponent - just out of most characters pokingrange. Ares's main advantage up close is his advancing/ranged normals, give him a teleport that takes this into consideration and I think he'd be golden.

The problem is that Ares already has trouble punishing after the teleport because the start-up is so slow it wastes all of the opponent's recovery time when their move whiffs due to teleport. Putting Ares further away where his d1 won't connect will just mean the teleport won't be able to punish *anything*.

On wake-up when you're just trying to get away you would want something like this to create more space...that's why I suggested the defensive teleport that moves you backwards, since the "appear in front of opponent" teleport is 100% useless.

 

[cHAncEman1292]

The problem is that Ares already has trouble punishing after the teleport because the start-up is so slow it wastes all of the opponent's recovery time when their move whiffs due to teleport. Putting Ares further away where his d1 won't connect will just mean the teleport won't be able to punish *anything*.

On wake-up when you're just trying to get away you would want something like this to create more space...that's why I suggested the defensive teleport that moves you backwards, since the "appear in front of opponent" teleport is 100% useless.

Perhaps my post was a little unclear. Putting Ares in his optimal combat range up close is an advantage that he doesn't have right now. He basically- as of now- comes out of teleport breathing on your opponents neck. By him coming out of teleport a bit further back it gives him a cushion. Yea you wouldn't have a God-like teleport that would guarantee you a combo off a read all the time but you have the option to change the tide of battle and put Ares in his optimal close quarters range. I'm merely suggesting giving Ares more breathing room and giving him the option to change gears from zoning to brawler more fluently.

Its kind of obvious to see that Ares's teleport is more of a toll to get him into the fray than a purely punishing tool. Ares is interesting, I just don't want to see an alteration to his moveset that would ruin his unique playstyle.