Breakthrough - Dragons Fire a lesson to be learnt in frame data lol

[st9rm]

i think @Eddy Wang did quite a good tutorial, on how to read and calculate framedata
not sure if it covers everything though

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

i think @Eddy Wang did quite a good tutorial, on how to read and calculate framedata
not sure if it covers everything though

Do you have the link? I want to understand this properly

 

[st9rm]

Do you have the link? I want to understand this properly

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Ty

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

This was made April 11th it's changed since then. I know how frame data works in mk9 but just not sure on the difference in mkx. :,( I'll re read this thread over until I get it

 

[ZeroEffect]

Once again... "if only everyone had 6 and 7 frame low pokes..."
I feel like this is what people will be saying once this game is over and Inj2/MK11 hits the shelves. Among other things anyway.

Does the idea that a just-frame counterpoke slower than 7 frames, at best, trades, mean nothing? I respect labbing things as much as anybody, (props to @xarakamaka for this info), but the characters who didn't have a reliable or safe way out before still don't have one now.

Tom Brady might be wrong about the frames in his vids, but he did bring up a very important point that many disregarded. People really don't know how effective their own character's shit is until they fight against it themselves. This is regardless of tier. Imo, something about this kind of offense should be fixed. I don't know what the best solution would be that wouldn't destroy Liu kang or others like him, but as it is, it's just flawed design.

For real though, can we leave the "whining vs lol imma real man" shit out of threads like this and just be realistic?

 

[Mr_Swizzer]

After the patches & tweaks they added 1 more frame to everything and if it says 9 on the move list it means 10 because they didn't update the numerical value in the move list.

So your just confirming it's 10 frames in a way lol

 

[Dankster Morgan]

This thread helped so much with me understanding frame date, and the value of a fast reversal and how it is a actually better than a fast normal for punishing. Especially reversals that launch like ex spin and stuff like that.

 

[IrishMantis]

After the patches & tweaks they added 1 more frame to everything and if it says 9 on the move list it means 10 because they didn't update the numerical value in the move list.

So your just confirming it's 10 frames in a way lol

no it's still 9 frames

It's after the block it takes an extra frame to leave block stun

But start up of the move is 9 frames
If you counted the framed of the start up there would be 9 frames

Here's how to look at it if they blocked a move that is 0 on block and you both did a 9 frame normal you would win because it took them an extra frame to recover from block stun, but if they did a 9 frame reversal (special) it would trade since reversals activate a frame earlier(or the frame of their start up)

 

[BillStickers]

Yeh it was me that found this tech , it is plus 4 or 5 yeh . But u can't do that loop you said in previous post , u don't have the stamina in time . It will beep beep you

@GGA Dizzy thanks for your help I'm a little unclear on a couple things though but too tired at the moment . Do you think you could ever make a thread about the frame data ? Etc . I know probably 80% of the community doesn't know what's going on still. I think it would clear and REALLY help the community of you could ever find time for this. Do you think you could do it? I'll message more on Wednesday when I'm not working, thanks dude

Dude @Tom Brady made a thread on this like a million years ago. C'mon son.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/mkx-system-guide.49846/

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Dude @Tom Brady made a thread on this like a million years ago. C'mon son.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/mkx-system-guide.49846/

Coming out of Block with Normal Attacks - It takes at least one frame to come out of block with a normal attack. This means that even if you input an 8 frame normal on the first frame out of block, the attack will actually come out in 9 frames

So if I do s1 into b1 then why can't it beat Kung Laos spin? I'm not blocking so my 9 frame move shouldn't become a 10 frame move. The spin is a reversal so it doesn't become 6 frames it is still 7 frames .

 

[IrishMantis]

Coming out of Block with Normal Attacks - It takes at least one frame to come out of block with a normal attack. This means that even if you input an 8 frame normal on the first frame out of block, the attack will actually come out in 9 frames

So if I do s1 into b1 then why can't it beat Kung Laos spin? I'm not blocking so my 9 frame move shouldn't become a 10 frame move. The spin is a reversal so it doesn't become 6 frames it is still 7 frames .

I assume this was replied to me

if lets say s1 is +2 on block and then then do a 9frame normal on frame perfect you both should trade in theory

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

I assume this was replied to me

if lets say s1 is +2 on block and then then do a 9frame normal on frame perfect you both should trade in theory

But it doesn't , that's what I'm saying. This is why it's confusing

 

[aieches]

didn't Tom make a thread that bridle went over reversal frame data . like mkx basics or something . I could have sworn that's where I got the info on the extra frame to add to normals

 

[IrishMantis]

But it doesn't , that's what I'm saying. This is why it's confusing

I think it's Lao's spin because it beats out highs and mids when it's active like a parry try a different move without armour

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Can someone give more confirmation on this please

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

This is not backed up by frame data or any examples I've found. I've looked into this extensively.



That is the problem with your test; normals and specials are different when reversals are involved. Spin is 7 frames, when is done as a reversal it hits in 7 frames. However a 7 frame d1 will hit on frame 8. If spin is not trading that does not mean anything. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun as a system mechanic of the game.

Of course Liu Kang's b1 hits on frame 10, it has 9 frames of startup then it's active frames begin. Just like Kung Jin's 7f startup D1 hits on frame 8. That is how the frame data is listed for this game. It's the old-school style of frame data, where startup is listed seperately from the first active frame. (This is different than @Somberness MK9 frame data for example)

I forgot about this

 

[AK Harold]

This thread is a great example of what should be going through everyone's head when they lab. Most players do not even put half the thought into testing their proof of concepts here. Half the chumps around here spout stuff and when proven wrong they just say "oh really? I didn't know that" and move on because they speak before they lab.

This thread should be stickied if anything. @xarakamaka you are a great LK player don't let all the forum trolls bog you down it just comes with the territory. At least you put in some work even though the conclusion you came to was debunked. To the majority in here. . . what you should really be thinking is "why was xarakamaka testing this to begin with?"

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

This thread is a great example of what should be going through everyone's head when they lab. Most players do not even put half the thought into testing their proof of concepts here. Half the chumps around here spout stuff and when proven wrong they just say "oh really? I didn't know that" and move on because they speak before they lab.

This thread should be stickied if anything. @xarakamaka you are a great LK player don't let all the forum trolls bog you down it just comes with the territory. At least you put in some work even though the conclusion you came to was debunked. To the majority in here. . . what you should really be thinking is "why was xarakamaka testing this to begin with?"

Thanks bro

 

[Rip Torn]

I think it's Lao's spin because it beats out highs and mids when it's active like a parry try a different move without armour

It's not really like a parry but it many cases it has to do with hurtboxes vs. hitboxes. One misconception I keep seeing is that a 7 frame move will always beat an 8 frame move no matter what. This is definitely not the case! There are other factors, such as distance and hurtboxes. For example, Mileena's 8f roll will beat out Liu Kang's b1 in a situation where she is -2 because the startup animation causes her hurtbox to not collide with Liu's b1 hitbox. In other words, she low profiles the attack. The frame data says it shouldn't work, but the hitbox and hurtbox interactions say it should.

It wouldn't surprise me if Kung Lao's hurtbox was slightly inside of his hitbox during spin because it's nearly impossible to trade with that move, especially with a normal and no weapon or some other projectile or aura type attack that extends your hitbox past your hurtbox.

Pushback (distance) is another factor not always being considered. If an attack has 7 startup frames and has 3 active frames, it doesn't always connect on the 8th frame. Depending on the distance and location of your opponents hurtbox, it could connect on the 8th, 9th, or 10th frame. This is where the idea of meaty attacks and travelling frames come into play and how they can affect how + or - a move is. It can also affect weather a move is safe, or how + or - a projectile is after certain strings.

 

[Walter Fudgens]

Can someone give more confirmation on this please

The problem that some people are having with MKX's frame data is that a lot of people are used to how Somberness listed frame data in MK9 where a 9 frame move became active on frame 9. Whereas in MKX a move having 9 frames of start up means that it becomes active on frame 10.

Edited to remove incorrect information. I apologize.

 

[THTB]

I noticed that right beneath this post you quoted @GGA Dizzy's post where he explained the part you were missing, but I'm reiterating it just in case you or anyone else is still confused.

The problem that some people are having with MKX's frame data is that a lot of people are used to how Somberness listed frame data in MK9 where a 9 frame move became active on frame 9. Whereas in MKX a move having 9 frames of start up means that it becomes active on frame 10.

An additional factor is that after blocking an attack, if you use a normal it will take 1 extra frame letting go of block before you can use that normal. So effectively, any normal done out of block stun has one additional frame before it becomes active in MKX. But, when you use a reversal special move the extra frame that it usually takes to let go of block is removed.

Also, if @xarakamaka or @Scott The Scot wouldn't mind, it could be helpful to edit your posts that are at the beginning of this thread with @GGA Dizzy 's quotes that explained how MKX frame data is different than how Somberness listed MK9 frame data for anyone who hasn't read the entire thread.

People are used to Somberness's way of doing it because that was the standard that developed. Not including the initial active frame in the startup on frame data is pretty pointless in reality, and since most people that gather frame data just include the initial active frame, most are thrown all the way off since that is how they learn to read startup. Not to mention, the 4/21 patch had this as one of the changes:

Movelist Frame Data – Many corrections and now includes frame 0 in the startup frames

Which led everyone to believe that they did indeed do that.

Pretty much...it's just coming down to NRS using an uncommon method of listing startup frames.

 

[Walter Fudgens]

People are used to Somberness's way of doing it because that was the standard that developed. Not including the initial active frame in the startup on frame data is pretty pointless in reality, and since most people that gather frame data just include the initial active frame, most are thrown all the way off since that is how they learn to read startup. Not to mention, the 4/21 patch had this as one of the changes:



Which led everyone to believe that they did indeed do that.

Pretty much...it's just coming down to NRS using an uncommon method of listing startup frames.

Yeah I know and agree, I was just pointing that out since @xarakamaka mentioned that he was familiar with how frame data was listed in MK9, but was confused about what was different with how frame data is listed in MKX.

 

[God Confirm]

So wait up, if 9 frame reversal normal still come out on the 10th frame, what was the patch that added an extra frame to everything for? Was this 9f normal listed as 8f before?

And does block advantage factor this in? Eg a -10 on block move factors in that normals take an extra frame to come out and thus can be punished by 10f normals, but 11f specials can also punish it cause special hreversals shave a frame ?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

This thread is a great example of what should be going through everyone's head when they lab. Most players do not even put half the thought into testing their proof of concepts here. Half the chumps around here spout stuff and when proven wrong they just say "oh really? I didn't know that" and move on because they speak before they lab.

This thread should be stickied if anything. @xarakamaka you are a great LK player don't let all the forum trolls bog you down it just comes with the territory. At least you put in some work even though the conclusion you came to was debunked. To the majority in here. . . what you should really be thinking is "why was xarakamaka testing this to begin with?"

The wisdom of this man is boundless.

Harold. When we gonna hang and play MK? I've been practicing but your coaching is unparalleled.