Breakthrough - Dragons Fire a lesson to be learnt in frame data lol

[Doombawkz]

Dizzy too stronk, answered my question before I even asked it.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Dizzy too stronk, answered my question before I even asked it.

He's not the false information officer for nothing, he's good at his job lol

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Then someone explain why after FK MB then an 8 frame normal

if this is true howcome takeda can trade with an 8f poke + the extra frame so 9 vs a 10f mid after +2?

@GGA Dizzy
I'll be happy if you're correct , the frame data confuses me in this game, but your saying every move is actually one frame slower than listed in the frame data , is that correct? Takedas down 1 trades with Liu kangs b1 every time , why is that happening?

 

[Doombawkz]

Then someone explain why after FK MB then an 8 frame normal

@GGA Dizzy
I'll be happy if you're correct , the frame data confuses me in this game, but your saying every move is actually one frame slower than listed in the frame data , is that correct? Takedas down 1 trades with Liu kangs b1 every time , why is that happening?

Animation differences. Also when it comes to blockstun, yes invariably every character must take 1 frame to return to neutral stance before they can use a move, with the exception being normal throw out of the block input and special moves (memory serving), so in effect every move would indeed be 1 frame slower.

 

[Dizzy]

Then someone explain why after FK MB then an 8 frame normal

@GGA Dizzy
I'll be happy if you're correct , the frame data confuses me in this game, but your saying every move is actually one frame slower than listed in the frame data , is that correct? Takedas down 1 trades with Liu kangs b1 every time , why is that happening?

That is oversimplifying it IMO, but It's an easy way to wrap your head around it.

It was like a month or two ago I looked into it, but Takeda's d1 did not trade with b1 after MB Flying Kick. I really only think that would happen from user error (one or both players timing wrong).

Keep in mind there is no input buffer for normals in this game, so it would require a frame perfect input to beat Takeda's d1 cleanly after MB Flying Kick with LK's B1.

TL;DR - No offense to whoever posted it, but all of my testing showed Takeda's D1 cannot beat b1 after MB Flying Kick if timed properly.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

He's not the false information officer for nothing, he's good at his job lol

Nope that'll turn into me later on because i spread false information on a daily basis

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Nope that'll turn into me later on because i spread false information on a daily basis

Btw xarakamaka is streaming right now

 

[Wigy]

Couple examples , Liu kang s1 is 100% plus 2 on block . So set Kung Lao to reversal spin and do s1 into b1 , it should trade but it won't. Then try FK MB which is plus 2 also , and again follow up with b1 it should trade but it won't . Then I spent over one hour with takeda and did FK MB into b1 until I get the perfect b1 frame and do d1 with takeda which it should lose, but it will trade at perfect frame

Im confused isnt spin 6 frames and dont reversals come out 1 frame faster than normals

 

[SylverRye]

Im confused now lol. Frame data is really complex. I wish we could get a definitive answer so that everyone will know what their options are (or lack of). I also wish that people wouldn't try to derail threads about liu everytime hes brought up. Downplay, up play who cares, thats not the topic. But then again this is tym so this kind of shit is inevitable. Thanks xara and also dizzy for a very informative explanation.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Im confused isnt spin 6 frames and dont reversals come out 1 frame faster than normals

In MK9 spin is 6 frames...

 

[aieches]

Wait. Whos at advantage after the trade for example with takeda?

I assume his d1 is more + than f2 or the first hit of b1, cant check my ps4 at the moment

in ronin or SR/Lasher

F2 across the board is 12 frames -
b1 in ronin is 11 and in lasher /SR its a whopping 21
theres no way SR is getting out with b1 lol .
-

EDIT -oh- i think we got shot down again - takeda cant trade in SR as D1 and D2 are 8 frames if the LK is frame perfect
- typo- for b1 - its 11 not 7

is this correct @GGA Dizzy ?\

 

[Wigy]

In MK9 spin is 6 frames...

Lol i don't play lao and not at my console, my bad. Im assuming its 7 but even then i thought reversals came out faster than specials by a frame or am i misinformed.

 

[Wigy]

in ronin or SR/Lasher

F2 across the board is 12 frames -
b1 in ronin is 7 and in lasher /SR its a whopping 21
theres no way SR is getting out with b1 lol .

SR is where the prob lies
SR doesnt really seem to have an option better than a trade, pretty much trade or take the hit. or be lucky and guess/read where the LK player isnt air tight.

I was talking about liu kangs f2/b1 vs takedas d1.

 

[AK Harold]

As @GGA Dizzy stated, reversals with special moves are easier to test because they are frame perfect with the input buffer. When testing frame data/traps you have to work toward testing if something is false more than if it is true because of human error. In the case of normals vs normals you are stuck with two possible input errors and not being frame perfect on either end.

That being said forcing them to use the b12 option in itself is how you get out of the pressure.

 

[aieches]

I was talking about liu kangs f2/b1 vs takedas d1.

oh my bad - i read that wrong

 

[Scott The Scot]

Lol i don't play lao and not at my console, my bad. Im assuming its 7 but even then i thought reversals came out faster than specials by a frame or am i misinformed.

In my head the tone of my reply was funnier, but I sounded a little dickish if you read it a certain way my bad lol

In MKX it's 7 frames, and will punish something at -7 because that's what reversals do. Whereas non-reversals (normals etc) can only punish something that's negative by the startup plus an extra frame for like letting go of block (Don't know if that's really what's happening, but it's an easy way to think about it). So a non-reversal move at 7 frames can only punishing something at -8.

 

[hayatei]

if b1 doesn't get low profiled, the best way to test this is by using a 9 frame reversal like reptile slide

if it trades at best, the block advantage should probably get reduced by a frame anyway, just like they did with ronin

 

[HazeXIII]

I have been saying this for the longest liu does not jail people its just u people are 2 lazy to effin hit the lab for once lmaoo good shit@xarakamaka

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I have been saying this for the longest liu does not jail people its just u people are 2 lazy to effin hit the lab for once lmaoo good shit@xarakamaka

Try poking out with erron black jason and kenshi and takeda

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I have been saying this for the longest liu does not jail people its just u people are 2 lazy to effin hit the lab for once lmaoo good shit@xarakamaka

Btw good luck!

 

[Wigy]

In my head the tone of my reply was funnier, but I sounded a little dickish if you read it a certain way my bad lol

In MKX it's 7 frames, and will punish something at -7 because that's what reversals do. Whereas non-reversals (normals etc) can only punish something that's negative by the startup plus an extra frame for like letting go of block (Don't know if that's really what's happening, but it's an easy way to think about it). So a non-reversal move at 7 frames can only punishing something at -8.

Surely this invalidates the way hes tested this then. Since liu isn't unblocking after mb dragon kick and you have to?

I.E it does jail.

He should test to see if its possible to punish a -9 move with another character 9 frame move to see if its possible.

@xarakamaka

 

[dennycascade]

What's the freaking point of this, just block low with any character and make the bicycle kicks whiff for a free full combo (even though highs are meant to connect on crouch blocks). Thank you NRS for your logical approach to hitboxes.

 

[Wigy]

What's the freaking point of this, just block low with any character and make the bicycle kicks whiff for a free full combo (even though highs are meant to connect on crouch blocks). Thank you NRS for your logical approach to hitboxes.

I was under the impression that only worked in the corner vs some of the cast or if you time the mb wrong

 

[GOOD DRAGON]

if b1 doesn't get low profiled, the best way to test this is by using a 9 frame reversal like reptile slide

if it trades at best, the block advantage should probably get reduced by a frame anyway, just like they did with ronin

I guess that would determine if it's a 10f start up or not. That is only if what dizzy said is true and it's active after the 10 start up frames meaning it should come out in the 9th frame after ex FK.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Surely this invalidates the way hes tested this then. Since liu isn't unblocking after mb dragon kick and you have to?

I.E it does jail.

He should test to see if its possible to punish a -9 move with another character 9 frame move to see if its possible.

I dno man, take it up Xaraka lol