Breakthrough - Dragons Fire a lesson to be learnt in frame data lol

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Can we just get a video? I mean... Everyone's playing this game on next gen with internet... Why no video? Lol

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Can we just get a video? I mean... Everyone's playing this game on next gen with internet... Why no video? Lol

You want a video of me getting spun out all the time?

 

[THTB]

What should be found now is who has the frame advantage on that trade if you have to poke. Because if it's significantly in his advantage, then a trade is not what you want still.

This is huge for characters who can do a stand normal to trade or contest, but for those who have to resort to poking to get out, the situation will still suck if he is indeed at advantage still.

 

[Dizzy]

This is not backed up by frame data or any examples I've found. I've looked into this extensively.

Couple examples , Liu kang s1 is 100% plus 2 on block . So set Kung Lao to reversal spin and do s1 into b1 , it should trade but it won't. Then try FK MB which is plus 2 also , and again follow up with b1 it should trade but it won't . Then I spent over one hour with takeda and did FK MB into b1 until I get the perfect b1 frame and do d1 with takeda which it should lose, but it will trade at perfect frame

That is the problem with your test; normals and specials are different when reversals are involved. Spin is 7 frames, when is done as a reversal it hits in 7 frames. However a 7 frame d1 will hit on frame 8. If spin is not trading that does not mean anything. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun as a system mechanic of the game.

Of course Liu Kang's b1 hits on frame 10, it has 9 frames of startup then it's active frames begin. Just like Kung Jin's 7f startup D1 hits on frame 8. That is how the frame data is listed for this game. It's the old-school style of frame data, where startup is listed seperately from the first active frame. (This is different than @Somberness MK9 frame data for example)

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

What has any of this to with this thread?

Sorry for derailing the thread bro!

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

No it's 9 frames! You sound stupid. I'll prove it when I get home, and you'll look stupid

you can tell your 15 years old elite

 

[smokey]

What should be found now is who has the frame advantage on that trade if you have to poke. Because if it's significantly in his advantage, then a trade is not what you want still.

This is huge for characters who can do a stand normal to trade or contest, but for those who have to resort to poking to get out, the situation will still suck if he is indeed at advantage still.

I was thinking the same thing as if its +3 and can react fast enough its still an infinite on those characters.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

But this happens a lot on tym all the time bro all the time

 

[Cameronwinss]

Give Jacqui Longer normals...and hair.

 

[Notez4]

i was trying so hard (online btw) to punish that exact settup with tremors F1 and never could. will continue to try!

 

[Phosferrax]

This is not backed up by frame data or any examples I've found. I've looked into this extensively.



That is the problem with your test; normals and specials are different when reversals are involved. Spin is 7 frames, when is done as a reversal it hits in 7 frames. However a 7 frame d1 will hit on frame 8. If spin is not trading that does not mean anything. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun as a system mechanic of the game.

Of course Liu Kang's b1 hits on frame 10, it has 9 frames of startup then it's active frames begin. Just like Kung Jin's 7f startup D1 hits on frame 8. That is how the frame data is listed for this game. It's the old-school style of frame data, where startup is listed seperately from the first active frame. (This is different than @Somberness MK9 frame data for example)

It was my understanding that in vanilla MKX, the frame data did not include the impact frame, but after the first patch when 'every move was made a frame slower' that it was actually the result of the impact frame being added to the data. Is this incorrect?

 

[ArmedCalf]

This is not backed up by frame data or any examples I've found. I've looked into this extensively.



That is the problem with your test; normals and specials are different when reversals are involved. Spin is 7 frames, when is done as a reversal it hits in 7 frames. However a 7 frame d1 will hit on frame 8. If spin is not trading that does not mean anything. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun as a system mechanic of the game.

Of course Liu Kang's b1 hits on frame 10, it has 9 frames of startup then it's active frames begin. Just like Kung Jin's 7f startup D1 hits on frame 8. That is how the frame data is listed for this game. It's the old-school style of frame data, where startup is listed seperately from the first active frame. (This is different than @Somberness MK9 frame data for example)

I learned so much from this post, thank you sir

 

[Scott The Scot]

Now, either Liu's B1 is actually 9 frames or Ermac's B3,4 is more negative than -10 or if it requires one frame to let go of block. Honestly, I'm not sure of the rules anymore or of it's only reversals that punish on the frame. I thought if it was 10 frames this punish wouldn't work:

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Now, either Liu's B1 is actually 9 frames or Ermac's B3,4 is more negative than -10 if it requires one frame to let go of block.

#TheMoreYouKnow
Edit: Should have said #TheMoreYouDownplay

 

[IrishMantis]

Now, either Liu's B1 is actually 9 frames or Ermac's B3,4 is more negative than -10 or if it requires one frame to let go of block. Honestly, I'm not sure of the rules anymore or of it's only reversals that punish on the frame. I thought if it was 10 frames this punish wouldn't work:

Good stuff Scott

Try it on SZ ground smash because 100% -10

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

This is not backed up by frame data or any examples I've found. I've looked into this extensively.



That is the problem with your test; normals and specials are different when reversals are involved. Spin is 7 frames, when is done as a reversal it hits in 7 frames. However a 7 frame d1 will hit on frame 8. If spin is not trading that does not mean anything. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun as a system mechanic of the game.

Of course Liu Kang's b1 hits on frame 10, it has 9 frames of startup then it's active frames begin. Just like Kung Jin's 7f startup D1 hits on frame 8. That is how the frame data is listed for this game. It's the old-school style of frame data, where startup is listed seperately from the first active frame. (This is different than @Somberness MK9 frame data for example)

if this is true howcome takeda can trade with an 8f poke + the extra frame so 9 vs a 10f mid after +2?

 

[Mr_Swizzer]

No it's 9 frames! You sound stupid. I'll prove it when I get home, and you'll look stupid

 

[SaSSolino]

still needs a big nerf

 

[Scott The Scot]

Good stuff Scott

Try it on SZ ground smash because 100% -10

Yes sir, clean punish:

I think we may have an answer.

 

[StealthyMuffin]

I still have absolutely no clue as to what's actually true. Classic Liu Kang thread.

 

[Dizzy]

It was my understanding that in vanilla MKX, the frame data did not include the impact frame, but after the first patch when 'every move was made a frame slower' that it was actually the result of the impact frame being added to the data. Is this incorrect?

The frame data at release was just wrong. Best not to think of those dark days. Luckily it was mostly sorted out in the next few weeks with only a couple moves being still messed up.

Talking strictly about start up, btw.

 

[Wigy]

Wait. Whos at advantage after the trade for example with takeda?

I assume his d1 is more + than f2 or the first hit of b1, cant check my ps4 at the moment

 

[Awkward Sloth]

The frame data at release was just wrong. Best not to think of those dark days. Luckily it was mostly sorted out in the next few weeks with only a couple moves being still messed up.

Talking strictly about start up, btw.

Tanya's F4 still is listed as have cancel advantage of even though it's not special cancel able. Can that be fixed by the final patch of the game by either making it cancel able or 0 cancel advantage please?

 

[BigMilk]

Still sucks for the one defending if an 8 frame will, at best, trade but nice find @xarakamaka thanks for making this clear

 

[IrishMantis]

Yes sir, clean punish:

I think we may have an answer.

yeah it's definite 9 frames so, only other option is pushback and I don't think it pushes far enough to penalise a full frame

The problem with testing normals against reversals(specials)

Is 1. What Dizzy said above it comes out in the exact frame when normals have an extra frame of blockstun

2. reversal do not require much execution as in most fighting games it's hefty buffer window, so you can like input your reversal Special 7 frames before and it will store the reversal to still activate on the first possible frame, as said above not only normals take an extra frame after coming out from blocking but you literally need to press it on the very first frame.