The Last Son of Krypton -- Superman General Discussion Thread

[nfdsallwd]

Raynex great write up. is there a post with all the mixups and setups possible after hard knockdowns? i can write a bit about it, but i know only the basic stuff, would be great if you put all the setups in one post

 

[chronos411]

Supes High/Low game is only really good for catching people sleeping. His whiff punishment is how you open people up. Like Quantum said he has the fastest mid hitting move in the game and it goes about 1/3 of the screen. F23 is probably the best string in the game honestly. Your opponents should fear pressing buttons and jumping against you.

 

[KDZ]

Raynex Excellent writeup for an beginner to intermediate Superman player. This forum really needed that, and you did an excellent job.

That's not how it goes at top level.

 

[tazzmission]

You'd be surprised at the things that are wrong with the humans of this planet; this unfortunate situation with CM Punk is just one example.

im suprised he couldnt have his mom legally put into a psych ward since she threatened to kill herself 4 times plus bipolar disorder? thats a huge red flag

this is why in some cases i wish the law would allow it

 

[Raynex]

Raynex Excellent writeup for an beginner to intermediate Superman player. This forum really needed that, and you did an excellent job.

That's not how it goes at top level.

Thanks man. But to clarify, this is information everyone can use, it's applicable to the character at every level of play. Grabs, varied blockstrings, good oki setups, corner strategy...that's "not how it goes at top level"? I sincerely hope I just misunderstood your closing sentence KDZ. It sounds patronizing and elitist.

 

[tazzmission]

i laughed at this

there going at it at summerslam

 

[M-Aran-X]

Thanks man. But to clarify, this is information everyone can use, it's applicable to the character at every level of play. Grabs, varied blockstrings, good oki setups, corner strategy...that's "not how it goes at top level"? I sincerely hope I just misunderstood your closing sentence KDZ. It sounds patronizing and elitist.

One last question: whats better? a button for grab or the combination of 1+3? same for interactable. I play with a madcatz TE, release check off and alternate controls and I do wonders (feel way better and in more control) so whats better? a single button or a shortcut?

 

[Destin]

If you can get a f23, and it's +1, and there is no chance they are going to do anything, you gotta take that on block. That's just game theory, there's literally no reason not to unless they will actually counter it, +1 on block is better than +0, block damage and meter build. Waiting for them to make a mistake is fine and all, but it wouldn't work against someone who doesn't throw out whiffs. Chip damage from the f23 string is cool, and pushes to the corner where I assume superman actually has a mixup or two with maybe his instant overhead dive? I don't mean to come down hard on you raynex, I don't know the game that well, but that stuck out to me as not necessarily correct ideas.

 

[M-Aran-X]

If you can get a f23, and it's +1, and there is no chance they are going to do anything, you gotta take that on block. That's just game theory, there's literally no reason not to unless they will actually counter it, +1 on block is better than +0, block damage and meter build. Waiting for them to make a mistake is fine and all, but it wouldn't work against someone who doesn't throw out whiffs. Chip damage from the f23 string is cool, and pushes to the corner where I assume superman actually has a mixup or two with maybe his instant overhead dive? I don't mean to come down hard on you raynex, I don't know the game that well, but that stuck out to me as not necessarily correct ideas.

the problem with that is that characters like batman or most of d1 beats the crap of that f23 on block. Try to do f23, f23 against a good batman (even adding breath) and you will get punished by a combo of 49%

 

[Destin]

Then you would not use it, that argument was predicated on the idea that you know the opponent will do nothing against the f23.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Then you would not use it, that argument was predicated on the idea that you know the opponent will do nothing against the f23.

the F23 whiff punish is done with the proviso that you are making your opponent do something as well as you guaging how well your opponent knows the matchup. ie. F23 backdash, if your opponent knows to blow up a f23 loop with d2 and you back dash while they (incorrectly) d2, you can follow up and whiff punish with the f23 into full combo punish. This is a basic scenario just to outline my point. Also, floating backwards and doing nothing will aggravate impatient players into doing something stupid where you can do a naked F23 to punish (again, just a basic scenario to outline what I mean). You should never assume that the opponent will just do nothing against a F23, even if they do, that's a pressure follow up or a throw at worst.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

If you can get a f23, and it's +1, and there is no chance they are going to do anything, you gotta take that on block. That's just game theory, there's literally no reason not to unless they will actually counter it, +1 on block is better than +0, block damage and meter build. Waiting for them to make a mistake is fine and all, but it wouldn't work against someone who doesn't throw out whiffs. Chip damage from the f23 string is cool, and pushes to the corner where I assume superman actually has a mixup or two with maybe his instant overhead dive? I don't mean to come down hard on you raynex, I don't know the game that well, but that stuck out to me as not necessarily correct ideas.

As of Jul 2, F23~breath is 0 on block allowing for characters to counter attack . but also allowing superman more options. Getting caught in a naked F23 with no follow up is not the end of the world bc its only -2 but trying to follow up with another F23 will most certainly get countered. (F23 is hit confirmable into w/e the player wants to do anyway)

 

[KDZ]

I think you did misunderstand.

Lets leave it at "That was an excellent writeup!" Because it was.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Raynex, good shit as always. Reading your shit always makes me wanna go back to the lab




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Reptile Orion]

Raynex, good shit as always. Reading your shit always makes me wanna go back to the lab

It's funny that you mentioned that because I was thinking the same thing. Earlier this morning when I was taking a break I actually reread parts of Raynex's Superman guide in anticipation in focusing on Supes whenever I'm back on IGAU this evening. Another excellent write up man Raynex.

 

[Raynex]

If you can get a f23, and it's +1, and there is no chance they are going to do anything, you gotta take that on block. That's just game theory, there's literally no reason not to unless they will actually counter it, +1 on block is better than +0, block damage and meter build. Waiting for them to make a mistake is fine and all, but it wouldn't work against someone who doesn't throw out whiffs. Chip damage from the f23 string is cool, and pushes to the corner where I assume superman actually has a mixup or two with maybe his instant overhead dive? I don't mean to come down hard on you raynex, I don't know the game that well, but that stuck out to me as not necessarily correct ideas.

If they don't throw out whiffs, then you read their defense and do more strings to restart the guessing game. The chip damage is NOT the focal point, its minor but its still there and still counts as +1 for you. You won't be stringing 3 reps of F23~breath on someones block all the time, but maybe if you read them correctly (overuse of down+back) you can get a few reps in to get them to the corner.

When they do nothing in the face of pressure is when you go for airdash mix-ups, throws, more blockstrings or anything else you think might work. Heat zap would be good here too, 6% of chip and +19 on block (and its hard to punish Superman even when crouched)

Once you get your opponent into the corner your standard mix-ups improve. F3 is a slow overhead but its +9 on block. If it hits you get 70+%, if they block it you can frame trap with F23~breath into another guessing game or you can throw while they're in blockstun. Because being in the corner negates pushback, if you make them block heat zap / F3 / B3 they'll still be point blank and reeling from 7+ frames of blockstun. Midscreen you normally can't do much but in the corner they have to deal with it as long as you connect with their block. How do you connect with slow moves? By conditioning your opponent to do what you just described Destin, not throwing out whiffs or buttons in general. You pressure them, they continue to block, you make a read while on the offensive then you do slower moves with heavy frame advantage to give you entirely new possibilities. THEN you can start faking the F3 / B3s and dashing in or [MB]ing them to blow up interruption mid-charge.

This is just one scenario. You can still use grab mix-ups at point blank and blow up throw break attempts, you can run the double overhead w/ dive for 70+%, you can walk back B1~[MB] breath for a far reaching, safe, low combo starter, etc.

Hitting their block with F23~breath over and over isn't always a bad thing, but thinking differently about it may lead to better results with the most predictable string in the game. People have different preferences; I'm simply trying to maximize the depth of F23 and make it more effective. Ultimately you should do what works for you. Sometimes I go nuts with F23~breath because I have a read on during my offense. Other times I face Nightwings / Batmans who always press buttons, so being passive and waiting works, because they swing first. Use your judgement, my posts are not end all be all, just advice!

I appreciate the criticism, that's how people improve. What about this do you find incorrect if I may ask?

 

[Destin]

the F23 whiff punish is done with the proviso that you are making your opponent do something as well as you guaging how well your opponent knows the matchup. ie. F23 backdash, if your opponent knows to blow up a f23 loop with d2 and you back dash while they (incorrectly) d2, you can follow up and whiff punish with the f23 into full combo punish. This is a basic scenario just to outline my point. Also, floating backwards and doing nothing will aggravate impatient players into doing something stupid where you can do a naked F23 to punish (again, just a basic scenario to outline what I mean). You should never assume that the opponent will just do nothing against a F23, even if they do, that's a pressure follow up or a throw at worst.

For the point of the conversation I am going to assume you are playing a level of players who aren't prone to throw out moves due to aggravation (if they were to doing that, that would be a whole nother can of worms)

I was responding the comment in the guide that "hitting the block" was a bad thing. While it is still +1, if you do so, you are left in a purely advantageous situation compared to the previous, as long as it was used in neutral. You are using the fear off all the things I mentioned (positioning, meter, and chip) to created a situation where the opponent wants to throw a move or dangerous tactic to escape. The d1 is a dangerous tactic coming out of frame disadvantage, as mentioned it is whiff punishable. Because they are forced to do something, or continue to eat chip/meter/positioning issues, that in effect opens them up.

At raynex: I'll get on that in just a second.

 

[tazzmission]

sad just sad


Matthew Wade Osborne, a.k.a. Matt Borne, passed away today at the age of 55. He was living with his girlfriend, who found him dead this morning. No other details are known as of yet.
Osborne most famously wrestled as the original Doink the Clown in the WWF. He also competed as Big Josh in WCW, and faced Ricky Steamboat at the first WrestleMania.

WWE.com has an article on Osborne's passing at this link.

We would like to offer our condolences to Osborne's family and friends during this difficult time.





Read more: http://www.WrestlingInc.com/wi/news/2013/0628/563755/matt-borne/#ixzz2XXzwfuAJ

 

[Destin]

If they don't throw out whiffs, then you read their defense and do more strings to restart the guessing game. The chip damage is NOT the focal point, its minor but its still there and still counts as +1 for you. You won't be stringing 3 reps of F23~breath on someones block all the time, but maybe if you read them correctly (overuse of down+back) you can get a few reps in to get them to the corner.

When they do nothing in the face of pressure is when you go for airdash mix-ups, throws, more blockstrings or anything else you think might work. Heat zap would be good here too, 6% of chip and +19 on block (and its hard to punish Superman even when crouched)

Once you get your opponent into the corner your standard mix-ups improve. F3 is a slow overhead but its +9 on block. If it hits you get 70+%, if they block it you can frame trap with F23~breath into another guessing game or you can throw while they're in blockstun. Because being in the corner negates pushback, if you make them block heat zap / F3 / B3 they'll still be point blank and reeling from 7+ frames of blockstun. Midscreen you normally can't do much but in the corner they have to deal with it as long as you connect with their block. How do you connect with slow moves? By conditioning your opponent to do what you just described Destin, not throwing out whiffs or buttons in general. You pressure them, they continue to block, you make a read while on the offensive then you do slower moves with heavy frame advantage to give you entirely new possibilities. THEN you can start faking the F3 / B3s and dashing in or [MB]ing them to blow up interruption mid-charge.

This is just one scenario. You can still use grab mix-ups at point blank and blow up throw break attempts, you can run the double overhead w/ dive for 70+%, you can walk back B1~[MB] breath for a far reaching, safe, low combo starter, etc.

I appreciate the criticism, that's how people improve. What about this do you find incorrect if I may ask?

There is nothing inherrantly wrong with what is said here.

Can the airdash mixup be reaction countered in this game? Not sure just asking. Dash in throw/throw beating attack is an ok mixup after considerable conditioning, but has a HUGE risk attached to it for low/high reward respectively, and resets to a position superman might or might not want. More blockstrings are great, but if the opponent is just reacting highs and blocking low, which blockstring comes out better than f23? Heat zap has some interesting ideas attached to it, but after the opponent ducks it (which if they are already hard turtling they will likely do), is superman at advantage or disadvantage? I know he can't be punished, but if I am sitting pretty at +1, i wouldn't be very inclined to drop that to -5. In the corner its a different game, and thats a good thing.

If you can get them to do nothing after the +1 breathe, then that's great, because you get a psychological +more than 1. But the problem is with slow walk speeds all over this game, it makes the throw game much weaker. You still have to cross the opponents entire poke range to get in there. That's why another f2,3 often seems to enticing, neatherealms didn't really give us a wide variety of great options there.

Edit before the silly: No I am not advocating continual mindless forwards 2,3 breathe. Somewhat Ironically, think of that move as ryu's fireball. If the opponent does nothing, he is forced to eat chip, positioning and meter. If the opponent does something (in sf, jump, in this throw out a move in anticipation of hitting you), he can be punished severely for taking that risk at the wrong time.

 

[Raynex]

There is nothing inherrantly wrong with what is said here.

Can the airdash mixup be reaction countered in this game? Not sure just asking. Dash in throw/throw beating attack is an ok mixup after considerable conditioning, but has a HUGE risk attached to it for low/high reward respectively, and resets to a position superman might or might not want. More blockstrings are great, but if the opponent is just reacting highs and blocking low, which blockstring comes out better than f23? Heat zap has some interesting ideas attached to it, but after the opponent ducks it (which if they are already hard turtling they will likely do), is superman at advantage or disadvantage? I know he can't be punished, but if I am sitting pretty at +1, i wouldn't be very inclined to drop that to -5. In the corner its a different game, and thats a good thing.

If you can get them to do nothing after the +1 breathe, then that's great, because you get a psychological +more than 1. But the problem is with slow walk speeds all over this game, it makes the throw game much weaker. You still have to cross the opponents entire poke range to get in there. That's why another f2,3 often seems to enticing, neatherealms didn't really give us a wide variety of great options there.

Edit before the silly: No I am not advocating continual mindless forwards 2,3 breathe. Somewhat Ironically, think of that move as ryu's fireball. If the opponent does nothing, he is forced to eat chip, positioning and meter. If the opponent does something (in sf, jump, in this throw out a move in anticipation of hitting you), he can be punished severely for taking that risk at the wrong time.

Most mix-ups in this game can be reaction countered with enough practice, air dash ones included. If you have a slew of setups the quick, low air dashes won't be as easy to spot, and even more difficult to left / right block. I don't think I'm being clear with my position on throw use and punishing throw tech attempts. Dash in throw / attack to beat throw is a slow, seeable mix-up. But point blank throws post-knockdown or after pressure / frame advantage, D1~throw...these are basic grab setups that you can easily tweak to blow up any attempt at avoiding the throw. A real situation that where this would be useful, for example (from personal experience):

opponent is cornered, you do F23~breath on their block, you predict their continued defense so you F3. Opponent blocks F3 and you are now at massive frame advantage. Grab! Sometime later in a match you get them to block a [MB] F3, grab again. The next time it comes up, they'll likely grab break, so F23 frame trap for a full combo.

This is not a script to be followed, its just something that happened in tournament the other day.

No blockstring is better than F23~breath, but that doesn't mean you should turn your brain off and do that only. I'm of the opinion you should use every tool in the box because they all have their own uses, and visual variety is important. If F23~Zap actually hits their block fully, that would be the best string he has, right? Blockstring variance is crucial in any game where blockstrings exist. If you're the type of player that would rather take out that added diversity, then that's perfectly fine. It's something I advocate because it works for me. People react differently when they see different moves, they'll be more comfortable if they dealt with 1 string for entire sets and I'd much rather keep them on their toes.

 

[Destin]

Most mix-ups in this game can be reaction countered with enough practice, air dash ones included. If you have a slew of setups the quick, low air dashes won't be as easy to spot, and even more difficult to left / right block. I don't think I'm being clear with my position on throw use and punishing throw tech attempts. Dash in throw / attack to beat throw is a slow, seeable mix-up. But point blank throws post-knockdown or after pressure / frame advantage, D1~throw...these are basic grab setups that you can easily tweak to blow up any attempt at avoiding the throw. A real situation that where this would be useful, for example (from personal experience):

opponent is cornered, you do F23~breath on their block, you predict their continued defense so you F3. Opponent blocks F3 and you are now at massive frame advantage. Grab! Sometime later in a match you get them to block a [MB] F3, grab again. The next time it comes up, they'll likely grab break, so F23 frame trap for a full combo.

This is not a script to be followed, its just something that happened in tournament the other day.

No blockstring is better than F23~breath, but that doesn't mean you should turn your brain off and do that only. I'm of the opinion you should use every tool in the box because they all have their own uses, and visual variety is important. If F23~Zap actually hits their block fully, that would be the best string he has, right? Blockstring variance is crucial in any game where blockstrings exist. If you're the type of player that would rather take out that added diversity, then that's perfectly fine. It's something I advocate because it works for me. People react differently when they see different moves, they'll be more comfortable if they dealt with 1 string for entire sets and I'd much rather keep them on their toes.

Superman, with what I have used of him, seems quite competent in the corner, no debate there. While I mostly agree with you on the diversity of attacks, that is usually done in games where you have some sort of mixup. Like, I can hide a 25 frame overhead well enough with variety to make it useable,! But when his only overhead is 30 frames, sigh.

Something I jsut thought of, what is the counter in this game to crossups in neutral? Really high reaching anti airs? Dash forwards? Poor crossups in general?

 

[M-Aran-X]

whats better, a single button for a throw? or the button combination short cut? same goes for interactable. I'm asking this because i play in a madcatz, and sometimes with the short cut I tend to mess up.

 

[MashBot]

Idk about grabs and interactables but I know the 3 button supers come out more often the then the shortcut. Ex on wakeup some meaty stuff get stuffed mashing shortcut super but if you mash the 3 buttons it comes out not sure why that happens and sure the same go for the others but ima make a supes video after CEO show how one works better then the other.

 

[tazzmission]

for some reason it wont work for me

 

[ABACABB]

he got nerfed