Awesome Argument on WNF

[Organelle]

Its not really in WB best interest for the game to be a tourney viable game, there in it for the casual money, and fighting game tournaments don't profit them. The star craft scene is only profitable to blizzard because of all the shit that korea has done for the game, and the fact it is broadcasted on live TV over there, its there fucking national sport, the fighting game scene can't even compare to that.

For better or worse, MK is a brand that will sell no matter what, even if the game is completele horse shit, I applaud NRS for even bothering to try to make a non shitty game at this point, as retarded as that sounds.

Korea just provided a dedicated player base, Blizzard did the rest. The MK community has supported garbage games, so they are missing out on SO many financial opportunities by slowly whittling down their fan base by continuing to release crap.

Crap games aren't nearly as profitable as they once were. It is pretty much proven fact now that most of the blockbuster games are blockbusters because the myth that they are 'tournament games.' Kids see stars when they think they can become famous playing video games.

Take League of Legends for example. The game is FREE. The only money the company makes is through dlc and advertising. And they are seeing green already. It is also one of the fastest growing competitive games which is super highly streamed ... and guess what, there are more fighting games streamed on average then LoL games.

I think fighting game fans don't realize how big the scene really is, but now with the help of the internet, I think the community is beginning to see just how big it really is.

The game and the scene are going to be fine. The patch will be released before Evo. The DLCs will most likely be released after Evo. I think I speak for all members who have been here since MK: D when I say that there is a lot of potential with MK9.

I agree with you about the potential. Like I said numerous times in this thread. I love MK9 and I want it to be the game I go pro in for the fighting game scene. As for all the other claims in your post, NRS hasn't down much to make me believe they are putting working into making MK9 live 3 years. Seems like their resources are already allocated in MK10.

 

[PunchYaFace]

Thankyou. I see your point. It depresses me. The game really stands out from everything else. I come for playing Tekken competively so this was a nice change of pace. I hope it does well at EVO. Cool if we got something other then Kung vs Kung. After EVO I wonder if it will last long.

 

[REO]

Sure thing.

It lacks any real depth because there are no links, no real footsies, can't bait tech throws because it's a 50/50 guessing game, everyone has the same neutral jump punch, kick, jump forward punch and kick, same crouching pokes that do not link into combos, and EVERYTHING causes DAMAGE on BLOCK which allows no real wake up game because at a pixel of life left you can literally get POKED to death.

This makes for a very generic fighter and the meta game SUFFERS because of it. Has everything been found out yet? No but this is no Super Turbo - trust me. It won't take long to figure everything out to be honest. I would be shocked if a year from now there would be some new Kung technology or Ermac's won't still be using 22 xx lift for max damage.

Do you see what I mean?

Truth. I can easily see this game being played a year from now not much different from how it is today. (all infinites and bugs excluded)

 

[Juggs]

Everyone should just play UMK3, it's a great game, great experience.

 

[Loot]

Not to stir this off topic, but while Blizzard is good with patches, a lot of the things they do patch is very questionable. For WoW at least. To shed some light, the 2 weeks buff Upball received is something that occurs in literally every WoW patch. They fix 1 thing and break 5 more in the process. Their unbalancing makes NRS look good.

 

[Organelle]

Truth. I can easily see this game being played a year from now not much different from how it is today. (all infinites and bugs excluded)

Unfortunately I agree also, hence my recent purchase of SF4:AE. Well at least my MK cabinet ended up looking cool ;D, that will be a nice farewell memory if I do in fact have to move on to another fighter.

Not to stir this off topic, but while Blizzard is good with patches, a lot of the things they do patch is very questionable. For WoW at least. To shed some light, the 2 weeks buff Upball received is something that occurs in literally every WoW patch. They fix 1 thing and break 5 more in the process. Their unbalancing makes NRS look good.

I agree that the unpatching is good. i have no problem with it whatsoever. I think the problem is, will this game ever be balanced to tournament level. Will this game ever be bug-free. And will this game have a meta-game when it seems most characters have been figured out already. I mean the only character that is still jiving with me is sub zero. I can play him as rush down or zoner, and I like that freedom. I also like that although most tech has been figured out, rushdown sub zero seems to be a developing tech that hasn't been figured out.

I mean my roommate and gf love MK9. But from a competitive player perspective, where I rather sink money into fanboy crap for a game I play 10 years, I am not sure mortal kombat will give me longetivity, example being the arcade cabinet. I figure I could drop $250 into building it, because I wasn't planning on having to buy another fighting game, or another game (other then duke nukem and gears 3) until mk10 (which I hoped wouldnt be out for at least 3 more years). But, I have already had to go out and buy super street fighter 4, and the arcade edition download which was $35 I didn't anticipate having to spend since I had higher expectations from MK.

I probably wouldn't have splurged on 2 pdp sticks and would have built a custom stick from scratch if I wasn't intending to play a lot of mk9.

 

[Rathalos]

Korea just provided a dedicated player base, Blizzard did the rest. The MK community has supported garbage games, so they are missing out on SO many financial opportunities by slowly whittling down their fan base by continuing to release crap.

Crap games aren't nearly as profitable as they once were. It is pretty much proven fact now that most of the blockbuster games are blockbusters because the myth that they are 'tournament games.' Kids see stars when they think they can become famous playing video games.

Take League of Legends for example. The game is FREE. The only money the company makes is through dlc and advertising. And they are seeing green already. It is also one of the fastest growing competitive games which is super highly streamed ... and guess what, there are more fighting games streamed on average then LoL games.

I think fighting game fans don't realize how big the scene really is, but now with the help of the internet, I think the community is beginning to see just how big it really is.

Korea did far more then provide a playerbase, they did everything to make the game popular, there the ones that created the leagues, the streams, they brought in the sponsers, and the huge crowds. Blizzard eventually help a bit, and provided some support, it wasn't until they realized just how much money korea was making of there game that they started taking serious notice, and then they used SC2 and battle net to force there way into the scene so they couold get a nice slice of the profit. SC2 is major part of koreas economy, they have huge sponsers, the entire country is behind SC.

Fighting games are by no means small, but they do not compare at all, there not very profitable, they don't bring in the sponsers, the community just isn't very marketable, no one outside of madcatz and fighting game related merc websites are going to sponser anyone or any event, its so little money its just not worth the effort on WB part.

As for the crap games thing, I worded it poorly I suppose, the MK games are not really crap from a casual perspective, there crap from a tournament perspective, and NRS doesn't have to make balanced games to get high scores from the gaming media, all they have to do is make sure its polished and have a lot of content, singleplayer content, and they will get the scores even if the game is as shallow as pong. MK will not die out anytime soon, even if they fail as a competetive game.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

We do all need to remember its still very early in the game.

 

[DanCock]

i totally agree with Bill 100%, i hope he goes into more detail with this in silents next stream..

 

[Organelle]

Korea did far more then provide a playerbase, they did everything to make the game popular, there the ones that created the leagues, the streams, they brought in the sponsers, and the huge crowds. Blizzard eventually help a bit, and provided some support, it wasn't until they realized just how much money korea was making of there game that they started taking serious notice, and then they used SC2 and battle net to force there way into the scene so they couold get a nice slice of the profit. SC2 is major part of koreas economy, they have huge sponsers, the entire country is behind SC.

Fighting games are by no means small, but they do not compare at all, there not very profitable, they don't bring in the sponsers, the community just isn't very marketable, no one outside of madcatz and fighting game related merc websites are going to sponser anyone or any event, its so little money its just not worth the effort on WB part.

As for the crap games thing, I it poorly I suppose, the MK games are not really crap from a casual perspective, there crap from a tournament perspective, and NRS doesn't have to make balanced games to get high scores from the gaming media, all they have to do is make sure its polished and have a lot of content, singleplayer content, and they will get the scores even if the game is as shallow as pong. MK will not die out anytime soon, even if they fail as a competetive game.

I disagree with you entirely on your view of the fighting game community. The problem isn't numbers, the problem is that dedicated player bases keep turtling rather then trying to grow. Korea wouldn't have backed SC if it didn't have a big player base. They just tapped and untapped resource. And the fighting game community is similar in many ways. Fighting games in Japan are taken super seriously and have nice sized prizes and promotions involved. America has a larger player base that just happens to be completely disorganized and ignored right now. The right company with the right gameplan can tap another untapped resource.

i totally agree with Bill 100%, i hope he goes into more detail with this in silents next stream..

Would bill be tom brady or aris?

 

[THTB]

I'm pretty much in agreeance that MK9 is not very complex. That's not really a bad thing, though...some good FGs are actually pretty simple. I do think it will evolve somewhat, but not too much.

The one thing I do like about this game, or will like once the patch comes out, is that the game is not nearly as random as a lot of games out there. It'll practically be all on your abilities once all the dumb stuff is gone. IMO, that's probably the absolute best aspect about MK9.

 

[Loot]

This is why the fighting game community won't grow:

Yes, I find this video to be just as hilarious as the next guy does, thanks to Guile's Theme, but the fact the commentators basically promoted the violence with the whole ITS MAHHHHHHHHHHVEEEELLL BABYYYYYYYY rather than try to assist in the control was pathetic. When players actively engage in fighting due to losing in a game centered around fighting, it gives a bad rep and people will blast it saying fighting games causes you to activate X-Factor irl. The fighting community needs to mature much more. EVO is a great start. And the community needs to step up and shapen up its image more by promoting it with sponsors, cash purses at tourneys, not to mention more tourneys in general. Local scene promotion. Regional promotion.

Just don't be like Noel Brown above and Don King some jive fool.

 

[M2Dave]

Sure thing.

It lacks any real depth because there are no links, no real footsies, can't bait tech throws because it's a 50/50 guessing game, everyone has the same neutral jump punch, kick, jump forward punch and kick, same crouching pokes that do not link into combos, and EVERYTHING causes DAMAGE on BLOCK which allows no real wake up game because at a pixel of life left you can literally get POKED to death.

This makes for a very generic fighter and the meta game SUFFERS because of it. Has everything been found out yet? No but this is no Super Turbo - trust me. It won't take long to figure everything out to be honest. I would be shocked if a year from now there would be some new Kung technology or Ermac's won't still be using 22 xx lift for max damage.

Do you see what I mean?

Every fighting game has universal moves. It is one of the few ways to balance a fighting game. I do agree that the game is definitely not one of the deepest that I have played. However, infinite combos and glitches aside, the game has what it takes to be a competitive fighting game. Strings, combos, juggles, punishment, whiff punishment, anti-aerial moves, regular moves, special moves, enhanced special moves, X-Ray, zoning, rush down, spacing, etc. are all in the game (i.e., 90% of all gameplay elements and strategies/tactics that Street Fighter has). I am uncertain why some of you are bashing the game. You should have been here when BRC could win the round from one 50/50 mix up or when Dairou had 10:0 match ups against all low and mid tier characters.

 

[Organelle]

I'm pretty much in agreeance that MK9 is not very complex. That's not really a bad thing, though...some good FGs are actually pretty simple. I do think it will evolve somewhat, but not too much.

The one thing I do like about this game, or will like once the patch comes out, is that the game is not nearly as random as a lot of games out there. It'll practically be all on your abilities once all the dumb stuff is gone. IMO, that's probably the absolute best aspect about MK9.

Agreed. I also like that the mechanics are not super complicated, but the randomness now is killing it. It reminds me of mvc3 in that if you guess wrong your character dies, except in mk you dont have 2 more character to come back with once your character is gone. And that fact was enough to put me off to mvc3, so I hope mk9 gets things right with the patches and hotfixes.

Even SF gets pretty random, but not so much that the better player can't usually win. For example, I am the better fighting game player amongst me and my roommate. I never played sf4 before, I learned the basics with some characters, and even though he claimed he rocked with sagat since sf2, my timing and spacing beats him almost every time. I want mk9 to allow my fighting game experience to shine rather then me having to pick the character with the easiest infinite for each tournament in hopes that I get the infinite off before the other player mashing some other infinite.

That is why I disagreed with sequel earlier. Although a lot of things are derivative (such as similar punches amongst characters), and the mechanics aren't terribly complicated, I don't think that is a negative against the game, I think it is more of a conscious game style choice.

For example SF vs VF. Both credible high level fighters. Both great games in their own right. But no similarities whatsoever ... VF is super complicated and super technical, while sf is super simple but still super technical. I wouldn't mind mk being super simple as well as long as it gets the super technical part right.

Every fighting game has universal moves. It is one of the few ways to balance a fighting game. I do agree that the game is definitely not one of the deepest that I have played. However, infinite combos and glitches aside, the game has what it takes to be a competitive fighting game. Strings, combos, juggles, punishment, whiff punishment, anti-aerial moves, regular moves, special moves, enhanced special moves, X-Ray, zoning, rush down, spacing, etc. are all in the game (i.e., 90% of all gameplay elements and strategies/tactics that Street Fighter has). I am uncertain why some of you are bashing the game. You should have been here when BRC could win the round from one 50/50 mix up or when Dairou had 10:0 match ups against all low and mid tier characters.

I 100% agree. I pretty much said the same thing just now but much more crappily then you ;D haha.. I like the style of MK9 much better then SF and feel like it can directly compete with the SF niche. SF is simple and no one denies that it is an excellent tournament game which is why I have gravitated to it. I like games that require fast twitch reflexes and reading my opponent rather then memorizing 40 hit strings. So I hope that NRS finishes fixing mk9 and makes it into the tournament fighter they promised rather then delivering mk10. Prove mk9 has the lasting power of umk3.

 

[Rathalos]

I disagree with you entirely on your view of the fighting game community. The problem isn't numbers, the problem is that dedicated player bases keep turtling rather then trying to grow. Korea wouldn't have backed SC if it didn't have a big player base. They just tapped and untapped resource. And the fighting game community is similar in many ways. Fighting games in Japan are taken super seriously and have nice sized prizes and promotions involved. America has a larger player base that just happens to be completely disorganized and ignored right now. The right company with the right gameplan can tap another untapped resource.

I agree completely, the size is not the problem, its the playerbase it self, they say they want it to grow, and some do, but most would rather it stay there own little club house where they can hang out with there friends and have a good time. The other problem, which I kinda don't want to bring up, because its kinda insulting them, but I'll just come out and say it, there not an attractive bunch of people, lots of chubbys, people with poor hygiene, and there obnoxious and loud as all hell, there just not very marketable. With SC the koreans that play the game, and even the foreigners, they take there appearance very seriously, there all thin, good looking, and bathe, its a lot easier to slap there face onto something, and have them be in the spotlight. The pro players in korea are celebrities over there.

Until fighting game players start taking this far more seriously, the scene is never going to grow as much as it could, and a lot of the players just don't care.

 

[Organelle]

I agree completely, the size is not the problem, its the playerbase it self, they say they want it to grow, and some do, but most would rather it stay there own little club house where they can hang out with there friends and have a good time. The other problem, which I kinda don't want to bring up, because its kinda insulting them, but I'll just come out and say it, there not an attractive bunch of people, lots of chubbys, people with poor hygiene, and there obnoxious and loud as all hell, there just not very marketable. With SC the koreans that play the game, and even the foreigners, they take there appearance very seriously, there all thin, good looking, and bathe, its a lot easier to slap there face onto something, and have them be in the spotlight. The pro players in korea are celebrities over there.

Until fighting game players start taking this far more seriously, the scene is never going to grow as much as it could, and a lot of the players just don't care.

Yeah, I mean I am in jersey and have been advertising trying to set something up over here. And I have gotten tons of responses, but it seems like people just want to hang out for a couple hours and play casual matches where as I would like to build a scene. SRK has a 24-7 stream dedicated to sf4, why doesn't mk9 have the same yet. I mean I have the resources and have told be I do, I just don't have the tech knowledge. I am more of a hardware guy rather then a software guy, so I don't know where to begin on the software end. I would love to help the scene grow and be at the forefront of its growth, I just wish more people were type A's and willing to do so.

I mean SRK must make quite a bit considering even now there are 240 folks logged into the stream which is 240 ads people had to watch witch is 240 ads srk got paid for ...

And to go with your appearance argument, I kind of agree, which is why I am dragging my pretty gf to ETC at least for mk9. And I am going to dress nicely, so if I end up on the stream, or if she ends up on the stream, we can start slightly changing the image of the typical fighting game player. I just don't get why the fighting game community is so shy. Coming from competitive sc, gears, lost planet, and WoW, it is just shocking how timid and passive this community is.

I mean look at what Day9 is doing for the likes of sc2. And like I said, with the help, I would be happy to be the face or use my gadgets to provide a stream or whatever, I just don't know how to do it. Even Day9 had a lot of help in establishing himself as an esports promoter, so if someone wants to talk about promoting this stuff on the east coast shoot me a message and we can start tossing some ideas around.

And I don't just care about growing MK, I just want the fighting community to flex its muscle. The number of games played online rivals that of the biggest shooters , so there is no reason we cant have the marketability of those big shooters.

Edit: p.s. I am not trying to suggest I am unusually handsome or anything, but I definitely don't fit the bill of the typical fighting game player as I am sure many of you don't.

 

[Rathalos]

Ya I don't think its impossible to for the scene to grow, just that my original point was that at this current time, the FGC does not compare in anyway to SC2, and there is no real money in it for WB right now to really sponsor tournament events. I doubt WB cares either way if MK is played competitively, NRS just probably thought it would be cool to have a game that isn't made fun of, and WB doesn't really care because MK will sell no matter what. WB probably sees it more as a brand then anything else, have the game sell well and score high, raise the brand, and milk it though movies, comics, action figures, all those things, its what WB does.

As for why the FGC is so shy and gross compared to shooters? If I had to guess, shooters tend to attract more of a "dudebro" audience, well FG tend to attract more nerdy, socially awkward crowd.

Anyway, I don't want to go anymore into this conversation, its one I have personally had way to many times in the past, and it always just goes around in circles.

 

[Sequel]

This is why the fighting game community won't grow:

Yes, I find this video to be just as hilarious as the next guy does, thanks to Guile's Theme, but the fact the commentators basically promoted the violence with the whole ITS MAHHHHHHHHHHVEEEELLL BABYYYYYYYY rather than try to assist in the control was pathetic. When players actively engage in fighting due to losing in a game centered around fighting, it gives a bad rep and people will blast it saying fighting games causes you to activate X-Factor irl. The fighting community needs to mature much more. EVO is a great start. And the community needs to step up and shapen up its image more by promoting it with sponsors, cash purses at tourneys, not to mention more tourneys in general. Local scene promotion. Regional promotion.

Just don't be like Noel Brown above and Don King some jive fool.

I agree with this 100%.

m2dave ~ I agree that it has 90% of what SF has but it's a very dumbed down 90%. And that's my point. MK9 is as generic as they come which is great for casual gamers but not for hardcore tournament players who are looking for something with a little bit of depth. I've stated this many times before, you can pretty much pick up any character in this game in less than 5 minutes and if you're an already competent player it won't be difficult to get you up and winning. However, try that with a character like C.Viper and see what happens.

I agree with Aris on the stream. NRS is just incapable of making a solid tournament worthy game.

 

[Cat]

Sure thing.

It lacks any real depth because there are no links, no real footsies, can't bait tech throws because it's a 50/50 guessing game, everyone has the same neutral jump punch, kick, jump forward punch and kick, same crouching pokes that do not link into combos, and EVERYTHING causes DAMAGE on BLOCK which allows no real wake up game because at a pixel of life left you can literally get POKED to death.

This makes for a very generic fighter and the meta game SUFFERS because of it. Has everything been found out yet? No but this is no Super Turbo - trust me. It won't take long to figure everything out to be honest. I would be shocked if a year from now there would be some new Kung technology or Ermac's won't still be using 22 xx lift for max damage.

Do you see what I mean?

True. But then again if it had all that stuff you mentioned we would just be playing a street fighter version of mk. The beauty of this game is that it's different. All the sf4 fans complain about other games not being like sf4 but thing is, there not trying to be! Imagined how dull fighting games would be if they all had the same depth and mechanics.
This is mk. Not sf! Old mk games did not have pokes into combos. And different Ariel moves per character. So why would they now?

 

[Sequel]

True. But then again if it had all that stuff you mentioned we would just be playing a street fighter version of mk. The beauty of this game is that it's different. All the sf4 fans complain about other games not being like sf4 but thing is, there not trying to be! Imagined how dull fighting games would be if they all had the same depth and mechanics.
This is mk. Not sf! Old mk games did not have pokes into combos. And different Ariel moves per character. So why would they now?

Old MK games were not taken seriously until now. By some yes, but by many? No. This is really the first time almost everyone in the FGC has taken interest in a MK game. When was the last time MK was headlining at EVO?

And it does have things like SF4. LOL. X-Ray is like Ultra. Enhanced moves are like EX moves. So on the surface MK9 in fact DID copy SF4. Think about it. They put all the flash in there to compete with current games like SF but left out all the meat which makes games like SF and VF great.

 

[GUNZaBLAZE]

ahhhhhhhhhh so this is what Skisonic was yelling into the mic about while I was playing. Interesting discussion....hmmm

 

[Organelle]

True. But then again if it had all that stuff you mentioned we would just be playing a street fighter version of mk. The beauty of this game is that it's different. All the sf4 fans complain about other games not being like sf4 but thing is, there not trying to be! Imagined how dull fighting games would be if they all had the same depth and mechanics.
This is mk. Not sf! Old mk games did not have pokes into combos. And different Ariel moves per character. So why would they now?

This is where I disagree. I think MK needs to aspire to directly compete with SF. I like everything about SF except its character line up and visuals. I like all of MK's aesthetics, most of its characters, but am quickly losing a flavor for its gameplay mechanics. And like I said SF is pretty simple game basics wise, but the nuances add depth, and I agree with sequel that the individual characters are lacking individual nuances.

Old MK games were not taken seriously until now. By some yes, but by many? No. This is really the first time almost everyone in the FGC has taken interest in a MK game. When was the last time MK was headlining at EVO? And it does have things like SF4. LOL. X-Ray is like Ultra. Enhanced moves are like EX moves. So on the surface MK9 in fact DID copy SF4. Think about it. They put all the flash in there to compete with current games like SF but left out all the meat which makes games like SF and VF great.

Exactly right. Although VF5 has A LOT more meat then SF ;D. But comparing to SF once again, MK needs a similar level of depth. Capcom proved that games with simple mechanics (sf, mvc) can still have a lot of depth.

ahhhhhhhhhh so this is what Skisonic was yelling into the mic about while I was playing. Interesting discussion....hmmm

Lol, yup.

 

[Sequel]

I mean hell, they gave everyone a zoning tool and almost everyone a damn teleport. How generic is that?

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

While i totally agree on the depth and range of characters style lacking there is one thing that has always been great about MK games. Button mashing does not work against even a mediocre player.

 

[Organelle]

While i totally agree on the depth and range of characters style lacking there is one thing that has always been great about MK games. Button mashing does not work against even a mediocre player.

That is my mvc2 and 3 pet peeve.