Tech The Stock Market Returns: Post Final Round Edition

[Phosferrax]

I don't see how people accept "Bird Lao" as gospel after it is laid out as a general strategy of control space with JK DK and condintion your opponent to block and not press buttons and when this is refuted the rebuttals are always "you don't understand until you play me/Foxy/some person" and this is accepted as a totally valid talking point.

Yet, when a similar, more logical argument is applied to Reptile in the fact that he gets to do things he wants by controlling space and keeping the opponent from moving/pressing a button, its unfounded and "too vague" and generic. Same with saying Chris G gets away with it for no reason.

Because you can compare the risk/reward of things to different characters, but when a character like Reptile functions so differently more is needed then 'he makes you block' when he doesn't have nearly as much to gain from it as Kung Lao.

 

[Big Pampering]

reptile dash isnt about the damage imo. its about making your opponent respect your 6 frame dash, so it will open up your options because they dont want to get hit by a dash, very similar to kung lao every time he finishes his string he makes the opponent scared to poke because he can do the spin, the spin allows him to continue pressure even though his strings are all high or special mid.

a dash on hit is 11% + knockdown for a forceball setup, the setup will get you chip and if the opponent falls for the setup they get hit by a combo again. yes the dash is punishable on block but it has a good reward on hit.

also I see reptile players use ex dash knowing it will get blocked and then they proceed to get mad if they get poked in between the ex dash. the ex dash imo isnt worth the bar unless in the corner where you can get a combo off of it. ex slow forceball is a much better use of meter.

he doesnt have to be able to dash up after a d4 on hit because he has d4 into green hand which is a move a lot of people wish they had.

d4 into another d4, d4 greenhand, d4 grab is more than enough options. I as a kung lao player cant make guaranteed use of a d4 on hit because I dont have a mid a problem similar to reptile but I have never downplayed the options I DO have with my d4.

reptile does have problems against certain characters but its stupid to say his tools aren't good because the main problems are matchup specific and they arent nearly as bad as the matchup problems a lot of people have with kenshi.

 

[Phosferrax]

reptile dash isnt about the damage imo. its about making your opponent respect your 6 frame dash, so it will open up your options because they dont want to get hit by a dash, very similar to kung lao every time he finishes his string he makes the opponent scared to poke because he can do the spin, the spin allows him to continue pressure even though his strings are all high or special mid.

a dash on hit is 11% + knockdown for a forceball setup, the setup will get you chip and if the opponent falls for the setup they get hit by a combo again. yes the dash is punishable on block but it has a good reward on hit.

also I see reptile players use ex dash knowing it will get blocked and then they proceed to get mad if they get poked in between the ex dash. the ex dash imo isnt worth the bar unless in the corner where you can get a combo off of it. ex slow forceball is a much better use of meter.

he doesnt have to be able to dash up after a d4 on hit because he has d4 into green hand which is a move a lot of people wish they had.

d4 into another d4, d4 greenhand, d4 grab is more than enough options. I as a kung lao player cant make guaranteed use of a d4 on hit because I dont have a mid a problem similar to reptile but I have never downplayed the options I DO have with my d4.

reptile does have problems against certain characters but its stupid to say his tools aren't good because the main problems are matchup specific and they arent nearly as bad as the matchup problems a lot of people have with kenshi.

Oh course those are all options, but a d4 acid hand leaves you in the range were his mobility is severed because he doesn't have a dash. A regular force ball gets jumped or armoured, he has ex-ball but obviously we don't have infinite meter and you've already said that ex dash isn't that good unless in the corner.

Reptile's non-meter options are very gimmicky at that range and there is always a massive risk in force ball and dash at that range. Of course risk is part of playing, but you're not going to win a tournament with dash and forceball.

 

[Cossner]

I think Cossner needs to come in here.

Spoiler

But LBSH, FR was embarrassing to watch. There are many hidden reptiles out there who are way better than ChrisGeesus, they just don't travel as much.

Reptile has a shit ton of tools, plus a lot of people have no idea how to play against him. If you play a heavy-footsie game, you're gonna get bodied. Reptile reduces the gameplay to it's simplest form. He can get in in the blink of an eye, or he can zone the shit out of you. Characters that beat reptile are the ones who fuck up his spacing and the ones that shut down his dash.
Problem is, all his normals are really slow, and his fast punisher (the only 6 frame move he has) is full combo punishable.

Also it seems that you guys don't know that the ed is only 6 frames up close, and 13 from full range.

 

[Killphil]

BUT i will not be playing injustice. lololol, i will help out with the scene, but i will not compete.

You should do comedy, because that's pretty funny.

 

[zaf]

You should do comedy, because that's pretty funny.

im being 100% serious.

 

[KingHippo]

Can you not understand that by nature ppl don't like to hit buttons and often won't because of the dash, which lets you jumpin and start dumb grab mixups? Again you're seeing damage and frames and saying the tactic is garbage but aren't applying it in a real match where quick frequent bursts of damage (which all lead to the same dumb setup) are a great deal of concern in a tourney match.

The Capcom guys are going to destroy us

 

[Phosferrax]

Can you not understand that by nature ppl don't like to hit buttons and often won't because of the dash, which lets you jumpin and start dumb grab mixups? Again you're seeing damage and frames and saying the tactic is garbage but aren't applying it in a real match where quick frequent bursts of damage (which all lead to the same dumb setup) are a great deal of concern in a tourney match.

The Capcom guys are going to destroy us

I never once said that dash is only 11%, dash is great, but you can't rely on it to win you a tournament. If you look at the strengths of it you have to look at the weakness as well. Yes it gives give good advantage and breathing space on hit, without it he'd be screwed, but when Rain or Kitana hits you for half of your life because they blocked it you start to think twice about it.

 

[RYX]

What exactly has Chris G done with Reptile?

He's free to West Coast and Hasn't beaten a top player in ages, and even then he's only done it once or twice.

Showtime, MIT and Nubcakes are much better reptiles. Only reason Chris G is mentioned as best reptile is cause he travels all the time and beats up on lesser players. LBRH

i regret this post immediately

Alright, show me what they've done in MK while not even playing or caring about it. As far as I've known, Chris has had the most success.

Not trying to rip on these guys, Nubs is probably the best Reptile I've had the pleasure of playing, but we're talking about Chris G's tournament results over the rest of the Reptile community and why he's successful. Not who's better or the best.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Can you not understand that by nature ppl don't like to hit buttons and often won't because of the dash, which lets you jumpin and start dumb grab mixups? Again you're seeing damage and frames and saying the tactic is garbage but aren't applying it in a real match where quick frequent bursts of damage (which all lead to the same dumb setup) are a great deal of concern in a tourney match.

The Capcom guys are going to destroy us

This this this this this.

Ive never seen a group of players more handicapped by their own warped interpretation of what frame data means. So many reptiles get caught up in data, and forget the on screen game.

Screw it, im picking up reptile. Hope hes ready by UFGT cuz im officially playing him now for better or worse. This character is soooo undervalued.

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Spoiler

But LBSH, FR was embarrassing to watch. There are many hidden reptiles out there who are way better than ChrisGeesus, they just don't travel as much.

Reptile has a shit ton of tools, plus a lot of people have no idea how to play against him. If you play a heavy-footsie game, you're gonna get bodied. Reptile reduces the gameplay to it's simplest form. He can get in in the blink of an eye, or he can zone the shit out of you. Characters that beat reptile are the ones who fuck up his spacing and the ones that shut down his dash.
Problem is, all his normals are really slow, and his fast punisher (the only 6 frame move he has) is full combo punishable.

Also it seems that you guys don't know that the ed is only 6 frames up close, and 13 from full range.

Am i better than Mexican zaf?

 

[Phosferrax]

This this this this this.

Ive never seen a group of players more handicapped by their own warped interpretation of what frame data means. So many reptiles get caught up in match, and not in he actual game.

Screw it, im picking up reptile. Hope hes ready by UFGT cuz im officially playing him now for better or worse. This character is soooo undervalued.

You will soon understand that it is not black and white with Reptile then.

 

[Big Pampering]

Oh course those are all options, but a d4 acid hand leaves you in the range were his mobility is severed because he doesn't have a dash. A regular force ball gets jumped or armoured, he has ex-ball but obviously we don't have infinite meter and you've already said that ex dash isn't that good unless in the corner.

Reptile's non-meter options are very gimmicky at that range and there is always a massive risk in force ball and dash at that range. Of course risk is part of playing, but you're not going to win a tournament with dash and forceball.

I wouldnt call it gimmicky, they are setups, yes you can get out of them but there are always mindgames that come into play. reptile is just a setup heavy character.

you can't jump away from forceballs if the reptile player does it properly. that is why the dash is good because you knock the opponent down which leaves you at ADVANTAGE for a forceball setup that is harder to escape.

everyone has to deal with armor, as a kung lao player I can get armored if I get in too hard even if I make the read they will not block and challenge them with the spin they can still armor out of my spin.

 

[Ninj]

It's not an argument to say "so and so is a better Reptile, he just doesn't travel."

Sorry dude, playing in tournaments in a best 2/3 with hundreds of people watching is different than casuals at your house with friends. ChrisG and Showtime are the best Reptiles as far as the tournament scene should be concerned since they show up and prove their mettle against fellow top players.

Also GGA 16 Bit and GGA Dizzy 's arguments are correct concerning Reptile - they're speaking in FG terms, not theory fighting. It's a character non-specific argument but you're treating it like Reptile is an exception, Phosferrax.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[CRUM]

GGA 16 Bit has Sektor's stock been discussed?

 

[Phosferrax]

I wouldnt call it gimmicky, they are setups, yes you can get out of them but there are always mindgames that come into play. reptile is just a setup heavy character.

you can't jump away from forceballs if the reptile player does it properly. that is why the dash is good because you knock the opponent down which leaves you at ADVANTAGE for a forceball setup that is harder to escape.

everyone has to deal with armor, as a kung lao player I can get armored if I get in too hard even if I make the read they will not block and challenge them with the spin they can still armor out of my spin.

Off a dash knockdown they can't jump out of it. But i'm talking about the footsies game, not when reptile's at his advantage after an elbow dash.

 

[Phosferrax]

It's not an argument to say "so and so is a better Reptile, he just doesn't travel."

Sorry dude, playing in tournaments in a best 2/3 with hundreds of people watching is different than casuals at your house with friends. ChrisG and Showtime are the best Reptiles as far as the tournament scene should be concerned since they show up and prove their mettle against fellow top players.

Also GGA 16 Bit and GGA Dizzy 's arguments are correct concerning Reptile - they're speaking in FG terms, not theory fighting. It's a character non-specific argument but you're treating it like Reptile is an exception, Phosferrax.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I was not arguing about Reptile as a character. I couldn't care where he places in tournaments or on the tier list, I have fun playing him. I am arguing the fact that 16 Bit comes out and says the Reptile community doesn't know the character as well as he does yet he doesn't know Reptile.

I was arguing to get some actual discussion going about the mechanics of Reptiles game play instead of the sheep on TYM hearing 16 Bit say 'dash and forceball' and THTB saying 'do stupid shit' and take it as the gospel and the answer to Reptiles problems.

As of yet King Hippo and PerfectMindGame are the only 2 to actually talk about Reptiles mechanics past 'dash and forceball' and thank christ for it.

 

[Big Pampering]

Off a dash knockdown they can't jump out of it. But i'm talking about the footsies game, not when reptile's at his advantage after an elbow dash.

thats why the dash is 6 frames and why reptile works on knockdowns imo. having that said I dont think reptile is top 10 but like 12th or something, reptile doesnt have dirt he is just good and he makes a hell of a combination if you co main him with a character like sonya.

 

[KingHippo]

Off a dash knockdown they can't jump out of it. But i'm talking about the footsies game

 

[KingHippo]

Also, just in case people are really gonna say 'what have you done for me lately'...

Chris G put out Blackula, a guy often considered a top player (Although lbsh do a ft10 online with Pig and you're a top player) not once, BUT TWICE at WB. You know how he won? By blowing up all of Blackula's anti air into full combo punish and dashing around a lot. He traded tournament wins with Cat at FR just a few days ago presumably doing the same thing. The formula WORKS, this is PROVEN, and all people wanna do is talk footsies (Which, as posted above, doesn't mean what they think it means).

 

[Phosferrax]

Also, just in case people are really gonna say 'what have you done for me lately'...

Chris G put out Blackula, a guy often considered a top player (Although lbsh do a ft10 online with Pig and you're a top player) not once, BUT TWICE at WB. You know how he won? By blowing up all of Blackula's anti air into full combo punish and dashing around a lot. He traded tournament wins with Cat at FR just a few days ago presumably doing the same thing. The formula WORKS, this is PROVEN, and all people wanna do is talk footsies (Which, as posted above, doesn't mean what they think it means).

He didn't beat CAT who I would assume has more MU experience than Blackula.

 

[Cossner]

It's not an argument to say "so and so is a better Reptile, he just doesn't travel."

Sorry dude, playing in tournaments in a best 2/3 with hundreds of people watching is different than casuals at your house with friends. ChrisG and Showtime are the best Reptiles as far as the tournament scene should be concerned since they show up and prove their mettle against fellow top players.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm talking about tournament gameplay. As in whatshername, nubcakes, joker, tl, me, etc. I still consider showtime the 2nd best, but he hasn't used reptile in a while, and if you think chris g is the best as far as the tournament scene is concerned, then you haven't even seen all the other tournament scene reptiles. And you know nothing about the character either, apparently.

 

[PPJ]

Oh course those are all options, but a d4 acid hand leaves you in the range were his mobility is severed because he doesn't have a dash.

-they block the acid hand
-opponent mashes anything besides armor
-BF2

 

[Phosferrax]

This is a good example. Obviously neither players are absolute highest level but it's a point to talk about.

Dash around like an idiot against that kind of play will get you fucked up.

 

[KingHippo]

He didn't beat CAT who I would assume has more MU experience than Blackula.

He traded wins with him man lol. Chris put him in losers and then Cat eliminated him.