General discussion Tech/Strategy/Questions

[Ares_Supreme]

you can d1 out of it online too

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

the risk reward for trying to d1 out of that really isn't worth it. Online is what it is really.

 

[Enenra]

I do win against some people just because they see me pick Scorpion and "lol Scorpion player easy win"

And then the old boy goes hard, leaving them in a state of shock and denial.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Well believe it or not a ton of people play online and its completely relevant. Also it's not that hard to escape just most characters choose to stay in block cause the string is so "fast"

 

[FrothyOmen]

No? there's input delay online; if I put my d1 in early it doesnt come out because it was too early. If I do it on time it's a crap shoot because I have no way of knowing if that 6 frame d1 is going to get out on time. That's why online is retarded; it turns what is normally a guessing game into complete trash. Frame wars are impossible.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Well my offline experience is extremely limited so I can't argue with you on the mechanics but I can say people that ONLINE keeping up with the pressure may be tough but it is certainly not impossible to avoid and I have many players, including you escape from it daily.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Scorpion Overview:

Scorpion is primarily a rushdown character, with good 50/50's and mixups from anywhere on the screen, but has all the tools to be played as a turtle. IMO, he should be played as turtle because a majority of his most punishing options are unsafe.

Pros and Cons:

+ Good normals
+ Good walk speed
+ Great Anti-Airs
+ Great Air to Air
+ Great Air Control
+ Good mixups
+ Good 50/50s
+ Huge damage output


- Most damaging options are unsafe
- Unsafe specials
- Bad wake up attacks
- average footsies
- Doesn't respond well to pressure
- Hard to build meter with specials
====================================================================================

Movement:

Spoiler

There are four forms of ground movement: forward walk, backward walk, forward dash, and backward dash.

Blocking after a forward or back dash cancels the dash. That is known as dash blocking.

Walking and dashing speeds are different for Scorpion. His forward dash is faster and covers more ground than his forward walk. While his backward walk and backward dash relatively the same. Back walking is slightly better IMO.

Jumping is faster than attacking. Jumping backward is also the fastest way to create space, but be weary because some characters can combo punish back jumps.

Scorpion's dash is average. It isn't the best, but it's far from the worst. Dashing has many uses and its most common uses are obviously to get in or get away. However, Dashing can be used to create some great offensive opportunities.

As mentioned above the dash can be canceled by blocking. Not only can dashes be canceled by blocks, but they can also be canceled into normals, pokes, and specials. This is great because it simultaneously creates space and allows you to attack. For example, If an opponent jumps at Scorpion from an uncomfortable distance, (i.e sweep distance where it's harder to anti-air) he can back dash cancel into 3, D+1, etc.

Forward dashing can be used to easily get out of a pressure situation. Blocked jip's grant the attacker good advantage and pressure. However, they can be easily avoided by simply dashing under an opponent's jump. Now you ask yourself, how is dashing under a jump creating an offensive opportunity? Well, you can use the "Auto-Correct Spear". The AC Spear is a great counter for cross ups and leads directly to Vortex setups. The command for the spear is obviously b,b,1. While your dashing under the opponent f,f, auto-corrects to b,b then if you hit 1 the spear will automatically launch.

After a string, Scorpion can buffer a dash to safely create space between he and the opponent. also, it can be combined with "gaps" to bait reactions and punish accordingly. What is a gap? a gap is an intentional hole in your offense that gives your opponent time to attack. I'll go into more detail about gaps further in the guide. For example, If Scorpion 2,1 GAP 1,1 xx takedown the opponent has a perfect opportunity to poke him after the 2,1 is block. However, if Scorpion buffers a dash after 2,1 he will be outside of said opponent's poke range but he will be able to whiff punish any poke with B+2 or F+4 from that distance. Here are a few visual examples.

Section Review:

- Dashing can be used to create space.​

- Dashing can be canceled to simultaneously create space and attack.​

- Dashing can be used to escape pressure situations.​

- Taking advantage of auto-correction can lead to a free spear.​

- Dashing can be used to create whiff punish opportunities.​

Poking:

Spoiler

Pokes are quick attacks that usually hit low, and are used to:

- Stuff the opponent's attack​

- Create distance​

- Deal safe damage​

- Apply pressure​

​

Scorpion's pokes are very unique when compared to the rest of the cast. Scorpion's pokes don't grant good enough advantage for free pressure, or he doesn't have a good special that can be canceled into for more pressure. However, his pokes work very well using defensive mechanics.

We all know by now that D+1 and D+4 are great anti-airs, but we are going to focus on ground tactics in this section. D+1 is a great tool to stuff incoming high strings. It's also good to stop gaps in your opponent's block strings. D+1 will beat out D+4 in it's startup frames.

D+4 is a great tool for creating distance. It pushes the opponent outside of sweep range on block/hit.

D+3 is pretty useless, and the more you get the feel for the character you'll find yourself using it less and less.

D+1 and D+4 can both be canceled into Takedown to frustrated the opponent and provoke jumps.

Pokes are not just low kicks and punches. You can also poke using normals, attack strings, and specials. The best strings, normals, and specials to poke with are:

Strings

- 1,1,1​

- 3,3,4​

- 2,1​

Normals

- F+4​

- B+2​

- F+3​

Specials

- Takedown​

- Hellfire​

​

It is very crucial that you study the speeds and ranges of Scorpion's normals, strings, specials, and pokes.

​

Section Review:

- Pokes should be used defensively.​

- D+1 is best used to stuff incoming offense.​

- D+3 is useless lol.​

- D+4 is best used to create distance.​

- Pokes are normals, strings, and specials.​

​

Footsies:

Spoiler

The main objective is control. Dictating the pace of the match while baiting your opponent into making mistakes and punishing them for it. My first impression of Scorpion's pokes was that they suck compared to the rest of the cast. For example, some characters can get free pressure, mixups, etc. On the other hand, footsies aren't just low pokes. While Scorpion's pokes can be used offensively, they are used best in a defensive manner. Here are a few techniques:

1). Feinting - Step into your opponent’s poke range and quickly back out instead of attacking. ( or you can switch stance ) This bait works well because it exploits your opponent's natural reactions. For example, if Scorpion steps into an opponent's max range and the opponent attacks, Scorpion can punish the recovery frames of said opponent's whiffed attack.​

​

2). Fake Out - Generally being close to your opponent's max range, and purposely whiffing a normal with fast startup/recovery to bait reactions. For example, If Scorpion is at max sweep range, and whiffs 1 and the opponent reacts with a jump in, he can anti-air with 3 xx Teleport. There are also normals that mimic the startup animations of special moves. The startup animations for 2 and Spear are similar. It can easily fool an opponent in certain situations.​

Spacing:

Spoiler

Spacing is a crucial element into having a good footsie game. Knowing the correct spacing can be the difference in you being the punisher and being punished. Study not only the spacing of your normals, pokes, attack strings, and combos, but also study your opponents spacing too.

It's also noteworthy that attack strings have different spacing on block/hit. For example, Scorpion's 1,1,1 string leaves the opponent at close range on hit. However, on block, 1,1,1 leaves the opponent at sweep distance.

You can also create space. Even though 1,1,1 on block pushes the opponent into sweep range, you can always buffer a back dash to create even more space. Doing so will always leave you at a comfortable range to make good reads.

Wake-Up Game:

 

[fr stack]

nice post man im at the same stage myself without knowledge of the basics , im gonna work on that dash buffering seems like it could be very effective as a saibot player

 

[GamerBlake90]

With Scorpion, he excels if you succeed in making your opponent jump. He's got all kinds of anti-air options, be it the anti-air spear, anti-air teleport, anti-air standing 2, anti-air d1...get where I'm going with this?

Utilizing the Hellfire is an excellent way of making them jump. The EX Hellfire will also catch them if they do jump, but only if they are just leaving the ground. If they are high enough in the air, even the EX Hellfire will not reach.

If you station yourself at a distance and make good use of the above options, you will be very difficult to approach. This I can assure you of, as I play Scorpion myself and I'm somewhat decent at turtling with him.

 

[RampaginDragon]

I do see runaway Scorps quite often actually. I think its becasue hes good at capitalizing on any little mistakes that are made.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

nice post man im at the same stage myself without knowledge of the basics , im gonna work on that dash buffering seems like it could be very effective as a saibot player

B1 possibilities? :3

Excellent video. The Scorpion forums have the most guides, eh?

 

[Altaire]

It's another way to play Scorpion and it can work if you have good reactions for AA spear or EX Spear but Scorpion won't be building as much meter with this playstyle.

Except it's really not, because all you have to do is eat two hellfires and you're up in his face. Slips himself has said this, very openly.

Scorpion is a counter-zoner. He excels against characters that try to sling projectiles, and he struggles with rushdown characters who have better footsie tools. He fits a very specific niche. You can't play keepaway Scorpion and still win matches unless your opponent insists on trying to zone you, and for anyone who has other options (see also: Almost all of the best zoners), there's really no point in giving that to him.

 

[ryublaze]

Except it's really not, because all you have to do is eat two hellfires and you're up in his face. Slips himself has said this, very openly.

Scorpion is a counter-zoner. He excels against characters that try to sling projectiles, and he struggles with rushdown characters who have better footsie tools. He fits a very specific niche. You can't play keepaway Scorpion and still win matches unless your opponent insists on trying to zone you, and for anyone who has other options (see also: Almost all of the best zoners), there's really no point in giving that to him.

It is another way to play Scorpion. Scorpion can keep the opponent away with Throw, Air Throw, D4, and even EX Teleport (on hit). I'm not saying it's the best way to play him, but it can still work depending on the matchup and situation.

and eating 2 hellfires means eating 16% damage

 

[OutworldKeith]

B1 possibilities? :3

Excellent video. The Scorpion forums have the most guides, eh?

Do you guys think I should eventually pack all my info into a video? You know for the people you dont like to read lol

 

[Altaire]

It is another way to play Scorpion. Scorpion can keep the opponent away with Throw, Air Throw, D4, and even EX Teleport (on hit). I'm not saying it's the best way to play him, but it can still work depending on the matchup and situation.

Oh boy, theory fighting at its finest.

First off, Scorpion is not keeping out anyone with a grab. He has NO footsie tools to supplement it. A character like Sektor or Ermac can get away with dash up grab because they have specials that can commit your opponent to blocking on approach, but Scorpion really has no safe way of doing this to you. At best, he has D4 takedown and F4 takedown, both of which leave him right up in your face at -4, where you have to respect a poke followup. Committing to that basically sets yourself up for an attack and grab mixup. Suffice to say, neither of these is a compelling poke tool.

Better yet, air throw? Why is Scorpion trying to "keep the opponent away" with his air throw? Either you're suggesting that you should AA with it, or that you should just jump at your opponent in an attempt to air throw them, neither of which is even remotely sensible. Scorpion's best AA options are standing 1, D1 and B2. If he absolutely needs the consistency, he can just uppercut. There is no reason to be using his air throw outside of combos, or jumpkick air throw.

Here's a great one: His D4. What are you going to accomplish by playing keepaway with this? It's ZERO on hit. Scorpion mains constantly complain about this, and I can't blame them. It has decent speed and great reach, but he's not establishing anything with a D4. At best, he's just momentarily stalling his opponent or interrupting one action, but no one save for Mileena and Sonya can use their D4s as a significant footsie tool. Those characters have D4s with decent hit advantage, and much more generous hitboxes. EX teleport doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either. Unless you really cannot afford to eat a hellfire, there is just NO reason to jump against Scorpion from that distance.

Bottom line: NONE of this works. I can't think of a single decent character this would even be effective against. Rushdown characters like Cage, Sonya and Liu Kang give him trouble. Zoners like Kabal, Kitana, Kenshi, Cyrax, Mileena, Reptile and Sektor can beat Scorpion by rushing him down. I wouldn't even be surprised if Freddy could. In fact, name me more than three or four characters this can be effective against, with your arguments for each. I can't see this working on anyone outside the bottom tier, in which case it isn't effective because it's a sound strategy; it's effective because your opponent's character just isn't good enough to exploit the holes in it.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

Do you guys think I should eventually pack all my info into a video? You know for the people you dont like to read lol

just do a voiceover, with sexy girls dancing in the foreground.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

I recently picked up Scorpion, and have been playing a runaway style with him. Let me tell you....I've had an awful success rate. Got babied like 5 times in a row by Death, and I believe by Milky Situation too.

Don't think this playstyle is viable unless you know how to switch it up (i.e. don't JUST play runaway). I know KARS does this, and it works pretty well for him.

 

[Enenra]

I recently picked up Scorpion, and have been playing a runaway style with him. Let me tell you....I've had an awful success rate. Got babied like 5 times in a row by Death, and I believe by Milky Situation too.

Don't think this playstyle is viable unless you know how to switch it up (i.e. don't JUST play runaway). I know KARS does this, and it works pretty well for him.

I really did try it... and with similar results. Glad I'm not the only one.

It's ok, I moved to Reptile anyway

 

[ryublaze]

essay

He can mix grab after his vortex or void or during 1, 1 pressure. Why would you be doing takedown when you're trying to keep away? Unless you're doing EX Takedown when you know it'll hit.

I never said you should anti-air with air throw. I use air throw in combos.

His D4 pushes the opponent away. Frame advantage doesn't matter much if you're trying to keep the opponent away.

Like I said, it can work depending on the matchup. Sub-Zero has a hard time getting in unless he can make a good read on Hellfire. You won't be pressuring Sonya so I find it better to keep her away. You can also keep Liu Kang away since his only advancing move is EX Flying Kick and you can trade Hellfires with his Fireballs.

EDIT: I take that back. Sub-Zero doesn't have that hard of a time getting in. I must have been thinking too much about his dash nerf.

And then there are the situations: Cage and Kano with full meter. It's better to keep them at fullscreen than pressure them because of their X-Rays.

I've also played with Slips a couple of times and he does use this playstyle but not too often. It depended on the matchup and situation.

If I'm not mistaking, I think you're just trying pick another argument with me. I suggest you stop before you get humiliated again.

 

[Altaire]

He can mix grab after his vortex or void or during 1, 1 pressure. Why would you be doing takedown when you're trying to keep away? Unless you're doing EX Takedown when you know it'll hit.

I never said you should anti-air with air throw. I use air throw in combos.

His D4 pushes the opponent away. Frame advantage doesn't matter much if you're trying to keep the opponent away.

Like I said, it can work depending on the matchup. Sub-Zero has a hard time getting in unless he can make a good read on Hellfire. You won't be pressuring Sonya so I find it better to keep her away. You can also keep Liu Kang away since his only advancing move is EX Flying Kick and you can trade Hellfires with his Fireballs.

And then there are the situations: Cage and Kano with full meter. It's better to keep them at fullscreen than pressure them because of their X-Rays.

I've also played with Slips a couple of times and he does use this playstyle but not too often. It depended on the matchup and situation.

If I'm not mistaking, I think you're just trying pick another argument with me. I suggest you stop before you get humiliated again.

I say again: Theory fighting at its finest.

Cool, his D4 pushes people away. It's also 12 frames, and 0 on hit. You are NOT going to be keeping people away with that, because in the 12 frames it takes you to do multiple D4s, they can easily dash in and D1 or D3 you into advantage. You can also get blown up really badly for whiffing a D4. Kitana can punish it with F2 1, Sektor can B3 4, Cage can F3, Liu Kang can B3 1 2, Reptile can dash, Kung Lao can roll, the list goes on. Good luck using that as the staple of your keepaway game.

You didn't specify what the air throw is used for, so that's your own damn fault. You said Scorpion can play keepaway, and you just said "air throw", by itself. Ending combos in air throw isn't going to make a big difference, and his BnB off F4, 3 3 spear or 1 1 spear should end in an air throw to begin with. Pushback alone is not going to keep you out for long. It works for a character like Kenshi because, y'know, he has actual zoning tools.

"Sub-Zero has a hard time getting in"? What are you basing that on, DragonPick's Sub? After Scorpion HITS with a D4, Scorpion can dash in and D4 him, because he recovers at zero and his D4 is 8 frames. It's also +10 on hit, meaning he has enough advantage to dash up and pressure Scorpion when he does. EVEN IF IT'S BLOCKED, Scorpion's only way to stop a followup D4 is to D1 or D3, both of which are negative on hit against crouching opponents. If you D1 or D3 Sub, you have to respect a D4 followup, in which case you're committed to blocking and he can just throw you. If you don't respect the D4 followup, he can hit you with the D4 and use the advantage for a guaranteed 2 1, and once you respect THAT, he's getting another opportunity for a throw. Please, enlighten me as to how this keepaway strategy is working against Sub-Zero.

"Liu Kang's only advancing move is flying kick"? Are you for real? F1 2 is one of the best strings in the game for closing space, and even B3 1 2, his go-to combo starter, is pretty damn good at it. He has NO problem closing the gap against Scorpion, and as I said earlier, he can easily punish a whiffed D4. No character in this game gets away with whiffing a D4 in high level play, not if it's baited. Better yet, "you can trade hellfires with his fireballs"? Why would you even try to do this unless you have absolutely no meter whatsoever? You could just EX spear and combo on reaction, something Slips does quite often (then again, so does any half-assed decent Scorpion). He also uses takedown as a footsie tool, by the way, if only because it's all Scorpion really has. You were saying?

"Cage and Kano at fullscreen"? Man, this just gets better and better as it goes on. Kano this MIGHT work on, though I still don't see it being overly effective and Scorpion really has no way to punish the upball. I don't even know if Scorpion can reliably EX spear through Kano's knives with how fast the recovery is, and I don't see the hellfire being a huge deterrent. If it works on Kano, big whoop, it works on a low-tier character that nobody plays. CAGE, however, it will not work on. He really has no problem getting up in Scorpion's face, and once he's there, you can't do shit. D4 is not going to keep him out; ask Slips how Dizzy deals with this. Good luck keeping him out reliably with 1 1 throw too, because a good Cage doesn't make it easy for anyone to start their offense (especially not with a 12 frame jab).

I've also played Slips. He doesn't play a "keepaway Scorpion". There's a difference between turtling in the neutral game to wait for your opponent's move, and actively playing keepaway. Kenshi can play keepaway. Kabal can play keepaway. Freddy can play keepaway. Smoke can play keepaway. Scorpion CAN NOT PLAY KEEPAWAY at the highest level, and if he can, it's only against the worst characters in the game. I can't think of a single "good" character he could actively turtle against, and I'm still waiting for you to show me an example of someone who loses to this.

You have no idea how much I lol'd at this part, though:

If I'm not mistaking, I think you're just trying pick another argument with me. I suggest you stop before you get humiliated again.

The only thing you're "mistaken"on is your grammar. You telling me to stop before I get humiliated again is the most laughably self-important shit I've ever heard. OH NO, PRETENTIOUS TEENAGER, PLEASE DON'T HUMILIATE ME ON AN INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD! It would have such a drastic impact on my job and my social setting if you did that!

 

[rev0lver]

And this completes another novel by Altaire.

 

[SunnyD]

My god Altaire, you have absolutely no mercy do you

 

[Altaire]

And this completes another novel by Altaire.

All in a day's work.

 

[Altaire]

My god Altaire, you have absolutely no mercy do you

For someone who's so pretentious as to facetiously caution against "humiliating myself", in a debate about a character I don't even main, I have none whatsoever.

 

[ryublaze]

Essay #2

Multiple D4s...no all it takes is one D4 on hit or block to keep the opponent from advancing. If you're whiffing a D4, then you must be throwing it out there for no reason. D4's range is pretty long so I don't see it whiffing unless you're opponent jumps or is far away.

You assumed that I was talking about Air Throw as an anti-air. Not my fault.

Sub-Zero's one of the characters where you don't need a D4. D4 actually can backfire if you hit a clone.

Liu Kang: I'm talking about fullscreen where he'd only be able to advance by flying kick or dash blocking. If your opponent is trying to close the gap with a normal from sweep distance, you can also whiff punish that or EX Spear or back dash spear. It really depends on your reactions. EX Spear countering his projectiles is an option, but if you don't want to use meter and you want to get 16% off each trade then you can use Hellfire.

Does tier placement really matters? I already said that keepaway can work depending on the matchup. IIRC I remember a post saying that Scorpion can punish up ball with D1, teleport but I haven't tested myself. Again with Cage, I said it depends on the situation. What else are you going to do if he has full meter? If you go on offense you're going to be risking being parried by his X-Ray.

And I guess you never learn. It's always me you tend to pick fights with (and others too). You could have easily responded to my post without putting me down or making me look like an idiot. You could have not started a ruckus about me making front page with Skarlet. You could just well maybe ignore me but you always seem to be the one to start something. I ask again, please stop.