MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[D_Matt_Ma]

Or... we just make his spin hit high. Am I the only one supporting this change? It doesn't affect his combo ability, but only his wake-up counter ability.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Or... we just make his spin hit high. Am I the only one supporting this change? It doesn't affect his combo ability, but only his wake-up counter ability.

I haven't even thought about that tbh. I don't think it would be the ideal solution though.

edit: nvm lol.

 

[dookieagain]

Or... we just make his spin hit high. Am I the only one supporting this change? It doesn't affect his combo ability, but only his wake-up counter ability.

This would be a huge nerf. It would fundamentally alter the usefulness of the move. Frankly it's much much more feasible to add a few frames of recovery which really wouldn't change the balance of the character at all.

Think about it this way. Adding a few frames of recovery mean the low tier can now punish a blocked Spin. Which is something you should hope doesn't happen anyway. At most this changes his matchups against the bottom 1/3 of the cast from 8-2s and 9-1s to 6-4s and 7-3s. Hardly crushing odds.

Meanwhile altering the fundamental characteristic of the move means suddenly Kung has a different wakeup game, and different matchups against any character with good lows, which includes a lot of matches against the top tier.

 

[oZii]

Of course there are a few characters in SF that have relatively safe specials on block that could somewhat relate to Kung Lao, Johnny Cage or Cyber Sub.

Yea I know there are some unpunishable moves in SF just not any that lead to the Type of damage Kung has with spin the risk reward part. Thats more specifically what I was referring to not so much the punishment part.

The difference?

-Blanka isn't top tier
-Beast Roll doesn't lead to 30% combos
-Every character can counter hit Beast Roll on reaction with a simple jab or jb.roudhouse from midscreen so people can't get away just with Beast Roll spamming.

Basically this

So the way I see it, there's two basic solutions to this kind of problem:

1. Increase Spin's recovery on block (a few frames)

and/or:

2. Reduce start up frames of every character's BnB that can't punish Kung Lao in time.

And this.

Edit after watching the Save Point Tournament Stream Play-N-Trade:

That tournament was dominated by Kung Lao, Reptile, Ermac, Raiden, Night Wolf and Counter Picks to Kung Lao which usually resulted in Picks of Kung Lao.

Basically Top Tier characters. Now I am not saying that other characters can't win tournaments Tom won with Sub-Zero. It is just looking like really quickly that tournaments will turn into nothing but Top Tier characters. Sure Sonya might show up or Cyrax might show up but those are considered possible Top Characters right now.

You can point to the Sentinel issue in MvC3 but he got nerfed in health (capcom says they planned that before the game shipped anyway) Sentinel is still viable and still used. Its not like there was 1 move that made sentinel seem almost unbeatable it was armor, drones, his damage and his life all rolled to one package. adjusting his health still didnt make him easy to beat just made him not head and shoulders above the rest of the cast. I just dont see how adjusting the spin for punish by all the cast will make kung weak. the move will still be good regardless cause it will have the same properties when its active just not the same recovery.

 

[Dandy J]

So now I'm hearing about Cyrax's bomb trap being taken out. I don't disagree with changing the bomb trap, but I'm worried about how they are changing it. It's really fun to do, so it'd be since if they kept it and just made it more fair, like making the grab do 0 damage and letting the damage come from the setup. The normal combo only does 25% if you take the 2,2 in the air anyway. But I'm betting they will just not let Cyrax throw a bomb during the stun, which means its back to boring ol jump-in pressure.

NRS please don't take fun stuff out

 

[oZii]

So now I'm hearing about Cyrax's bomb trap being taken out. I don't disagree with changing the bomb trap, but I'm worried about how they are changing it. It's really fun to do, so it'd be since if they kept it and just made it more fair, like making the grab do 0 damage and letting the damage come from the setup. The normal combo only does 25% if you take the 2,2 in the air anyway. But I'm betting they will just not let Cyrax throw a bomb during the stun, which means its back to boring ol jump-in pressure.

NRS please don't take fun stuff out

Isn't it almost impossible to get out of unless with a breaker or eating the 2,2 if you try to jump out?

 

[Juggs]

So now I'm hearing about Cyrax's bomb trap being taken out. I don't disagree with changing the bomb trap, but I'm worried about how they are changing it. It's really fun to do, so it'd be since if they kept it and just made it more fair, like making the grab do 0 damage and letting the damage come from the setup. The normal combo only does 25% if you take the 2,2 in the air anyway. But I'm betting they will just not let Cyrax throw a bomb during the stun, which means its back to boring ol jump-in pressure.

NRS please don't take fun stuff out

Well, you can't make the grab do zero damage. I don't think it should be taken out either. It's what makes Cyrax dangerous up close.

 

[Dandy J]

Basically, yes, you have to use an x-ray or armor move before the 2,2. It's definitely dumb and should be changed, I'm just saying that I'm worried they will change it in a really boring way, because there's a 99% chance they will. That's why I suggested 0 damage for the grab or some other solution. 25% non-guaranteed, breakable damage from a grab isn't so bad for the 'zangief of mk9' is it? Heh. Oh well, I can dream. I know in a week I'll be doing safe jumps off his grab.

 

[Action Kungfu]

So now I'm hearing about Cyrax's bomb trap being taken out. I don't disagree with changing the bomb trap, but I'm worried about how they are changing it. It's really fun to do, so it'd be since if they kept it and just made it more fair, like making the grab do 0 damage and letting the damage come from the setup. The normal combo only does 25% if you take the 2,2 in the air anyway. But I'm betting they will just not let Cyrax throw a bomb during the stun, which means its back to boring ol jump-in pressure.

NRS please don't take fun stuff out

Stuff like this is why I think people fear nerfs and adjustments in the first place.

It reminds of movies like Bedazzled, dude made a deal with the devil and got some wishes and each wish was completely messed up barely resembled what was wished for.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Vulcan Hades: I've entered over 20 SSF4 tourneys. I used Honda. I don't know what else to say, I've already made my points but obviously I have to be super careful w/SF references, so nevermind.


Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree w/some of the top players here that the Spin is fine. I saw the spin was good immediately when the game came out. One of my friends I play w/decided that KL is cheap and he was going to use him. At first, I was not punishing the spin, but that's because I wasn't respecting it. When I started LOOKING for the spin, I was punishing it badly.

Since I'm married with a kid on the way, I can't practice the way I used to, so besides me playing once a week, I hop on training mode, put the AI on hard vs KL and go to work for about 2 hours a night. CPU is random as shit and when it throws it out, I try to punish. It helps me when I do play once a week cause now I am punishing it on reaction. I don't think I have superior skills or great reflexes, it's just muscle memory now. It does have it's own unique animation, you just have to get used to seeing it. What's odd is sometimes I block Raiden's superman and just stare at him, yet I rarely miss a punish on spin.

I hope I explained it better now cause I can't get more clear than that

 

[RoGE]

NRS please don't take fun stuff out

Agreed, please don't water down the game.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Nori is a family man now! Congrats.

Raiden is godlike, literally. That gives him +infinite frame advantage.

 

[Aluscardum]

I think nerfing or buffing anything at this point is a little bit premature.

The trend in this thread (so far) is something like:

Chicken Little: "OMG, this is broken, the sky is falling!"
Kompetitive players: "Nah, we figured this out."

I think spending more time with the game is something everyone needs to do. After that, we can start having these types of conversations. Not every match up is going to be 50/50; the only way that could ever happen is if every character was the very same.

 

[dookieagain]

I think nerfing or buffing anything at this point is a little bit premature.

The trend in this thread (so far) is something like:

Chicken Little: "OMG, this is broken, the sky is falling!"
Kompetitive players: "Nah, we figured this out."

I think spending more time with the game is something everyone needs to do. After that, we can start having these types of conversations. Not every match up is going to be 50/50; the only way that could ever happen is if every character was the very same.

I don't think every character should have 5/5s down the board,
but I do think there shouldn't be 8-2s and 9-1s. Which when you have moves that lead to insane damage and can't be punished by a full 1/3 of the cast is what you get. I'm not calling for a nerf in the utility of a move just equivalence for the bottom tier in their options for dealing with it. It wouldn't change any of the top 10 matchups at all since their punishes already work.

 

[Monster Planet]

Considering the overwhelming amount of agreeance on a few staple topics, I find it to be a great time to start changes (early.) That way further balance can manifest down the pipe sooner. I've always liked this mentality, and--inserting off-topic relation:--that's one reasons League of Legends has become such a prolific, competitive, PC game (constant feedback and tweaks.)

Also, to a few of the "play more and deal with it" group, NRS probably plays the game a lot more collectively than you or I combined; don't worry your little heads off.

 

[Action Kungfu]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree w/some of the top players here that the Spin is fine. I saw the spin was good immediately when the game came out. One of my friends I play w/decided that KL is cheap and he was going to use him. At first, I was not punishing the spin, but that's because I wasn't respecting it. When I started LOOKING for the spin, I was punishing it badly.

Since I'm married with a kid on the way, I can't practice the way I used to, so besides me playing once a week, I hop on training mode, put the AI on hard vs KL and go to work for about 2 hours a night. CPU is random as shit and when it throws it out, I try to punish. It helps me when I do play once a week cause now I am punishing it on reaction. I don't think I have superior skills or great reflexes, it's just muscle memory now. It does have it's own unique animation, you just have to get used to seeing it. What's odd is sometimes I block Raiden's superman and just stare at him, yet I rarely miss a punish on spin.

I hope I explained it better now cause I can't get more clear than that

It's clear, I just don't agree with anything you said as far as the points of discussion are concerned is all. Even with how you worded some things.

With that said though, congrats to you and yours with the starting of a family, man.

 

[Monster Planet]

This thread is spinning out of control. No wonder ppl hate talking about tiers early.

Sorry, hard to resist.

 

[REO]

So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.

 

[DaiHuu]

So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.

That's not even a nerf bat, that's like a nerf bazooka. What the buddha. o.0

 

[dookieagain]

So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.

Wow that's pretty awful. I'd rather not see changes like that. I wanted to see a change to the recovery to make it punishable by the whole cast, but a damage reduction to that degree is really absurd. Honestly it makes me worried about the future of the game if they're changing that much.

 

[Arcade-Fever]

So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.

Is a bit silly discarding a character only for damage output reduction, damage isn't anything, if Kung Lao still retain his impossible to read game, consistent pressure string and a practical combo damage output around 35% or 40% he will still be a beast, heck 34% still means he can kill you in 3 mistakes easily, unlike other characters.

 

[DrDogg]

I'm a bit disappointed to see Kung nerfed this early. I really like his rushdown game, but he's not broken. If anything, just make Spin a little easier to punish for the people crying about it. It won't really change how Kung is played at high levels, but it will make the people wanting him nerfed to shut up a bit.

Now buff Jax please. 6 frame ground pound that's linkable after air throw and cancelable (like the EX version), unblockable Gotcha Grab, and an EX Dash Punch that launches. It's time for a new top tier since Kung Lao is done for. ^_^

 

[Vulcan Hades]

So to resume: Kung Lao, Ermac, Smoke and Cyrax are getting nerfed big time. Kano gets buffed. But Baraka, Sheeva, Quan Chi and Jax get nothing..

I kinda agree with Cyrax and Ermac's nerfs. Kung Lao and Smoke were a bit uncalled for and just too much imo. Kano didn't even need those buffs tbh. And Baraka, admittedly the worst character in the game, gets absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. Not even 1/2% damage buff. NRS really wants Baraka to be the new Dan I think.

 

[Sequel]

I'm a bit disappointed to see Kung nerfed this early. I really like his rushdown game, but he's not broken. If anything, just make Spin a little easier to punish for the people crying about it. It won't really change how Kung is played at high levels, but it will make the people wanting him nerfed to shut up a bit.

Now buff Jax please. 6 frame ground pound that's linkable after air throw and cancelable (like the EX version), unblockable Gotcha Grab, and an EX Dash Punch that launches. It's time for a new top tier since Kung Lao is done for. ^_^

QFT.

 

[DanCock]

So after talking to Tom today he told me in the next patch Kung Lao is getting nerfed. He's getting a damage reduction off everything(off spin he's gonna get 18% instead of 28%, etc.), low hat is getting nerfed as well, so peace out to his pressure game. I know I'm definitely not gonna be using the new (boring) Kung.

Who's next?

Let's start with Reptile.

this is a perfect patch for kung, if true. he will still be good but not ridiculous like now... these are the 2 things i bitched about Lao the most. the stagger after low hat is stupid and his risk reward with spin was insane..


all i ask for sindel is her scream to be useful like in the pre 1st patch build.. CROSSES fingers..