MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[LEGEND]

I personally think Omni is solid, but there are a few issues I see. He is quite straight-forward and linear, so he can be predictable in a sense. He is also a bit more kameo-dependent than the average character, though I do think he meshes quite well with Jax, Sonya, and Kung Lao. Finally, I haven't reviewed the frame data recently, but some of his normals are a bit slow/sluggish. Ultimately, I think he's somewhere between mid tier and maybe upper mid.

I can get behind that.

Not sure on the Kameo options other than Mavado though, as I haven't really seen the Jax or Sonya parings. Mavado being an "auto confirm" off of everything Omni-man does feels very strong. Armor, clap, his 12-frame mid B12, 222 string. . . all lead to full combo on hit. F3 Jails into the +9 on block mavado hit-grab. Speaking of that, its a great tool to disrupt keep-away. One hit (usually on someone backing away or starting to throw a projectile) and Omni-man is back right on top of you.

Linear and predictable, Kameo dependent and lacking any true mix-ups are the negative marks I'd give him.

 

[M2Dave]

Her normals are kinda sub standard but that's only when compared directly to characters that are meant to rush down.

But which character, aside from pre-patch Peacemaker, was top tier and lacked oppressive normal attacks and exceptional rush down?

Having access to great footsies and mix ups has been the meta since day one, and Sektor has neither.

What are Sektor's offensive options anyway? No plus frames. No launching throw. No legitimate 50/50 mix up because the overhead is 24F. No hard-to-blockable setups.

So, she arguably has the best zoning and screen control, which is irrelevant because this game is not Injustice. LOL.

Forget characters like Homelander, Kenshi, and Sindel. Even a character like Reiko seems far better than Sektor to me. Perhaps Kitana is as well.

And imo she is hard locked into Mavado Kameo.

Why is Mavado better than Motaro?

 

[LEGEND]

But which character, aside from pre-patch Peacemaker, was top tier and lacked oppressive normal attacks and exceptional rush down?

Having access to great footsies and mix ups has been the meta since day one, and Sektor has neither.

What are Sektor's offensive options anyway? No plus frames. No launching throw. No legitimate 50/50 mix up because the overhead is 24F. No hard-to-blockable setups.

So, she arguably has the best zoning and screen control, which is irrelevant because this game is not Injustice. LOL.

Forget characters like Homelander, Kenshi, and Sindel. Even a character like Reiko seems far better than Sektor to me. Perhaps Kitana is as well.



Why is Mavado better than Motaro?

Conversions off of projectiles. 30% every time.

Still get combos from armor / wiff punish flamethrower. Turns other small hits into combos as well, like a jump kick after an air dash, easy confirm. Sektor's main strength is being able to play like a lunatic but still be mostly safe and converting off of everything. Zoning is just layer 1.

I still don't think she's in the top 5 conversation (HL, Scorp, Sindel, Havik, Nitara imo) but she's hella good.

Edit: I meant to only quote your last line (on mobile). But I'll add that I'm a huge Reiko up-player and think he's probably better as well.

 

[wsj515]

No legitimate 50/50 mix up because the overhead is 24F.

 

[LEGEND]

I actually agree with Dave there. For the most part the mental stack isn't crazy enough for 24 frames to catch a good player. Online makes it much more difficult to deal with though

 

[wsj515]

I actually agree with Dave there. For the most part the mental stack isn't crazy enough for 24 frames to catch a good player. Online makes it much more difficult to deal with though

We've been through this before, there is no player that's consistently reacting to a 24f OH, it's just not happening. Not Sonic, not the Chileans, no one.

I'll let @SaltShaker copy/paste the whole Nightwing Injustice 1 situation if he's keen to get into this again lmao.

 

[Eji1700]

We've been through this before, there is no player that's consistently reacting to a 24f OH, it's just not happening. Not Sonic, not the Chileans, no one.

I'll let @SaltShaker copy/paste the whole Nightwing Injustice 1 situation if he's keen to get into this again lmao.

Do you not play other fighting games?

24 is on the edge but yeah depending on the animation it’s very much within human reaction times

 

[Eldriken]

Do you not play other fighting games?

24 is on the edge but yeah depending on the animation it’s very much within human reaction times

It is within human reaction times, but what he's saying is that no one is going to consistently react to it because there are other things to be looking out for. While the mental stack isn't massive, it's still there and will do what it does to everyone: make you fuck up.

 

[LEGEND]

We've been through this before, there is no player that's consistently reacting to a 24f OH, it's just not happening. Not Sonic, not the Chileans, no one.

I'll let @SaltShaker copy/paste the whole Nightwing Injustice 1 situation if he's keen to get into this again lmao.

I'm fairly certain that Nightwing's staff overhead was much faster than 24 frames. Mind you that in game frame data was way off, and still is in NRS games because they count the first active frames of 3D hit boxes. Shit like GL's overhead was listed at 19 frames iirc even though it didn't reach a ducking opponent unlike like, frame 25 or something, If GL'S overhead wasn't reactable he'd be busted).

Anyway. This topic has been beat to death elsewhere. Mental stack is the only thing that's going to make 24 frames a problem. No human is going to do anything 100% every time so idk if that's what you are getting at

 

[M2Dave]

I still don't think she's in the top 5 conversation (HL, Scorp, Sindel, Havik, Nitara imo) but she's hella good.

I doubt that she is in the top 10-15 conversation, much less top 5.

Again, take a character like Reiko who has been considered barely outside the top tier for a long time.

He has a safe, fast overhead attack. He has moves and strings that are plus on block (i.e., b+4, 2,1, and b+2). He has a launching high command throw.

He has exceptional low pokes and whiff punishment.

He arguably still has the best and most versatile projectile in the game in terms of its use in zoning, in footsies, in block strings, versus armor and ice armor, etc.

Sektor lacks such meta-defining tools, which is why she is being overrated.

Besides, when was the last time that anyone saw Sonic Fox lose 8:2 with any character? LOL.

The overhead being a part of some type of mental stack is nonsense. Tweedy said that the overhead is reactable but can catch opponents trying to micro duck, which is accurate from my experience thus far.

 

[Vulgar]

So why don't you just start grabbing once they're "reacting" to your overhead? Or just shimmy and then do it?

It's not a true 50/50, but it is an option.

And besides, Sektor is a very mobile character. I think her zoning is quite good, but it's still early and people are figuring out their characters.

She seems solid.

 

[kabelfritz]

It is within human reaction times, but what he's saying is that no one is going to consistently react to it because there are other things to be looking out for. While the mental stack isn't massive, it's still there and will do what it does to everyone: make you fuck up.

i cant even count how often i get hit by smokes b2(?) overhead, even though i know all the time its there. i see him slightly ducking back, try to fuzzy low/high and get hit by it.

 

[Juggs]

We've been through this before, there is no player that's consistently reacting to a 24f OH, it's just not happening. Not Sonic, not the Chileans, no one.

You’re right that this has been discussed before. It has been discussed in most fighting game communities. What you can and can’t react to. But the issue is that a lot of people just go by “pure reactions” and what a human is capable of in that regard. But there’s more factors at play that you have to take into consideration.

When we discuss “reacting” to things in FG’s, there’s almost nothing you’re purely “reacting” to. It’s always a combination of prediction and reaction as well as knowing what the startup animation looks like as well as seeing that move thousands of times. Aside from that, there’s also mental stack that needs to be taken into consideration.

With all that said, there IS a difference between blocking things in ‘hold B2B’ games and games with a ‘Block Button’. So when it comes to overheads in a FG with a block button, it’s actually easier to react to IF you’re already crouch blocking compared to a hold back to block FG. Because instead of pressing a button, you’re letting go of a button (down). And you can react a bit faster letting go of a button compared to pressing a button.

Anyway, jmcrofts goes over this in this video below. And his example game is DBFZ. He essentially says that anything with 20f+ is reactable, and surmises that 16f-19f is technically possible, but very difficult to do especially consistently. And anything 15f and below isn’t purely reactable.

 

[Vulgar]

I wish the Milla Rage blocking simulator was still around. That thing was gold in testing "reactions."

 

[wsj515]

You’re right that this has been discussed before. It has been discussed in most fighting game communities. What you can and can’t react to. But the issue is that a lot of people just go by “pure reactions” and what a human is capable of in that regard. But there’s more factors at play that you have to take into consideration.

When we discuss “reacting” to things in FG’s, there’s almost nothing you’re purely “reacting” to. It’s always a combination of prediction and reaction as well as knowing what the startup animation looks like as well as seeing that move thousands of times. Aside from that, there’s also mental stack that needs to be taken into consideration.

With all that said, there IS a difference between blocking things in ‘hold B2B’ games and games with a ‘Block Button’. So when it comes to overheads in a FG with a block button, it’s actually easier to react to IF you’re already crouch blocking compared to a hold back to block FG. Because instead of pressing a button, you’re letting go of a button (down). And you can react a bit faster letting go of a button compared to pressing a button.

Anyway, jmcrofts goes over this in this video below. And his example game is DBFZ. He essentially says that anything with 20f+ is reactable, and surmises that 16f-19f is technically possible, but very difficult to do especially consistently. And anything 15f and below isn’t purely reactable.

I'm confused, is this arguing that a 24f OH is or isn't reactable? Because everything here seems to be arguing that it isn't actually reactable. The jmcroft video shows him doing the Millia Blocker test, and when he's actually trying he's only getting a reaction time of between 22.5-27.3 frames. You said it yourself, when you add more and more to the mental stack like watching for staggers, throws, etc., you are adding additional stimuli and decision making which is going to significantly slow down your reaction time.

Reads/predictions are what make moves like this actually reactable - you make a read that they're going to do the overhead, so you hold block and wait to see the overhead, then let do of down - you are narrowing what stimuli you react to in order to actually react to it, basically creating your own momentary version of Millia Blocker. However, in this situation, you are 100% getting thrown or letting them get away with a stagger they shouldn't get away with.

Ashrah already opens people up with her f3 offline - is it a true 50/50, and can people often block it? Of course not, and they do. But it also hits way more than people give it credit, and not due to low crush situations. Sektor can and will throw the out the overhead way more than Ashrah because she'll often have way more ways to keep it safe via kameo, which means you need to look for / respect it that much more, opening up more opportunities for other options.

The overhead being a part of some type of mental stack is nonsense. Tweedy said that the overhead is reactable but can catch opponents trying to micro duck, which is accurate from my experience thus far.

If the overhead catches people trying to micro duck, then they aren't reacting to it are they? So is it reactable or not?

 

[Red Lightning]

So why don't you just start grabbing once they're "reacting" to your overhead? Or just shimmy and then do it?

It's not a true 50/50, but it is an option.

And besides, Sektor is a very mobile character. I think her zoning is quite good, but it's still early and people are figuring out their characters.

She seems solid.

I think her mobility options are really key and help her a lot. Not to mention having an armored launcher is a huge plus to blow up other characters with gaps in their strings. Adding in the option of combing off her projectile for full-screen combos, she becomes a threat in a lot of situations.

 

[SaltShaker]

We've been through this before, there is no player that's consistently reacting to a 24f OH, it's just not happening. Not Sonic, not the Chileans, no one.

I'll let @SaltShaker copy/paste the whole Nightwing Injustice 1 situation if he's keen to get into this again lmao.

Nightwing's staff OH was 22F, so almost the same. I'm just catching up on this argument now, but this has gone on for 10 years+ and still no one is actively reacting to these moves in any actual games they are in, not even Sonic himself in MK/Inj or Arslan in Tekken with Jin's "reactable" D2, or any GOAT on any game. No one took the "free money" from Saucy on Nightwing back then. Elite reaction speed in the practice room is useless, in real matches when you are looking out for 17 options at the same time, you're not reacting to that. If Liu does a fireball full screen you are reacting. If someone does a jump kick in neutral you are reacting with n AA. Good opponents will mask it and hit anyone with it throughout matches. But yea this always comes back up ever so often, only for no one to ever truly react to the moves lol.

 

[Juggs]

I'm confused, is this arguing that a 24f OH is or isn't reactable?

The last paragraph in my post you quoted should answer this question

 

[LEGEND]

I'm confused, is this arguing that a 24f OH is or isn't reactable? Because everything here seems to be arguing that it isn't actually reactable. The jmcroft video shows him doing the Millia Blocker test, and when he's actually trying he's only getting a reaction time of between 22.5-27.3 frames. You said it yourself, when you add more and more to the mental stack like watching for staggers, throws, etc., you are adding additional stimuli and decision making which is going to significantly slow down your reaction time.

Reads/predictions are what make moves like this actually reactable - you make a read that they're going to do the overhead, so you hold block and wait to see the overhead, then let do of down - you are narrowing what stimuli you react to in order to actually react to it, basically creating your own momentary version of Millia Blocker. However, in this situation, you are 100% getting thrown or letting them get away with a stagger they shouldn't get away with.

Ashrah already opens people up with her f3 offline - is it a true 50/50, and can people often block it? Of course not, and they do. But it also hits way more than people give it credit, and not due to low crush situations. Sektor can and will throw the out the overhead way more than Ashrah because she'll often have way more ways to keep it safe via kameo, which means you need to look for / respect it that much more, opening up more opportunities for other options.



If the overhead catches people trying to micro duck, then they aren't reacting to it are they? So is it reactable or not?

Imo there is simply not enough mental stack in this game for 24 frames to hit with a significant amount of frequency to call it a true low/overhead mixup. But people will get hit by it occasionally. Its up to the player to decide if their opponent is asleep at the wheel or hard locked-in scouting for something else. Not that they should be though.

24 Frames in a game like Tekken or SF6 is a more significant problem. Iirc Drive Impact is 26 frames and the best players in the world regularly get smacked by it.
-

On a different note. Does anyone know what the frame data is for throws? I know start up should be 10 frames. But wiff recovery and tech window are unknown to me.

 

[wsj515]

The last paragraph in my post you quoted should answer this question

So you're arguing that it is reactable, but your "evidence" is a video where the guy isn't consistently reacting in 24f or less, and is a fixed scenario with only 2 options and with one reaction "decision" on his side - got it.

 

[Juggs]

So you're arguing that it is reactable, but your "evidence" is a video where the guy isn't consistently reacting in 24f or less, and is a fixed scenario with only 2 options and with one reaction "decision" on his side - got it.

No. I’m just telling you what he said. And his personal reactions are irrelevant. Not sure why you have a dickhead attitude about it but aight

 

[Vulgar]

Personally, I don't think Sonic Fox not doing well in a casual set vs his training partner should be a strong indictment of a character's tier placement.

Everyone has had bad days where the person they play with all the time gets the better of them.