MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[LEGEND]

I think goo ball is way more dangerous full screen - throwing it out jump distance and closer is asking to get punished, it has 49f of recovery. And at full screen, more often than not, you can't really get a trade with goo ball again because if its bad frames - I find myself frequently needing to use sub zero armor if my opponent has successfully started their zoning.

Kenshi definitely wishes he had Cyrax's TP, but it can be punished, and other then that Kenshi has better movement, including his ridiculously good backdash which complements his better buttons. F2 and b2 are way better than anything Cyrax has. I was curious about Cyrax's b3 and this dodging of s1s - considering how stubby it is. I wasn't able to replicate any dodging of a s1 at all, unless it was a range where the s1 was already going to whiff. Further, there were ranges where a s1 would normally whiff, but it would hit Cyrax during the "dodging" startup of b3.

All this to say, a safe vortex that does 30% each rep, where the opponent guessing right doesn't leave Cyrax in a super favorable position isn't nowhere near enough to propel this character into top tier territory. She's got mk9 net-and-a-dream robbery potential, but a lot of the cast has that too, with way better all around kits.

The goo ball around jump distance is fairly risk free and restricts pressing buttons and spacing out. The threat of that random hit is quite restrictive to fight against. Again, with a bomb typically on screen to boot. If that goo ball threat starts getting people to jump or do neutral skips then you've already won.

I think your last statement is a bit out of touch. Who else has a true 50/50 vortex that can start off of any hit? And hers is meterless. "doesn't leave Cyrax in a favorable position" is kinda redundant. Yeah its not punishable by most of the cast, also yeah she can just continue to play lame after the opponent guesses right, forcing the opponent to come and and make a mistake on the way.

This is a weird argument because I think its very safe to say there are a handful of better characters. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the character and she is extremely good. Any minute downplay like "doesn't leave Cyrax in a super favorable position" when talking about guessing wrong on a 50/50 sounds crazy.

 

[Krasiox]

I think goo ball is way more dangerous full screen - throwing it out jump distance and closer is asking to get punished, it has 49f of recovery. And at full screen, more often than not, you can't really get a trade with goo ball again because if its bad frames - I find myself frequently needing to use sub zero armor if my opponent has successfully started their zoning.

Kenshi definitely wishes he had Cyrax's TP, but it can be punished, and other then that Kenshi has better movement, including his ridiculously good backdash which complements his better buttons. F2 and b2 are way better than anything Cyrax has. I was curious about Cyrax's b3 and this dodging of s1s - considering how stubby it is. I wasn't able to replicate any dodging of a s1 at all, unless it was a range where the s1 was already going to whiff. Further, there were ranges where a s1 would normally whiff, but it would hit Cyrax during the "dodging" startup of b3.

All this to say, a safe vortex that does 30% each rep, where the opponent guessing right doesn't leave Cyrax in a super favorable position isn't nowhere near enough to propel this character into top tier territory. She's got mk9 net-and-a-dream robbery potential, but a lot of the cast has that too, with way better all around kits.

Forceball doesn't go fullscreen. Zoners are always going to win the zoning game against Reptile.
I play Cyrax as well and she feels better in neutral than reptile since she has ACTUAL full screen tools + teleport + 2 of the best mids in the game + 2 armor breaking meatys and a stryke throw playstyle if needed. She is WAY better and diverse than Reptile. This is in context of the "tierlist".
What is his gameplan ? Oh forceball, oh u backdashed twice, guess let me meterburn elbow dash to get full combo punished because they backdashed again or flawles blocked. Ok let me hide behind ex forceball and approach u, oh youre one of the 20 charaters with armor launchers okay welp guess my meters gone. Oh u wanna stagger ? There are at least 10 characters with better close up buttons thata re going outmash you back to character select.

 

[wsj515]

The goo ball around jump distance is fairly risk free and restricts pressing buttons and spacing out. The threat of that random hit is quite restrictive to fight against. Again, with a bomb typically on screen to boot. If that goo ball threat starts getting people to jump or do neutral skips then you've already won.

I think your last statement is a bit out of touch. Who else has a true 50/50 vortex that can start off of any hit? And hers is meterless. "doesn't leave Cyrax in a favorable position" is kinda redundant. Yeah its not punishable by most of the cast, also yeah she can just continue to play lame after the opponent guesses right, forcing the opponent to come and and make a mistake on the way.

This is a weird argument because I think its very safe to say there are a handful of better characters. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the character and she is extremely good. Any minute downplay like "doesn't leave Cyrax in a super favorable position" when talking about guessing wrong on a 50/50 sounds crazy.

Want to remind you that I’m not trying to say the character is bad - I agree that her setplay is really strong, so that in and of itself makes her a good character. I do think she isn’t high tier though - there are actually a number of characters that have a vortex off of any touch, or just better tools generally. Off the top of my head, HL, Sindel, Kenshi all have similar or better setplay. Scorpion Ferra can also restand into Ferra mix, the list goes on.

it’s not enough to have good setplay to be a S tier character in this game. Also I just can’t agree that goo ball should have anyone scared at jump distance, if that’s something that’s changing the way you play the MU, then I’m really curious what character you’re using, because it must be something really MU specific or just a skill issue.

 

[LEGEND]

Also I just can’t agree that goo ball should have anyone scared at jump distance, if that’s something that’s changing the way you play the MU, then I’m really curious what character you’re using, because it must be something really MU specific or just a skill issue.

Your language here makes it seem like pretending it doesn't exist is optimal. Unless you think i'm saying the risk of goo ball forces you to hold block and not move? Its just another thing to consider and feel out. Mindlessly dashing in at cyrax will get you killed, and at those distances you aren't likely to react in time or recover from sticking out a footsie normal. How you calculate risk here can depend on the MU but its always a factor. If the Cyrax never throws it out that Cyrax is losing.

 

[Juggs]

I've seen roughly 75% of people saying Cyrax is broken admit they didn't even buy the expansion. So, they haven't labbed.

Ahh, so you’re starting to understand. Most people who argue on here don’t even play the fucking game, lol. Idk if it’s boredom or what, but they’ll argue so matter of factly when the only experience they have is watching 15 second clips at a time.
¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[ticklebandit!]

Jump distance is outside of match start distance, right? Nobody is full combo punishing blocked cyrax goo at that range. I don’t have the dlc but that sounds like, pardon my French, baloney.

EDIT: balonetwah…? Balonetua’…? Sorry if you guys don’t speak French

 

[ticklebandit!]

Ahh, so you’re starting to understand. Most people who argue on here don’t even play the fucking game, lol. Idk if it’s boredom or what, but they’ll argue so matter of factly when the only experience they have is watching 15 second clips at a time.
¯\(ツ)/¯

I too spend actual time playing this game. Come, let us smell our smug farts together, my dear brothers

 

[Pan1cMode]

Jump distance is outside of match start distance, right? Nobody is full combo punishing blocked cyrax goo at that range. I don’t have the dlc but that sounds like, pardon my French, baloney.

EDIT: balonetwah…? Balonetua’…? Sorry if you guys don’t speak French

Li mei does very easily…

bf4

 

[wsj515]

Ahh, so you’re starting to understand. Most people who argue on here don’t even play the fucking game, lol. Idk if it’s boredom or what, but they’ll argue so matter of factly when the only experience they have is watching 15 second clips at a time.
¯\(ツ)/¯

Yeah I probably should have just stopped the second I labbed the “b3 string counters jabs” thing and found it was a lie.

 

[wsj515]

Your language here makes it seem like pretending it doesn't exist is optimal. Unless you think i'm saying the risk of goo ball forces you to hold block and not move? Its just another thing to consider and feel out. Mindlessly dashing in at cyrax will get you killed, and at those distances you aren't likely to react in time or recover from sticking out a footsie normal. How you calculate risk here can depend on the MU but its always a factor. If the Cyrax never throws it out that Cyrax is losing.

Last one, I can't help myself. So you're saying here that Cyrax should be throwing out a very punishable move in footsie range (we've now moved closer than jump distance) that is high, has 23f startup (plus travel time), and 49f of recovery. If you think this is what Cyrax should be doing as a game plan to win matches, then idk how you're not saying the character is bottom 1.

Again, I'd love to hear what character you're having issues with making this a very bad idea for Cyrax - I know you play Noob and Shang at the minimum, and they have a lot of options.

 

[LEGEND]

Last one, I can't help myself. So you're saying here that Cyrax should be throwing out a very punishable move in footsie range (we've now moved closer than jump distance) that is high, has 23f startup (plus travel time), and 49f of recovery. If you think this is what Cyrax should be doing as a game plan to win matches, then idk how you're not saying the character is bottom 1.

Again, I'd love to hear what character you're having issues with making this a very bad idea for Cyrax - I know you play Noob and Shang at the minimum, and they have a lot of options.

No that's not what I'm saying.

But if you are never throwing it out at all, even when bombs are underneath then you are not using every tool at your disposal

 

[ImpostorOak]

No that's not what I'm saying.

But if you are never throwing it out at all, even when bombs are underneath then you are not using every tool at your disposal

As a Cyrax main, you really should only ever throw out goop at full screen(even there a lot of characters are reaction punishing that), on a read, or in a combo. I promise to God and Jesus. Even with bombs out.

You playing Shang is what makes you think otherwise, I would assume. When we played you tended to try to zone heavily, even throwing double and triple skulls at mid screen, so goop just shuts that down. If you had tried to adapt to that, you'd realize goop wasn't doing much for me at all except letting you get in for free.

Yall should really lab the setups. There are not many instances, if any, that armor break, catch jumps, beat delay wakeup, AND can't be reacted to. And on top of all that, the reset is about 300 damage per loop. So 4 reps to kill. Nitara can just jump back meterburn divekick all game and only needs 2 hits to kill. Sento is 50/50s and Jailing staggers for days and can easily kill in 2 hits. Sindel has similar setplay and is getting 400 damage each hit.

I rate Cyrax higher than the tierlist that started this discussion, personally, but I don't think she's even top 5.

Homelander, Nitara, Johnny, Sindel, Scorpion, and Sektor all seem better, IMO.

 

[Juggs]

I too spend actual time playing this game. Come, let us smell our smug farts together, my dear brothers

Never said I still play the game. Other than that, I don’t understand your post. How is it smug? Lmao

 

[OldManFGC]

Kanimani just put this one together

http://imgur.com/a/wjoeC4R

These are always nice for a good laugh about Sub. Thank you. Edit: I should probably clarify that Sub is nowhere near bottom tier, but it's funny to me that people keep thinking he is.

 

[LEGEND]

As a Cyrax main, you really should only ever throw out goop at full screen(even there a lot of characters are reaction punishing that), on a read, or in a combo. I promise to God and Jesus. Even with bombs out.

You playing Shang is what makes you think otherwise, I would assume. When we played you tended to try to zone heavily, even throwing double and triple skulls at mid screen, so goop just shuts that down. If you had tried to adapt to that, you'd realize goop wasn't doing much for me at all except letting you get in for free.

Yall should really lab the setups. There are not many instances, if any, that armor break, catch jumps, beat delay wakeup, AND can't be reacted to. And on top of all that, the reset is about 300 damage per loop. So 4 reps to kill. Nitara can just jump back meterburn divekick all game and only needs 2 hits to kill. Sento is 50/50s and Jailing staggers for days and can easily kill in 2 hits. Sindel has similar setplay and is getting 400 damage each hit.

I rate Cyrax higher than the tierlist that started this discussion, personally, but I don't think she's even top 5.

Homelander, Nitara, Johnny, Sindel, Scorpion, and Sektor all seem better, IMO.

Don't disagree with the placement. Based on the list from kanimani (spelling) I'd probably put her 5-7 places higher but that still lands on the cusp of top 10

My main annoyance with goo comes from playing Baraka and Lao trying to chase down lame Cyrax players. But from the Shang matchup, zoning is what I have. If you are stopping skulls then you've got a big advantage. I was particularly lucky you were on Sonya Kameo. Feels like every Cyrax player is on a different Kameo. Without that I wouldn't have much.

 

[ImpostorOak]

This is my scrubby opinion about year 2, and honestly for the most part, I'm liking the balance outside of my favorite character being cheeks.

 

[wsj515]

View attachment 22106

This is my scrubby opinion about year 2, and honestly for the most part, I'm liking the balance outside of my favorite character being cheeks.

I like this list a lot, as always I think Rain is vastly overrated by the community particularly after 100 different Janet nerfs, so seeing him so low is validating. One thing that stood out to me though is Baraka, feels way too low. The character is a jack of all trades / master of none, but he does everything better than average, just so solid. At the minimum I think he could be moved up past Tanya, and moving Li Mei between them.

Cyrax feels too high but that's been discussed already in this thread too much lmao.


idk what kind of dirt the Sindel community has on NRS but it makes no sense she's survived this long without some tuning. HL 100% needs to be nerfed as well, doesn't help that he's almost as boring to watch as prime PM - I found myself skipping through all HL matches in the ECT top 8.

 

[ImpostorOak]

I like this list a lot, as always I think Rain is vastly overrated by the community particularly after 100 different Janet nerfs, so seeing him so low is validating. One thing that stood out to me though is Baraka, feels way too low. The character is a jack of all trades / master of none, but he does everything better than average, just so solid. At the minimum I think he could be moved up past Tanya, and moving Li Mei between them.

Cyrax feels too high but that's been discussed already in this thread too much lmao.


idk what kind of dirt the Sindel community has on NRS but it makes no sense she's survived this long without some tuning. HL 100% needs to be nerfed as well, doesn't help that he's almost as boring to watch as prime PM - I found myself skipping through all HL matches in the ECT top 8.

I could definitely see Baraka higher, but I'm in the "Li Mei is slept on," camp.

I play Cyrax/Sonya and from my experience she's the best character I've spent time with in the game, outside of maybe Liu Kang/Khameleon pre-Kameleon nerfs. I could see her dropping a couple places, but I think she's a top tier character.

I think Sindel is fine, though, personally. Some of the corner setups are really nasty, but I think outside of Nitara/Homelander, I like the power level of the game.

 

[LEGEND]

I'm not sure what makes Omni-man not good. Him paired with Mavado is very tough team to deal with.

 

[ImpostorOak]

I'm not sure what makes Omni-man not good. Him paired with Mavado is very tough team to deal with.

Frame data is just bad, to be honest. He has to take risks for his big damage that good characters don't need to take in this game. Even really good players that use Omni-Man consistently rely on his unga-bunga tactics because that's just kinda what the character is. He has a few plus frames, and a bunch of gimmicks like the full-screen charge with Lao hat or Kano Knives.

Just my opinion.

 

[LEGEND]

I'm starting to come to the realization that Shang isn't THAT bad. Being able to threaten people with a good mid and potentially wiff punish pokes with Ground Skull is quite good. He has decent pokes, armor, and doesn't rely on any single Kameo as well. Even in matchups like Shang v Johnny, Omni or Mileena. Where every button you press is a huge risk. You at least have tools to play the game.

His zoning is kinda cheeks sometimes which is a shame. But I've been playing alot of different characters lately and H O L Y do some characters never get to play MK1. If their one dimension of gameplay doesn't work they are shit outta luck.

 

[M2Dave]

His zoning is kinda cheeks sometimes...

Most zoning in this game is "cheeks", which is why most zoning characters (i.e., Peacemaker, Quan Chi, Rain, and Shang Tsung) are ranked low on tier lists.

Sub Zero's ice armor disables up to 80% of a zoning character's special move list with the press of one button, which is simply a bad design. The pitiful part is that zoning in this game is so weak that characters rarely even need to choose Sub Zero as their kameo. LOL.

Liu Kang and Reiko work because they have the best offense and buttons among the zoning characters.

As far as Sektor is concerned, here is my initial reaction. In summary, I like the zoning when the game allows you to zone and I also like the EX frame thrower with Motaro. Sektor's normal attacks, especially the low pokes, seem really bad, though.

I am curious what everyone else thinks of Sektor.

 

[LEGEND]

Most zoning in this game is "cheeks", which is why most zoning characters (i.e., Peacemaker, Quan Chi, Rain, and Shang Tsung) are ranked low on tier lists.

Sub Zero's ice armor disables up to 80% of a zoning character's special move list with the press of one button, which is simply a bad design. The pitiful part is that zoning in this game is so weak that characters rarely even need to choose Sub Zero as their kameo. LOL.

Liu Kang and Reiko work because they have the best offense and buttons among the zoning characters.

As far as Sektor is concerned, here is my initial reaction. In summary, I like the zoning when the game allows you to zone and I also like the EX frame thrower with Motaro. Sektor's normal attacks, especially the low pokes, seem really bad, though.

I am curious what everyone else thinks of Sektor.

I'm well aware. Though some matchups I can freely throw ground skulls and not get killed on block. Or throw multi skulls at mid screen and not die if they duck it. Also, now that Shang has the sub Kameo steal that counter pick has felt less absurd.

-
Sektor is crazy good. Her normals are kinda sub standard but that's only when compared directly to characters that are meant to rush down. She still has a fast as hell mid at 11 frames. You just gotta spend meter to make it safe-ish on block. And imo she is hard locked into Mavado Kameo. Her only real weakness is not being broken tier like HL, Nitara, Scorpion, Sindel.

 

[kabelfritz]

Sektor is crazy good. Her normals are kinda sub standard but that's only when compared directly to characters that are meant to rush down. She still has a fast as hell mid at 11 frames. You just gotta spend meter to make it safe-ish on block. And imo she is hard locked into Mavado Kameo. Her only real weakness is not being broken tier like HL, Nitara, Scorpion, Sindel.

dont really know what to think about sektor. she kinda feels like a+ tier, but i dont really see much that could be nerfed. range on the 2nd hit of b34 might be a bit much, throw reach might take a hit, but else?
she also feels a bit like an unfinished character with the weird variations in juggle height, db4 knockback distance and the advantageous bf2 bug for example.
her damage is lower than other top tiers but thats fine with her exceptional screen control.

 

[NHDR]

I'm not sure what makes Omni-man not good. Him paired with Mavado is very tough team to deal with.

I personally think Omni is solid, but there are a few issues I see. He is quite straight-forward and linear, so he can be predictable in a sense. He is also a bit more kameo-dependent than the average character, though I do think he meshes quite well with Jax, Sonya, and Kung Lao. Finally, I haven't reviewed the frame data recently, but some of his normals are a bit slow/sluggish. Ultimately, I think he's somewhere between mid tier and maybe upper mid.