New Era Podcast

[rifraf]

I'm just going to leave this right here. It's timestamped for your own convenience btw.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm just going to leave this right here. It's timestamped for your own convenience btw.

The only thing he's missing is that those players from the rest of the FGC who casually pick up other games and register for them only do so for 3-4 months. You can look at our competitive player base picking up/streaming T8, and that's about how long they lasted.

So if it's more than 3-4 months away from release of a smaller game, you will never have the same numbers that you would with a tournament in the first few months.

Other than that, he's spot-on about serious players liking the gameplay, and how a meta featuring extra elements (someone called it "complex" in another thread) is not really targeted at casuals. To me, as far as fighting games go, MK1 is not particularly complex. But I guess to someone that's not used to any fundamentally necessary mechanics in MK games outside of moving back and forth and doing combos, something like an assist or the mechanics of Sento is a big mental leap.

 

[rifraf]

The only thing he's missing is that those players from the rest of the FGC who casually pick up other games and register for them only do so for 3-4 months. You can look at our competitive player base picking up/streaming T8, and that's about how long they lasted.

So if it's more than 3-4 months away from release of a smaller game, you will never have the same numbers that you would with a tournament in the first few months.

Other than that, he's spot-on about serious players liking the gameplay, and how a meta featuring extra elements (someone called it "complex" in another thread) is not really targeted at casuals. To me, as far as fighting games go, MK1 is not particularly complex. But I guess to someone that's not used to any fundamentally necessary mechanics in MK games outside of moving back and forth and doing combos, something like an assist or the mechanics of Sento is a big mental leap.

I consider Max as a pretty neutral source when it comes to FGC politics. He has nothing to gain, and arguably, he is too diverse to care if NRS blacklists him.

Any comment from the opposition? I'm impartial btw @M2Dave

 

[Subby Z]

Maximilian is spot on. I consider myself a huge mk fan, but a fighting game casual and that’s fine. I personally don’t like the kameo system.

I also want to play with Kuai Liang when I’m wanting to play as Sub-Zero and I have done that since I was a child because he’s been Sub-Zero since MK2. What’s that you say? Scorpion was also Hanzo Hasashi in every fucking game we have played until this one?

Those aren’t the only 2 changes I hated either. There were plenty of characters who were fucked over in this game. MK1 is a turd that needs to be flushed.

 

[M2Dave]

Any comment from the opposition? I'm impartial btw @M2Dave

Maximilian is obviously right, but I would argue that everyone hates the kameo system, not just the casual gamers. Visually speaking, the number one problem with the kameo system is monotony, and if there is one thing casual gamers despise, it is watching the same one or two moves being used ad infinitum.

In spite of the incessant arguments over the past ten months (or much longer if you include Mortal Kombat 11), I believe that Mortal Kombat's formula for success is straightforward. If I were the producer at NRS, I would create a fast-paced fighting game, similar to Mortal Kombat X but with more defensive options, archetypes, and execution. I would ensure that there is an abundance of single-player content and the highest quality online gameplay. You will never please every player, but a fusion between Mortal Kombat 9 and X (without the variations) appears the subsequent and logical step for this franchise.

 

[superbn0va]

What a fanboy nonsense. Hating on other franchises to raise your opinions on MK is stupid. Typical NRS fan boy behavior. MK11 and MK1 are trash. MK1 had potential but unfortunately it ended up being bland and boring.

 

[TarkatanPeriodontik]

The various single player modes also don’t do a good job teaching casuals how to have fun with the Kameo system (setting the monotony and simplicity of the early kameo system aside). Invasions and the story mode could have done a better job educating the player and left a better impression on them.

Casual interest would be higher if the game was released in a better state, with better single player modes that impart (with fun gameplay) how to play it

 

[rifraf]

I would argue that everyone hates the kameo system, not just the casual gamers

That's a bold statement.

a fusion between Mortal Kombat 9 and X

Hard pass on MKX for me. The epitome of party game. More mash, more 50/50s, more scrub mechanics. The logical step forward for MK. Lock in!

 

[Son ov Timett]

Re: Story,

These dummies need to get away from their current story mode presentation of having the heroes beat the ever living crap out of the villains every scene. Shao Kahn looks about as strong as the Brooklyn Brawler.

Invasions shouldn't even exist. All that energy could have been spent towards a viable konquest mode that world built. Take a page from SF and have a create a character to enter konquest. You can also implement the krypt into this mode ala Bloodborne's dungeons. Have to fight your way to unlock all the goodies. Helll have real invasions emanate from this mode ala Souls series where another player can challenge you and gank your coins. (Turn off online mode if you don't want to get invaded )

NRS is brain dead, lazy, or both.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Reading MK1 Top 10 Quality Lists w/Mike Hollow, KingJae

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[CrimsonShadow]

That's a bold statement.



Hard pass on MKX for me. The epitome of party game. More mash, more 50/50s, more scrub mechanics. The logical step forward for MK. Lock in!

Honestly the contradiction you bring up is one of the biggest issues with the discussion for me.

Like you, MKX wasn’t my favorite meta — the run button and constant 50/50s with 50% screen normals, etc. And I didn’t claim that everyone hated the meta because it wasn’t my thing. I played it anyway, still tried to learn whatever I could, and supported the scene.

It seems like a lot of people don’t have the self-awareness that you do to just admit their own personal dislike of a game or meta. So they try to claim that no one else likes it as well, when that’s clearly not the case.

Then the same people turn around and say that T8 is just a different kind of game than past versions of Tekken, and everyone needs to adjust and accept it for what it is/isn’t, while the community has been ripping the meta and Namco apart. It’s beyond hypocritical.

 

[Son ov Timett]

 

[rifraf]

Honestly the contradiction you bring up is one of the biggest issues with the discussion for me.

Personally, I don't mind criticism at all. What I do mind, is when people take things personally and when they're clearly unable to be constructive. Instead, they result in endless drama and sentimentality which makes discussion impossible. That's precisely the reason why I think it's important to call out the hypocrisy. In a respectful manner, of course. Since discussion is clearly impossible, point out the hypocrisy and move on.

 

[M2Dave]

There is neither hypocrisy nor drama.

When players speak fondly of Mortal Kombat, they are usually referring to Mortal Kombat 9 and X.

After a succession of mediocre 3D fighting games, Mortal Kombat 9 resurrected the competitive scene while Mortal Kombat X acquired the most participants at EVO its second year. There have also been tournaments for Mortal Kombat X hosted by Maximilian and Destroyer well after the game's lifespan. Irrespective how anyone feels about Mortal Kombat 9 and X because, as I have already said, you cannot please everyone, you would think that NRS would implement character archetypes as well as running into the subsequent game instead of this failed kameo system.

Street Fighter and Tekken are presently getting six to seven, sometimes even as high as nine to ten, more players than Mortal Kombat 1, which is abnormal in spite what the apologists claim.

Mortal Kombat, the franchise that sells millions and millions of copies, is currently losing to Under Night In-Birth II Sys: Celes, a game that I have never heard of.

Stop making excuses for Mortal Kombat 1 and demand that NRS design a fighting game that the NRS scene (and others) actually gives a damn about.

 

[rifraf]

Stop making excuses for Mortal Kombat 1 and demand that NRS design a fighting game that the NRS scene (and others) actually gives a damn about.

No one is truly doing that though, it's just that each one is dealing with things they don't like differently. I hate speaking for others, but let's take Crimson for example. He clearly stated in his latest post that even though he didn't love MKX' meta, he tried playing the game and still supported the scene. That's one way of dealing with it. Me. I didn't care. When MKX was a thing, I just didn't care to be around anything MK because I realised that game wasn't for me at all. That's another way.

Regarding MK1, I love the game. However, I've been very vocal about things I personally don't like and would like to see changed. But you need to understand that these things are not major. Even if NRS implements these changes, MK1 will still be MK1 which means some fans like you for example just won't like it still, lol.

It's clear you and Tom have passion about MK, but just because YOU don't like MK1 does not equal to EVERYONE or even the majority not liking it. This may be a tough one to swallow for passionate fans like you but sometimes you just have to hold that. I hold it for more than years. You may love one, you may hate the next. That's how NRS does things.

 

[just_2swift]

If NRS used MKX as a canvas and took the 2 best variations of each character and combined them for example

Scorpion Hellfire + Ninjistu and add a special move from Inferno (demon summons)

Kung Lao Tempest + Buzzsaw and a special from hat trick (Hatrap)

And what's even more insane is that NRS could keep the characters strings the same since they were universal in each variation they can add also add those unique ones like scorpions ninjustu strings to the list above.

Imagine the Characters in this example right now compared to what we got in MK1. THIS I what i expected from MK11 and more so MK1... This is what Mortal Kombat's trajectory should've been.

When you find success you don't deviate from it you build upon it. This is called Legacy. Capcom and Namco know this and thats why they're at the top.

 

[rifraf]

If NRS used MKX as a canvas

So, let me get this straight. NRS used MK9, arguably the best and most loved NRS MK, as a canvas for MK1 and you guys didn't like it. Now you're asking for MKX to be the canvas for MK13. Which is a very niche and highly divisive MK game.

Idk what kind of game MK13 will end up being, but if NRS follows what you guys are saying I'm pretty sure it's going to be the shittiest MK ever

 

[CanoCano]

So, let me get this straight. NRS used MK9, arguably the best and most loved NRS MK, as a canvas for MK1 and you guys didn't like it. Now you're asking for MKX to be the canvas for MK13. Which is a very niche and highly divisive MK game.

Idk what kind of game MK13 will end up being, but if NRS follows what you guys are saying I'm pretty sure it's going to be the shittiest MK ever

NRS should lock in and use MK4 as a canvas

 

[Juggs]

So, let me get this straight. NRS used MK9, arguably the best and most loved NRS MK, as a canvas for MK1 and you guys didn't like it. Now you're asking for MKX to be the canvas for MK13. Which is a very niche and highly divisive MK game.

Idk what kind of game MK13 will end up being, but if NRS follows what you guys are saying I'm pretty sure it's going to be the shittiest MK ever

They definitely didn’t use MK9 as a “canvas” for MK1. Idk who said that but I don’t think that’s true at all. NRS wants their new game to play differently enough from the previous games, but also not TOO differently where it feels like you’re playing an entirely different game. They want familiarity while simultaneously not wanting it at the same time. This formula has worked extremely well, because NRS realizes that 99% of their sales or so are coming from casual players. Casuals don’t want legacy games or anything close to it, they just want something new and shiny. Not going to explain everything that NRS does to appease the casuals, but the fact is that they do, and NO ONE should (or can) blame them. The diehard MK community isn’t a super large %. The actual competitive community is an even smaller %. Then you take a look at the community who actually competes, whether that’s online, off, or both, and that % is smaller than both of those. So what incentive really does NRS have to make the game stand the test of time, to be super balanced and good competitively, etc etc? I’d argue they have an inventive to make the games NOT stand the test of time if I’m being honest. Which, I don’t necessarily think they do, I just think it’s a consequence of them not really caring about the lasting quality of the games or if they’re really good competitively. But they get to pretend that they do, just enough to appease the competitive community.

But hey, what do I know?

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

I'm feeling the power level discussion. It's 100% true. When I look at what makes a character top tier in MK11...it blows my mind. Liu Kang, a wholly unremarkable character, is indisputably one of the best characters in MK11. And MK1 continues that trend. Johnny Cage, a mediocre character in the grand scheme of fighting games, is one of MK1's best characters. This is where the power level in MK at: a fast mid, decent pokes, good movement and okay staggers is enough to shoot you into top tier. And if that makes you top tier you have a boring fighting game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm feeling the power level discussion. It's 100% true. When I look at what makes a character top tier in MK11...it blows my mind. Liu Kang, a wholly unremarkable character, is indisputably one of the best characters in MK11. And MK1 continues that trend. Johnny Cage, a mediocre character in the grand scheme of fighting games, is one of MK1's best characters. This is where the power level in MK at: a fast mid, decent pokes, good movement and okay staggers is enough to shoot you into top tier. And if that makes you top tier you have a boring fighting game.

I don't think that's quite enough. Cage has plus frames galore, and because of that you basically have to take a risk to do anything when he's in. It's way beyond "ok staggers and a mid". Sindel has crazy mobility, zoning, and a semi-vortex. Kenshi is another character with an ability that basically makes you afraid for your life to press a button. Ashrah basically has the kitchen sink, with 50% screen whiff punisher, one of the best "get out of jail" tools, a plus projectile, teleport, great AA, etc. With Tanya you have to respect her range and armor as they're some of the best in the game.

If you took all this away and just gave them a good mid, pokes and staggers, none of them would be top tier.

 

[CanoCano]

This is where the power level in MK at: a fast mid, decent pokes, good movement and okay staggers is enough to shoot you into top tier. And if that makes you top tier you have a boring fighting game.

Mind you these are the things that made characters strong in MK9 as well
For a guy who's been here since 2011 i'm surprised you don't remember how good Dash In D3/D4 was in that game, or Johnny's F3 staggers or how Dash Block was essential to good movement for everyone

 

[Son ov Timett]

If NRS used MKX as a canvas and took the 2 best variations of each character and combined them for example

Scorpion Hellfire + Ninjistu and add a special move from Inferno (demon summons)

Kung Lao Tempest + Buzzsaw and a special from hat trick (Hatrap)

And what's even more insane is that NRS could keep the characters strings the same since they were universal in each variation they can add also add those unique ones like scorpions ninjustu strings to the list above.

Imagine the Characters in this example right now compared to what we got in MK1. THIS I what i expected from MK11 and more so MK1... This is what Mortal Kombat's trajectory should've been.

When you find success you don't deviate from it you build upon it. This is called Legacy. Capcom and Namco know this and thats why they're at the top.

Every game since MK9 has been designed in a way to lazily tackle balance. NRS has neutered their characters in the name of balance. We could have deep interesting characters, but it would be burdensome to the developer to balance them accordingly.

It's all a Con Job starting with X. "Here's 3 variations so you don't have to counter pick to survive, main who you like an adjust accordingly."

Except in the current incarnation, kameos are the "balance tweak."

If they continue this route, they should go with stances for every character. This would satisfy their balancr "agenda" and still allow for expression and depth.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Every game since MK9 has been designed in a way to lazily tackle balance. NRS has neutered their characters in the name of balance. We could have deep interesting characters, but it would be burdensome to the developer to balance them accordingly.

It's all a Con Job starting with X. "Here's 3 variations so you don't have to counter pick to survive, main who you like an adjust accordingly."

Except in the current incarnation, kameos are the "balance tweak."

If they continue this route, they should go with stances for every character. This would satisfy their balancr "agenda" and still allow for expression and depth.

Sindel, Kenshi, Shang, Ermac, Smoke and Quan Chi are all deeper and more interesting in MK1 than they were in MK9.

Kitana, Liu, Johnny, Scorp, Sub, Baraka, Mileena about the same

Kung Lao might be the only character from both games that was more interesting in MK9 due to teleport shenanigans and divekick mobility.

 

[Son ov Timett]

Heh I'll concede on Kenshi and Shang. Smoke 100 percent resets were hype af. Sindel levitation cancels were hype in 9 and took more skill. Hardly touched the game since Quan has been out but I'd rather see Rune traps than whatever he does now.

Call me old fashion muh brutha.

This topic has been discussed to death, but as Just Swift mentioned MKX could've been THE GAME. All they had to do was provided some defensive options, remove the 50/50s which lead to death combos, and severely tone down NJP. (Why the f am I getting hit by Takeda across the screen with a brain dead NJP?)

Two variations, one defensive/one offensive, which can tightly combo into one another. MKX Raiden was fun af. Imagine if you could switch from Thunder God to Master of Storms on a dime. We would still be playing this shit to this day. Bleh