Female designs and lack of variety

[Cicada 5]

Completely misunderstood the point and is not what I said (or implied) at all. When you drastically change a characters appearance and more specifically how a character dresses, and that change is far more limited AND all the other characters of the same sex dress similarly, it’s pretty clear what the intent is there. Or rather, you’re left with only interpreting it in a particular way.

Except they were already dressing the exact same way before. That was the issue; from the PS2 era onwards, there was little to no difference in how Sonya, a hardass military servicewoman and the female denizens of an exotic, fantastical dimension dressed.

 

[Juggs]

Except they were already dressing the exact same way before. That was the issue; from the PS2 era onwards, there was little to no difference in how Sonya, a hardass military servicewoman and the female denizens of an exotic, fantastical dimension dressed.

I’m


Some of the pictures wouldn’t upload on here for some reason. Anyway, they’ve typically done a good job at differentiating the female characters as far as what they wear and their look. But a problem that has always existed for MK is the lack of variety in body types, which is what we initially were talking about. As stated multiple times ITT, It’s not just about what they’re wearing. All the body types are relatively the same. With the redesigns, they could have easily alleviated this issue, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. In fact, I bet Nitara is also the same type of skinny with no curves, similar height, and with the only difference being she has wings or something like that.

 

[Mk9kevin]

This is a middle ground. Some female characters are designed with sex appeal in mind and others aren't. And the ones that are designed to be sexy don't need to be dressed like something out of an issue of Playboy.

Nah it ain’t. None of these designs scream exciting for me. They’re all bland Af to the point people were confusing Li Mei with Mileena. Who do you think has sex appeal in this game rn? Sindel? Kitana? Ashrah? None are enticing enough. They need more variety in terms of clothing and body types.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

MKX was what a middle ground looks like. Zero characters in that game were over sexualized.

The characters who showed no skin - Sonya, Cassie, Jacqui made sense because they’re in the military.

Mileena showed more skin relative to other characters, but it’s tied to her personality. She’s very flirty and promiscuous, over compensates with her outfits, and is sleeping with 3 of her generals throughout the game and tie in comic - Reiko, Tanya, Baraka. But even then she didn’t look ridiculous like in MK9, it still was an outfit someone could fight in. She was still showing less than an average gym goer.

 

[Juxtapose]

And you think you know what women want? Some of us are tomboys and don't like wearing tight or revealing clothing. While others are comfortable with wearing short skirts and belly shirts. It isn't about what everyone WANTS women to wear, what Juggs was saying, is women should wear what THEY want to wear. Because SHOCKER, women also are human beings with likes and dislikes and can make choices on their own. Comments like yours are not only ignorant but it's the big picture issue with how people think these days, especially on social media.

That's the thing: no matter what they do, they'll never please everyone because everyone wants something different and for widely different reasons.

If the women were dressed as they appeared in Mortal Kombat (2011), people would complain. If they're dressed as they were in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate, people would complain. If there was a mix, people would complain. If there was a "happy medium," like Mortal Kombat XL, people would complain.

Thus, since people will always complain, NetherRealm should design the characters to appear as they want.

 

[Juxtapose]

She’s very flirty and promiscuous, over compensates with her outfits, and is sleeping with 3 of her generals throughout the game and tie in comic - Reiko, Tanya, Baraka.

She actually wasn't though. Multiplayer intros and personalities are not canon when they conflict with Story Mode and canon material. Look at Cassie, her multiplayer character is a completely different person from Story Mode in each game.

Her relationship with Tanya is non-canon, she never had a relationship with Baraka, and her relationship with Reiko was canon (until the comics were de-canonized), though he was using her and actually hurt her.

 

[Cicada 5]

Nah it ain’t. None of these designs scream exciting for me. They’re all bland Af to the point people were confusing Li Mei with Mileena. Who do you think has sex appeal in this game rn? Sindel? Kitana? Ashrah? None are enticing enough. They need more variety in terms of clothing and body types.

We have about as much variety in clothing and body type as we had in past games.

 

[Cicada 5]

That's the thing: no matter what they do, they'll never please everyone because everyone wants something different and for widely different reasons.

If the women were dressed as they appeared in Mortal Kombat (2011), people would complain. If they're dressed as they were in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate, people would complain. If there was a mix, people would complain. If there was a "happy medium," like Mortal Kombat XL, people would complain.

Thus, since people will always complain, NetherRealm should design the characters to appear as they want.

And what if this is what they want?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

She actually wasn't though. Multiplayer intros and personalities are not canon when they conflict with Story Mode and canon material. Look at Cassie, her multiplayer character is a completely different person from Story Mode in each game.

Her relationship with Tanya is non-canon, she never had a relationship with Baraka, and her relationship with Reiko was canon (until the comics were de-canonized), though he was using her and actually hurt her.

Ok but the designs have to jive with what they say in the intros too though? Just because the story doesn’t explicitly stop and tell us she never slept with Baraka or Tanya doesn’t mean she didn’t, unless a developer said so in which case I’m wrong. New Mileena is with Tanya also I’m pretty sure. They didn’t just randomly write the dialogues for intros, they made them say stuff that x character might say.

The way the character looks has to play into the story mode and non canon intro version if we want to look at it that way.

You’re a really cool guy so I know you’re not being pedantic on purpose, but this seems like a distinction that doesn’t have a meaningful difference when it comes to the logic behind a character’s design. You could look at Kuai Liang’s battle armor in MKX and say it’s not canon because he never wore it in the story mode. But it looks like armor he totally would wear if the occasion called for it.

 

[Juggs]

We have about as much variety in clothing and body type as we had in past games.

For the female characters, that’s true as far as body types which is the entire point. This was honestly the perfect time to have varying body types for the female characters like they have with the male characters. And it just doesn’t seem like it’s something they’re interested in doing, hence the criticism.

 

[Mk9kevin]

We have about as much variety in clothing and body type as we had in past games.

And they need to improve on this, that’s literally the point of this thread! Not everything being criticized is because we want to see women with their tits hanging out(which honestly we’re all adults so it shouldn’t even have to matter). We want more variation like how the men have it. It’s not rocket science.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I'm guessing MK1 is gonna have at least 4 different costumes for every character. I find it extremely unlikely that ALL of the 3 other costumes are going to be bland and undistinct from eachother. I do not know if we are getting something like MK9 Mileena primary of Fleshpits costume, but I also doubt all her other costumes are going to be "bland generic covered up conservative". So yall, lets take a deep breath and wait a little longer for the full game before concluding that the girls look all generic. Their primary costumes are not the best ever, yes, but there are going to be multiple.

Even then, if NRS wants easy money, then they can bring back old costumes as DLC (like with Scorpion from mk9 and Sub Zero from MKD) for the ladies and its a win-win. Here's hoping for MKX Kitana primary to return, as that was my fav costume for her ever.

 

[Marlow]

A lot of the female characters are legacy or returning characters, and they previously had similar body types, so no surprise that in this new game they still have similar body types. My biggest takeaway is the NRS should look at creating/introducing more new female characters, which would give better opportunity to have more diversity, variety, and inclusion in their designs.

 

[Juxtapose]

And what if this is what they want?

You mean if how the characters in Mortal Kombat 1 look, if that's how NetherRealm wants them to look? If so, that's great.

Ok but the designs have to jive with what they say in the intros too though?

No they don't. I've never once seen that said as a design pillar. They've always specified around Story Mode.

Just because the story doesn’t explicitly stop and tell us she never slept with Baraka or Tanya doesn’t mean she didn’t...

Doesn't mean she did either, and it means you're endorsing speculation as opposed to the actual Story. The actual NetherRealm continuity is Story Mode and bios. By your logic, Sub-Zero is trying to get in bed with Jade.

New Mileena is with Tanya also I’m pretty sure.

Yes, in the New Era, this appears to be a canon relationship.

They didn’t just randomly write the dialogues for intros, they made them say stuff that x character might say.

They did a Kombat Kast long ago discussing how intro dialogue is made. Basically NetherRealm asked all their employees to send in intro dialogue ideas and samples and they took the coolest ones. They are not canon, they're simply cool things the characters may say to one another. Your favourite intro dialogue may have come from Bob the NetherRealm Mail Clerk.

The way the character looks has to play into the story mode and non canon intro version if we want to look at it that way.

No, because intro dialogue unto itself is not canon.

You’re a really cool guy...

Thank you .

... so I know you’re not being pedantic on purpose, but this seems like a distinction that doesn’t have a meaningful difference when it comes to the logic behind a character’s design.

I'm not being pedantic. I'm going off of what NetherRealm has said in Kombat Kasts, interviews, and through the games themselves. Intro dialogue itself is not canon. This is not my opinion. Lots of people seem to think it is though, and it screws up their view of what really is canon and the story. Having said that, intro dialogue can reference canon and can become canon later on.

You could look at Kuai Liang’s battle armor in MKX and say it’s not canon because he never wore it in the story mode. But it looks like armor he totally would wear if the occasion called for it.

Actually, he briefly had it in the comics, so it was indeed canon (then a few years back the comics were de-canonized, leaving it in a grey area). Look at Cassie's "space suit" skin in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate. It's not canon at all, and yet it's in multiplayer. It's a skin from a future version of Cassie that was planned but never made it into Story Mode, so it's a "what-if" situation.

Most skins and intro dialogue fall into that "what-if" category. Not canon, but still cool and could-have-been. Well, except for that space suit. That wasn't so cool.

 

[Marlow]

Mileena showed more skin relative to other characters, but it’s tied to her personality. She’s very flirty and promiscuous, over compensates with her outfits, and is sleeping with 3 of her generals throughout the game and tie in comic - Reiko, Tanya, Baraka.

This is where I have a hard time judging these things, because we're talking about fictional characters here. There is no actual Mileena. These characters don't spring from the ground fully formed. Her personality isn't really hers, it's whatever the development team chose to give her.

So on the one hand, it's a totally valid argument to make that a characters choices should reflect their personality, but on the other hand their personality is artificial anyways, so I find it equally valid to to challenge a character's personality.

 

[Juggs]

A lot of the female characters are legacy or returning characters, and they previously had similar body types, so no surprise that in this new game they still have similar body types. My biggest takeaway is the NRS should look at creating/introducing more new female characters, which would give better opportunity to have more diversity, variety, and inclusion in their designs.

But a lot of the characters have been redesigned. They could have easily redesigned the female characters to have different body types than they used to have even if it’s slight differences. Like why isn’t there a muscular female character (outside of Sheeva, who isn’t in this game afaik)? It doesn’t even have to be a super muscular character like Marisa or Sheeva either. Why isn’t there a female character with curves? Seriously, all the female characters have nearly the exact same body type.

And that’s not going to change unless people provide feedback. If after seeing/hearing this feedback they still don’t want to change anything going forward, that’s fine. They’ll still get criticized for it, but that’s par for the course for every game dev.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

But a lot of the characters have been redesigned. They could have easily redesigned the female characters to have different body types than they used to have even if it’s slight differences. Like why isn’t there a muscular female character (outside of Sheeva, who isn’t in this game afaik)? It doesn’t even have to be a super muscular character like Marisa or Sheeva either. Why isn’t there a female character with curves? Seriously, all the female characters have nearly the exact same body type.

And that’s not going to change unless people provide feedback. If after seeing/hearing this feedback they still don’t want to change anything going forward, that’s fine. They’ll still get criticized for it, but that’s par for the course for every game dev.

While I think it's an interesting idea, just looking at how weirdly many people received Tanya in this game, making an established character have a body too dissimilar to previous incarnations could lead to even more backlash. I vaguely remember some people calling Mileena a booblehead in MKX, stating that her head look too big for her skinny frame lol. Can't imagine what people would say if some character became chubby for example, or super muscular. Which would lead to making very small variations of body types (kitana is skinny while mileena is a little toned and sonya has more like a wrestler body) and, at this point, the whole point is kinda moot, as the bodies wouldnt be too dissimilar after all.

I'd be all in for a quadruped hexagonally-shaped D'vorah though

 

[Juggs]

While I think it's an interesting idea, just looking at how weirdly many people received Tanya in this game, making an established character have a body too dissimilar to previous incarnations could lead to even more backlash. I vaguely remember some people calling Mileena a booblehead in MKX, stating that her head look too big for her skinny frame lol. Can't imagine what people would say if some character became chubby for example, or super muscular. Which would lead to making very small variations of body types (kitana is skinny while mileena is a little toned and sonya has more like a wrestler body) and, at this point, the whole point is kinda moot, as the bodies wouldnt be too dissimilar after all.

I'd be all in for a quadruped hexagonally-shaped D'vorah though

You mean like the backlash they’re already getting for the redesigns? That’s my entire point. This would’ve been the perfect time to try it out, but it seems like it didn’t even cross their minds.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

This is where I have a hard time judging these things, because we're talking about fictional characters here. There is no actual Mileena. These characters don't spring from the ground fully formed. Her personality isn't really hers, it's whatever the development team chose to give her.

So on the one hand, it's a totally valid argument to make that a characters choices should reflect their personality, but on the other hand their personality is artificial anyways, so I find it equally valid to to challenge a character's personality.

Yeah but their personalities being artificial isn’t an argument for me. We treat them like they’re real for the purpose of being immersed in the game.

You mean if how the characters in Mortal Kombat 1 look, if that's how NetherRealm wants them to look? If so, that's great.



No they don't. I've never once seen that said as a design pillar. They've always specified around Story Mode.



Doesn't mean she did either, and it means you're endorsing speculation as opposed to the actual Story. The actual NetherRealm continuity is Story Mode and bios. By your logic, Sub-Zero is trying to get in bed with Jade.



Yes, in the New Era, this appears to be a canon relationship.



They did a Kombat Kast long ago discussing how intro dialogue is made. Basically NetherRealm asked all their employees to send in intro dialogue ideas and samples and they took the coolest ones. They are not canon, they're simply cool things the characters may say to one another. Your favourite intro dialogue may have come from Bob the NetherRealm Mail Clerk.



No, because intro dialogue unto itself is not canon.



Thank you .



I'm not being pedantic. I'm going off of what NetherRealm has said in Kombat Kasts, interviews, and through the games themselves. Intro dialogue itself is not canon. This is not my opinion. Lots of people seem to think it is though, and it screws up their view of what really is canon and the story. Having said that, intro dialogue can reference canon and can become canon later on.



Actually, he briefly had it in the comics, so it was indeed canon (then a few years back the comics were de-canonized, leaving it in a grey area). Look at Cassie's "space suit" skin in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate. It's not canon at all, and yet it's in multiplayer. It's a skin from a future version of Cassie that was planned but never made it into Story Mode, so it's a "what-if" situation.

Most skins and intro dialogue fall into that "what-if" category. Not canon, but still cool and could-have-been. Well, except for that space suit. That wasn't so cool.

Ok I did a bad job explaining my point. I know the intro dialogue is non canon. My point is it doesn’t matter that it’s not canon when it comes to how the character is designed. The MKX old Liu Kang and Kung Lao are entirely non canon, but they’re a great design and that’s what matters more than the canon. Their look reflects their attitude and how the “what if” versions of them would behave. Their main costume in the game is entirely based on a non canon scenario.

You’re right that Mileena isn’t sleeping with the people I mentioned explicitly in canon. A lot of the intro dialogues do reference in game events though, so some of them are more meaningful than others when it comes to characterization. You even yourself just said it’s a grey area regarding Reiko, which I agree with it’s a GREY area. That’s what I said you were being a little pedantic, because it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this topic if they literally spell it out for us or not, Mileena’s design serves the canon and non canon versions of her.


I’m missing the forest for the trees though, the point I was trying to make in my first post on the matter is that the way a character looks matters with how they behave, Mileena is more promiscuous than the other women to the point that it makes sense for her to show a little bit more skin than them like it was in the game, even if it’s just non canon dialogue, the character design is still there to serve the non canon version in the intro dialogue - it’s a part of the game.

Every single skin except for the obvious ones like the Brazil skins are something the character COULD wear - even if Sub never wore his MKX default, the design works because it’s something previous and current versions of him would wear, it makes sense.

I was basically making the case that MKX designs as a whole did a good job of being something the character WOULD wear even if they don’t in story mode, and more importantly that the women aren’t over sexualized at all, and any women who show more skin than others are the ones that makes sense. It was to counter the idea that we’re foaming at the mouth to see video game titties, and that a “middle ground” has existed and pretty fucking recently too. One that had everyone looking very distinct while still being respectful, the body suits are boring, even if I think Kitana looks good.

 

[Vslayer]

This isn't about policing what real women are wearing. This is about the fictional women in this game series. Fictional women whose clothing has been designed and approved by a mostly, if not entirely male team, often with the express purpose of appealing to male video game players, with little or no care for what real women would be interested in (at least until recently).

You can't divorce these discussions from the context of how women in video games (and other media) have historically been written and designed for the purpose of titillation of men. (Male) Video game fans generally didn't care about freedom of expression for women until companies decided not every game needed water balloon breasts or dental floss bikinis to sell (which is the only reason those things were ever included in games to begin with). You really think the average Mortal Kombat fan cares about how Sonya expresses herself sexually? The Boys even mocked this idea in one episode.

I mean, I agree with you. But I think they probably still have a male team working on female designs, and coming up with the most boring shit because they're overcorrecting. What I'm saying is, they should work on 1) diversity, and 2) personality to come up with interesting and unique designs for female characters. Also, both modest and sexier outfits still have a place in gaming. Just look at SF6's success. It's all about balance, and if it fits with the character.

Example, the badass cop Li Mei, wearing OPEN TOED HEELS, makes no freaking sense whatsoever. That, in itself, is more sexist than, for example, Mileena having a revealing cleavage. Like it or not, women like women too, and we will simp regardless. So blaming men only is dumb, as is pretending like women don't like being sexy. Or rather, being perceived as such.

 

[Juxtapose]

Yeah but their personalities being artificial isn’t an argument for me. We treat them like they’re real for the purpose of being immersed in the game.

Ok I did a bad job explaining my point. I know the intro dialogue is non canon. My point is it doesn’t matter that it’s not canon when it comes to how the character is designed. The MKX old Liu Kang and Kung Lao are entirely non canon, but they’re a great design and that’s what matters more than the canon. Their look reflects their attitude and how the “what if” versions of them would behave. Their main costume in the game is entirely based on a non canon scenario.

You’re right that Mileena isn’t sleeping with the people I mentioned explicitly in canon. A lot of the intro dialogues do reference in game events though, so some of them are more meaningful than others when it comes to characterization. You even yourself just said it’s a grey area regarding Reiko, which I agree with it’s a GREY area. That’s what I said you were being a little pedantic, because it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this topic if they literally spell it out for us or not, Mileena’s design serves the canon and non canon versions of her.


I’m missing the forest for the trees though, the point I was trying to make in my first post on the matter is that the way a character looks matters with how they behave, Mileena is more promiscuous than the other women to the point that it makes sense for her to show a little bit more skin than them like it was in the game, even if it’s just non canon dialogue, the character design is still there to serve the non canon version in the intro dialogue - it’s a part of the game.

Every single skin except for the obvious ones like the Brazil skins are something the character COULD wear - even if Sub never wore his MKX default, the design works because it’s something previous and current versions of him would wear, it makes sense.

I was basically making the case that MKX designs as a whole did a good job of being something the character WOULD wear even if they don’t in story mode, and more importantly that the women aren’t over sexualized at all, and any women who show more skin than others are the ones that makes sense. It was to counter the idea that we’re foaming at the mouth to see video game titties, and that a “middle ground” has existed and pretty fucking recently too. One that had everyone looking very distinct while still being respectful, the body suits are boring, even if I think Kitana looks good.

Ah, I understand you now, thanks for re-explaining/clarifying.

I agree, and I also generally like the character looks and styles from Mortal Kombat XL. While I personally don't mind any of the style of looks, it's the gameplay more that interests me, I do think they hit a general sweet spot with that game.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

You mean like the backlash they’re already getting for the redesigns? That’s my entire point. This would’ve been the perfect time to try it out, but it seems like it didn’t even cross their minds.

To be honest, Tanya is the only one I saw getting ferociously criticized, everyone else is mostly getting a good overall reception, if not for their primary costumes being deemed a bit uninspired. I don't know how Kitana with a rock hard abs would be received in the current state of affairs lol

 

[Juxtapose]

Example, the badass cop Li Mei, wearing OPEN TOED HEELS, makes no freaking sense whatsoever. That, in itself, is more sexist than, for example, Mileena having a revealing cleavage.

Heels in games never make sense on almost any type of character. Revealing cleavage is a common thing in the real world. We have a series producer who walks around with her bra being clearly visible on a regular basis...

 

[Vslayer]

To be honest, Tanya is the only one I saw getting ferociously criticized, everyone else is mostly getting a good overall reception, if not for their primary costumes being deemed a bit uninspired. I don't know how Kitana with a rock hard abs would be received in the current state of affairs lol

It would make sense, she was trained since she was a child. But everyone is fine with all other dudes being ripped without any issue. Double standard folks.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

While I think it's an interesting idea, just looking at how weirdly many people received Tanya in this game, making an established character have a body too dissimilar to previous incarnations could lead to even more backlash. I vaguely remember some people calling Mileena a booblehead in MKX, stating that her head look too big for her skinny frame lol. Can't imagine what people would say if some character became chubby for example, or super muscular. Which would lead to making very small variations of body types (kitana is skinny while mileena is a little toned and sonya has more like a wrestler body) and, at this point, the whole point is kinda moot, as the bodies wouldnt be too dissimilar after all.

I'd be all in for a quadruped hexagonally-shaped D'vorah though

As long as the changes make sense though it’s fine. Cage is way skinnier than previous versions but it makes sense for him to be more lean than super muscle bound. Defined abs and maybe a bicep vein wouldn’t be overkill for a female character as athletic as MK characters. Sonya would definitely be more muscular than the others. Obviously there wouldn’t be a fat character, male or female, unless it was a new character that was just a unit.