Breakers vs Breakaway on a metered system

[Saltea Moonspell]

Breakers properties were unique to Mortal Kombat which made the game stand out from the crowed.​

-Breaker system had good foundation. It functioned properly as it should in most cases unlike breakaway which turned out to be a cluster f#ck in more than one aspect.

-Breaker system incorporated with power meters was a major part of the meta - which was another layer to the core mechanic.
- Breakaway functionality turned out to be a failure - there is no other way of putting it.

-Breakers: Some people enjoyed it others hated it. That was and always will remain subjective. I personally enjoyed it because it was another layer of depth, something I had to think about and calculate. Because we had to build meter and it was also used for special moves breaker management required smart choices.

-Regardless of what Paulo and his crew have been cooking for us, one thing is as clear as the sun: the game will require longer support in order to balance and apply proper fixes. If that part will be maintained no body will care what mechanics were used.

-SF5 is a great example that regardless of product state with good support policy things can change for good.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Breakers properties were unique to Mortal Kombat which made the game stand out from the crowed.

Lol no. Breakers didn’t happen in MK until deception. There’s quite a few games that had breakers way before that

 

[Eddy Wang]

Breakers properties were unique to Mortal Kombat which made the game stand out from the crowed.​

-Breaker system had good foundation. It functioned properly as it should in most cases unlike breakaway which turned out to be a cluster f#ck in more than one aspect.

-Breaker system incorporated with power meters was a major part of the meta - which was another layer to the core mechanic.
- Breakaway functionality turned out to be a failure - there is no other way of putting it.

-Breakers: Some people enjoyed it others hated it. That was and always will remain subjective. I personally enjoyed it because it was another layer of depth, something I had to think about and calculate. Because we had to build meter and it was also used for special moves breaker management required smart choices.

-Regardless of what Paulo and his crew have been cooking for us, one thing is as clear as the sun: the game will require longer support in order to balance and apply proper fixes. If that part will be maintained no body will care what mechanics were used.

-SF5 is a great example that regardless of product state with good support policy things can change for good.

breaker was just as bad, remember kabal on a rooftop day?

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Lol no. Breakers didn’t happen in MK until deception. There’s quite a few games that had breakers way before that

WHen you look at the main FG games that's been played worldwide you wont really have it (maybe aside from KOF and SFA series) and if they do have breaker like mechanics it its anything like it.

The franchise success started with MK9 being a reboot going through MKX. When I staid "Standout" I meant in terms of functionality/properties.
The point here is that these breakers were big part of what made these games interesting.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

breaker was just as bad, remember kabal on a rooftop day?

Eddy, I remember all too well. There is a reason why I did not mention meter functionality - because I wanted to mainly focus on the breakers/breakaway.

As mechanic stand alone it did its job and the idea behind it was good. Now the gap between meter building across the roster is another thing.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Eddy, I remember all too well. There is a reason why I did not mention meter functionality - because I wanted to mainly focus on the breakers/breakaway.

As mechanic stand alone it did its job and the idea behind it was good. Now the gap between meter building across the roster is another thing.

that is why i said it was a patch, having it there, brings the unknown variable because you don't know who might stand out in the roster, which in mk9 case, Kabal, Cyrax, Kenshi and Skarlet did, they took advantage of it better than anyone else.

 

[Anansi416]

Breakaway is the antithesis of good gameplay design. The fact that you land a hit on someone and then have the potential to eat a full combo for doing the "wrong" attack during your earned combo is very poorly thought out. If they felt like they had to keep a combo escape...why not keep breakers? Breakers at least never full combo punished the person who landed a combo. I find that change so discouraging and nonsensical as it was nothing but a downgrade.

I am in support of no breakers or breakaway. I remember over the years people going for absurd plays cause they know they can immediately break. I think matches would be a lot more satisfying and played more neutral and strategic. I am fine with breaker or no breaker...breakaway never again though.

 

[haketh]

Ideally we won’t have either, I have a large majority of Burst Mechanics but if I had to pick one it’d be Breakaway because you can punish it at least.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

that is why i said it was a patch, having it there, brings the unknown variable because you don't know who might stand out in the roster, which in mk9 case, Kabal, Cyrax, Kenshi and Skarlet did, they took advantage of it better than anyone else.

See, the "unknown variable because you dont know who might stand out in the roster..." part is understandable when you take into an account, that MK9 was the very first product and perhaps there were reasons behind this unfortunate anomaly to occur.

Knowing the above and reimplementing the mechanics to MKX it should have been properly tested across the roster and adjusted properly. Instead we ended up with identical imbalance between characters - some had meter more often then others.

Either for some reason they were not able to apply balance (to the entire meter system and how its build during the match) or they decided to drop it for the sake of changing the meter mechanics (auto-refill) during the product design phase. Judging from the the end product, the target was to simplify the mechanics so that there are less things to be concern about (meter auto-refill) was one of them, along side this decision the previous breaker mechanic had to go. Once again (generally speaking) we ended up with incomplete functionality of a new defensive mechanic that was suppose to be superior.


I hope that regardless of the design policy whatever they go for, they will conduct proper test so that history wont repeat itself for the 4th time.

 

[Eddy Wang]

See, the "unknown variable because you dont know who might stand out in the roster..." part is understandable when you take into an account, that MK9 was the very first product and perhaps there were reasons behind this unfortunate anomaly to occur.

Knowing the above and reimplementing the mechanics to MKX it should have been properly tested across the roster and adjusted properly. Instead we ended up with identical imbalance between characters - some had meter more often then others.

Either for some reason they were not able to apply balance (to the entire meter system and how its build during the match) or they decided to drop it for the sake of changing the meter mechanics (auto-refill) during the product design phase. Judging from the the end product, the target was to simplify the mechanics so that there are less things to be concern about (meter auto-refill) was one of them, along side this decision the previous breaker mechanic had to go. Once again (generally speaking) we ended up with incomplete functionality of a new defensive mechanic that was suppose to be superior.


I hope that regardless of the design policy whatever they go for, they will conduct proper test so that history wont repeat itself for the 4th time.

There is likely that history will repeat itself for the 4th time, if any escape system is attached to the game, we don't need holding hands, it's really that simple, made a mistake, get fucked.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

There is likely that history will repeat itself for the 4th time, if any escape system is attached to the game, we don't need holding hands, it's really that simple, made a mistake, get fucked.

I understand where this is coming from - based on what we've seen in the past 10 years, if they cant do it right they should drop the mechanics once and for all.

The past years had me realize that these games had a lot more issues left out than breaker systems stand alone.

You out of all people around here are very well aware of the list of things should've never pass final tests and be in the game/s.

 

[Rude]

the punishment in tekken by a combo translates that you made a very bad decision, so the attacker is rewarded with positioning and a possible life lead, it doesn't let you get away with "oh shit i just go hit by a big NO, lemme escape and try again lmao"

So why aren't you playing Tekken?

 

[Rude]

No it's not, you do a 40% damage combo at the expense of putting your character into burnout state, which then you can't use drive gauge for full 10 seconds, and each time you jump to avoid anything on the floor, the gauge refill rate slows it and takes longer to recover from.
in that state, every move you block has 2 more frames of advantage, you can't parry, use overdrive moves or drave impact, so the Devs where thoughfull on what they put in the game, and has a nice balance between using powerful attacks and be on the edge to not enter burnout, otherwise you loose part of the game mechanics for longer periods of time.

Okay. Why is this a preferable system?

 

[Eddy Wang]

So why aren't you playing Tekken?

I do, since early 2017, i have over 5k ours of play

 

[Rude]

you are missing the point, just as most members here, its not our fault we have 60% damage combos, and insane mixup options, if you guys read each other comments you will notice the pattern here.

That's exactly what you guys are afraid off, you are so afraid of being hit, that you opt for the lesser evil, which is to have a form of escape system in the game, where some other character will benefict from it non stop and abuse the entire game.

But this shouldn't be a problem, a game with no escape design in mind, forces the devs to be more thoughful about what they put in the game, what is the gauge of the damage, how it scales, gravity and so on.

The escape system it's a form of a patch that can and has proven for the past 10 years that will make the game annoying somehow.

maybe you guys need to play other fighting games where such things are non existent, it would definitely widen some perspective here.

You're acting like NRS games are the only ones with escape options. Which just isn't true. Additionally, all of this is just avoid the game being "annoying?" That's really all you have? What character in MK11 benefitted "nonstop" from breakaways? Who benefitted "nonstop" from breakers in X? How many combo breaks do you think actually happened per round?

This idea that devs aren't thoughtful about game design when these games are made by huge teams, with hundreds of thousands of hours of work put into them over the course of years of development time is insane.

Your arguments are so removed from reality.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Okay. Why is this a preferable system?

it's not prefereable, its fun.
the game gives you a balance that makes your where you want to burn you meter to, if you go over the line you will also pay for it, so the entire game premisse stands on the fact you have to play around this gimmick

 

[Rude]

I do, since early 2017, i have over 5k ours of play

So why are you here? If Tekken is better(and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way), why are you here? Why are you trying to make a completely different series like Tekken?

Better point: Tekken already exists. If you want something to play like Tekken, you could just be playing Tekken. Why do you want homogenized game design?

 

[Rude]

it's not prefereable, its fun.
the game gives you a balance that makes your where you want to burn you meter to, if you go over the line you will also pay for it, so the entire game premisse stands on the fact you have to play around this gimmick

Okay but if it isn't preferable, why are you advocating like it is? Furthermore, you do realize that simply because you enjoy a thing doesn't mean that everyone will or that it is objectively the way to go.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

You're acting like NRS games are the only ones with escape options. Which just isn't true.

You are missing the point - I think the reason why he is against it, is because NRS since MK9 has been unable to deliver a breaker system that will be well designed and will function properly.

 

[Rude]

You make a mistake, you get punished. FG 101. If you can’t understand that then idk what you’re doing playing FGs

Most likely MK1 will go down the breaker route again, and I’m cool with that. I PRAY it’s nothing like MK11 tho. Combos were already super limited in that game, and nothing was worse than punishing your opponent, them breaking away and then punishing your punish. Super flawed

I can tell there’s a lot of people in here who’ve never played any other FG besides NRS games based on the comments.

No one is saying you shouldn't get punished. This is an insane straw man. And it implies that players in games with Combo Breaker systems like GGST or KI or NRS games never got punished for mistakes. Which isn't true.

Just say you don't like making a read. From my perspective, there really isn't much of a difference between baiting a Burst in something like GG or BlazBlue and reading a breakaway attempt. The idea is fundamentally the same.

Why should - hypothetically - a character with a safe, loopable vortex(a thing that exists in several NRS games) be allowed to just go ham with the opponent having no chance of escape once hit?

As I said earlier, I think whether or not you need a breaker system comes down to the kind of fighting game you want, how meter is built, etc.

 

[Rude]

You are missing the point - I think the reason why he is against it, is because NRS since MK9 has been unable to deliver a breaker system that will be well designed and will function properly.

What do you mean by, "function properly?" MK9 was Hella glitchy when it came to meter but I can't think of a time when you had two bars, used the break option, and it just didn't come out. Unless the opponent was using nothing but specials to end the combo maybe?

When did Clash consistently not come out in Injustice? What do you mean by not functioning properly?

 

[Eddy Wang]

You're acting like NRS games are the only ones with escape options. Which just isn't true. Additionally, all of this is just avoid the game being "annoying?"

Well the NRS allows you to escape as you are taking a hit, that's pretty unique, not saying it's the only one, but it's pretty rare.
Yes i know Killer instinct does something similar but even then, there was always a counter mechanic to it even on earlier days.

That's really all you have? What character in MK11 benefitted "nonstop" from breakaways?

Geras, then Liu Kang, Then Jacqui, at some point Cetrion, Sheeva and now it seems Fujin.

The defensive meter for those characters at some point was solely for one purpose, to break out of combos, as it refueled on its own, the attacker never had to worry about management, and on any mistake they made, due to how opressive they were during the lifspan of the game, allows their meter to stay filled for longer periods of time, which by the time they get hit, they can just escape and make the situation null basically, over and over.

Who benefitted "nonstop" from breakers in X? How many combo breaks do you think actually happened per round?

Mileena in MKXL was awesome and took full advantage of the breaker system, you literally couldn't touch her has her normals were so strong, does it ring a bell? maybe a rooftop day it's a nice hint back in MK9.

This idea that devs aren't thoughtful about game design when these games are made by huge teams, with hundreds of thousands of hours of work put into them over the course of years of development time is insane.

That's false, as much as devs are devs and i do respect the time they take to bake a game, they are also humans, until a game reaches the masses, you will never know every single variant of your game no matter who you are, that's a hard fact.
It didn't stop kabal to be dominant in the game by picking rooftop day and spamming gas blast against the majority of the cast
didn't stop cyrax to be a TOD character despite being nerfed every patch
Didn't stop demolition sonya to be a character that could combo you for 10 seconds and literally use her combos to build life lead while scamming the time
Didn't stop Sheeva to be stupid at launch in MK11
or Scorpion to be mad insane on release of MK11
or Breakways to be as flawled as it was.

Your arguments are so removed from reality.

The reality is, i do play other fighting games, ever since i was 5, and maybe you should try to play some other fighting games other than Mortal Kombat, and widen your perspective, that's not an insult, it's a suggestion.

 

[Eddy Wang]

So why are you here? If Tekken is better(and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way), why are you here? Why are you trying to make a completely different series like Tekken?

Better point: Tekken already exists. If you want something to play like Tekken, you could just be playing Tekken. Why do you want homogenized game design?

So now what does this have to do with the thread in question? I think you are just going off topic, i understand you might agree to disagree, but this post its just stupid

 

[Rude]

To all these, "you get hit, you get punished, FG 101" guys, are games like KI, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, etc not real fighting games to you?

As I said before, whether or not a game should have a combo escape system largely depends on the kind of game you're making and how resources are built and used, what kind of offense the game focuses on, etc etc.

This thread is giving me brain worms. I've made my arguments and for my own sanity, I've got to dip. Maybe the Anti-Combo Escape crowd should just play Tekken. I don't even know anymore.

 

[Eddy Wang]

What do you mean by, "function properly?" MK9 was Hella glitchy when it came to meter but I can't think of a time when you had two bars, used the break option, and it just didn't come out. Unless the opponent was using nothing but specials to end the combo maybe?

When did Clash consistently not come out in Injustice? What do you mean by not functioning properly?

Do you actually understood the Opening thread?