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Breakers vs Breakaway on a metered system

What will MK1 Run with?

  • Breaker

    Votes: 37 67.3%
  • Breakaway

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • Hopefully neither

    Votes: 15 27.3%

  • Total voters
    55

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
From MK9 to MK11 we had the chance of have a meter gauge, and in a span of 10 years, one of the mechanics that followed it over was Breakers from MK9 to MKX, and Breakaway in MK11 where the Meter build on its own.

MK9/ MKX (reward tier based on how meter building worked )
S+: Land a first hit Bonus
S- : Using a special move, which would subsequently be blocked
S: Forcing characters to block an attack
A+: Using a Special move on
A: Taking a hit

Escape system:
Breaker - Allowed characters to interrupt taking damage such as combos or single hits, if standing, or airborne, as long as the player had 2 levels of meter.

Effects in game (consequences of sort)
  • It made meter management good for characters who could control the screen much better, with zoning always having meter to break while escaping and building more of it as it deals damage
  • Made characters on the losing battle a struggle to play as they could only build meter by taking hits.
  • Someone always had 2 bars of meter on the first hit, making combos less likely as there was always a chance to break after trying a risky take for a mistake with a get-out-of-jail-free card.
MKX
In MKX was similar to MK9, with the main difference being that there was a stamina system aiding the breaker system, and you could only break if you had your stamina full on top of having 2 levels of gauge meter.
I personally liked how it was on season 1, as once the opponent broke a combo, only his stamina would get depleted, this obviously would let them open to more offense, because the attacker could run back in (used to be godlike imo) But the community hated this change and wanted a system that held their hands more, and so then in season 2:
Breaker would cause both stamina to deplete slowing down the game for both, now, a zoner once again could get a first hit bonus, gain a lead, break your combo and continue to zone to build back meter to have it again by the time both stamina are back (hated this change personally)

MK11 (Passive meter)
In This game, NRS abandoned the active meter system, and transformed into a passive state, Meaning you no longer had to worry about it as, as long as it was empty, it would build on a steady rate no matter the character or what they did in the game, the only bad take was not using your meter.
MK11 (Reward tier system)
S+: Automatic refills
S+: refills, between round transitions (what?)
S+: refills when characters are on idle/grounded, or even taking a nap
S+: A new bar was added to the gauge, then it was split in half, two of them are for defensive use, the other 2 are for offense usage.

Escape system
Breakaway - Can only be used when characters are Airborne, costs 2 defensive meter

While it was different, it didn't came without its fair share of issues
  • Inputs getting eaten once a player used breakaway, making inputs messy for those trying to juggle or snuggle an extra hit after
  • No meter management needed, as losing your meter meant little, it was always building back up the moment you used breakaway, no matter where
  • Made combos less of a thing as someone always had a breakaway on the go
  • oppressive characters who once would struggle for meter, now can just push through as the meter build its made for them, on top of it, some of them were less reliant of meter, so it became a breakaway purpose only
  • Characters that were hard to find an opening on certain Matchups always had meter to breakaway for those 1 shot opportunities the weaker characters would get, negating taking significant damage that could put the other player back in the game.
On top of all this, MK11 still had the wakeup system with invincibility frames.

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While this is indeed a long analysis, i expect at this point everyone got the point that having an escape system it's the common denominator here, and that system has to go, as it creates lots of problems, not that it could not definitely be designed better, but as long as it exists, there are some of these factors that will always be dominant and ruin one aspect of fighting games Ed Boon doesn't like, you made a mistake, pay with your health.


I'm not sure, which route MK1 will take, I guess we will have to wait for June 8th to find out, i just hope it's neither, really hope they deleted both, breakers and breakaways, and just let ppl get hurt for making mistakes, having an escape system while it aids the weaker players, it also make stronger characters even more stronger, as anyone can make use of such advantage given in the game.

Which one do you expect, tell me why.
 

Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
I want this game to be a whole new experience, especially gameplay-wise. Basically, I don't want any of the shit from the past NRS games to return - least of all Breakers and Breakaways.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
Don't understand the poll options.. But I like breakaway mkx style and the gain armour mk11.... But the auto fill meter I didn't like. Mkx was the best meter system so far imo. I think MKx was better than the armour as well.
 
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Zviko

Noob
Definitely don't want MK11 breakaways back where breakaway was actually a combo starter which is such bs. Breaker from MKX is fine but make it even more limited. Whatever it is, hitting someone with a combo should really reward you, either by your opponent losing a lot of hp or losing something else if they use a combo break mechanic. Things like supers for example or whatever the important mechanic will be. Not being able to use a meter bar for certain amount of time is simply not punishing enough. Either give up hp or something else important for the whole match. That or no combo breaking mechanic at all.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
Neither, get punished for being hit. This is one of the most basic elements that should apply in any FG.
but with a combo system like MK that just means a single hit you will loose 50-80% of your life.. making a game just 1 to 3 hits... that is not fun, I do not think so anyway.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
but with a combo system like MK that just means a single hit you will loose 50-80% of your life.. making a game just 1 to 3 hits... that is not fun, I do not think so anyway.
you can make the game where big boy damage it's 45% at cost of resources, which was the milestone in MKX.
As much as i liked the season 1 MKX breaker system, there is no excuse for having a combo breaker, anyone who makes a mistake should take damage.
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
Defensive tools are necessary in fighting games, so, let's see what come up for MK 1. A defensive system is good , because is pretty boring seeing someone doing a 60% damage non stop combo in the corner, and finish a fight quickly , hitting another opponent 2 times only, giving none chance for the opponent to try to reverse the situation or minimize the huge damage somehow ..... :eek:

Despite being unpopular here, I like the breaker system more, but , could be that , as someone said, you could have , kind , 2 or 3 breakers to be used maximum per the entire fight, or just make breakers to use 3 meter bars instead of 2, something like that ..... anyway, they will explain how the defense system will work out for MK 1 along the Kombat Kasts, and we will have chance to test that more deep during the stress test and the beta test , so, let's see what happens ! :)
 
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Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
There definitely needs to be a defensive option. Can't just have offense and no defense that would be ridiculous. I would prefer breakers, but something like a parry or even the flawless block like in MK11 could be good defensive options. The only issue is flawless blocking could have too big of a skill ceiling for casuals and parry's could be ridiculously OP like in DOA6 where you could just parry the entire match lmao.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that 'meter burn' offensive and defensive options in this game will be tied to assists
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
you can make the game where big boy damage it's 45% at cost of resources, which was the milestone in MKX.
As much as i liked the season 1 MKX breaker system, there is no excuse for having a combo breaker, anyone who makes a mistake should take damage.
well my big "unpopular opinion" is larger health bars.

IMO, for a fighting game to work for players, and, this is becoming more and more import, work for spectators.. there NEEDS to be the possibility of comback. There has to be texture in the game for more than "2 hits and you are dead" "rock paper scissors"... "my turn, your turn". Defensive abilities are absolutely needed and there has to be some way, preferable not artificial, that can mean someone that just took a beating has time to come back and win.

MKx has this problem. The damage is so high that you can die nearly on a single touch, and with chip.. it may as well have been. This entire problem could be reduced by having larger health pools. So instead of a fill combo taking 45% or more for a crazy combo... it could take say 20% or 15%.

More combos, more turns, more time.. means less need for defence as you can survive to "return fire" even after guessing wrong on a mixup.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
From MK9 to MK11 we had the chance of have a meter gauge, and in a span of 10 years, one of the mechanics that followed it over was Breakers from MK9 to MKX, and Breakaway in MK11 where the Meter build on its own.

MK9/ MKX (reward tier based on how meter building worked )
S+: Land a first hit Bonus
S- : Using a special move, which would subsequently be blocked
S: Forcing characters to block an attack
A+: Using a Special move on
A: Taking a hit

Escape system:
Breaker - Allowed characters to interrupt taking damage such as combos or single hits, if standing, or airborne, as long as the player had 2 levels of meter.

Effects in game (consequences of sort)
  • It made meter management good for characters who could control the screen much better, with zoning always having meter to break while escaping and building more of it as it deals damage
  • Made characters on the losing battle a struggle to play as they could only build meter by taking hits.
  • Someone always had 2 bars of meter on the first hit, making combos less likely as there was always a chance to break after trying a risky take for a mistake with a get-out-of-jail-free card.
MKX
In MKX was similar to MK9, with the main difference being that there was a stamina system aiding the breaker system, and you could only break if you had your stamina full on top of having 2 levels of gauge meter.
I personally liked how it was on season 1, as once the opponent broke a combo, only his stamina would get depleted, this obviously would let them open to more offense, because the attacker could run back in (used to be godlike imo) But the community hated this change and wanted a system that held their hands more, and so then in season 2:
Breaker would cause both stamina to deplete slowing down the game for both, now, a zoner once again could get a first hit bonus, gain a lead, break your combo and continue to zone to build back meter to have it again by the time both stamina are back (hated this change personally)

MK11 (Passive meter)
In This game, NRS abandoned the active meter system, and transformed into a passive state, Meaning you no longer had to worry about it as, as long as it was empty, it would build on a steady rate no matter the character or what they did in the game, the only bad take was not using your meter.
MK11 (Reward tier system)
S+: Automatic refills
S+: refills, between round transitions (what?)
S+: refills when characters are on idle/grounded, or even taking a nap
S+: A new bar was added to the gauge, then it was split in half, two of them are for defensive use, the other 2 are for offense usage.

Escape system
Breakaway - Can only be used when characters are Airborne, costs 2 defensive meter

While it was different, it didn't came without its fair share of issues
  • Inputs getting eaten once a player used breakaway, making inputs messy for those trying to juggle or snuggle an extra hit after
  • No meter management needed, as losing your meter meant little, it was always building back up the moment you used breakaway, no matter where
  • Made combos less of a thing as someone always had a breakaway on the go
  • oppressive characters who once would struggle for meter, now can just push through as the meter build its made for them, on top of it, some of them were less reliant of meter, so it became a breakaway purpose only
  • Characters that were hard to find an opening on certain Matchups always had meter to breakaway for those 1 shot opportunities the weaker characters would get, negating taking significant damage that could put the other player back in the game.
On top of all this, MK11 still had the wakeup system with invincibility frames.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While this is indeed a long analysis, i expect at this point everyone got the point that having an escape system it's the common denominator here, and that system has to go, as it creates lots of problems, not that it could not definitely be designed better, but as long as it exists, there are some of these factors that will always be dominant and ruin one aspect of fighting games Ed Boon doesn't like, you made a mistake, pay with your health.


I'm not sure, which route MK1 will take, I guess we will have to wait for June 8th to find out, i just hope it's neither, really hope they deleted both, breakers and breakaways, and just let ppl get hurt for making mistakes, having an escape system while it aids the weaker players, it also make stronger characters even more stronger, as anyone can make use of such advantage given in the game.

Which one do you expect, tell me why.
This is a whole lot of words to say you don't want people to have a chance to get out of combos.

Especially when we're assuming that getting hit in a game like say, MKX, is entirely based on being a "weaker player" and not guessing wrong on a 50/50 or getting hit with an armored launcher.

Pretty sure in a game with no escape system at all that characters with vortexes would be pretty fucked up.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Can you imagine playing Injustice 2 with no way to escape combos or clash? Pretty sure like half the cast would loop you to death(I'm exaggerating, of course, but the point is valid).

The more I think about this argument, the crazier it gets. Hell, even anime fighters have Burst and burst-like mechanics.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
you can make the game where big boy damage it's 45% at cost of resources, which was the milestone in MKX.
As much as i liked the season 1 MKX breaker system, there is no excuse for having a combo breaker, anyone who makes a mistake should take damage.
Based on this logic, Fatal Blows were fine, right? Shouldn't matter that they had armor, you only got hit with one when you made a mistake.

Eddy, this is some awful argumentation. I respect you more than this.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Neither, get punished for being hit. This is one of the most basic elements that should apply in any FG.
Not you too.

Sir if this were real in any Injustice game or MKX, you would die without ever being able to press a button.

Imagine fighting Batgirl with no way to ever clash. You'd just die, her vortex was safe!


I swear I feel like people never want to let their opponent fight back or have to make a read. Like am I in crazy town?
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
but with a combo system like MK that just means a single hit you will loose 50-80% of your life.. making a game just 1 to 3 hits... that is not fun, I do not think so anyway.
That's simple enough with damage adjustments, but even without, depending on the game it could be just "how it is". Chipp can be killed in GGST without bar to break in one combo by some characters. In Tekken, there's no breaker at all, and some optimal real-world combos can take 75% with wall carry, very optimal with characters like Akuma, Fahk, Geese, etc. Not much of an issue I think.

Not you too.

Sir if this were real in any Injustice game or MKX, you would die without ever being able to press a button.

Imagine fighting Batgirl with no way to ever clash. You'd just die, her vortex was safe!


I swear I feel like people never want to let their opponent fight back or have to make a read. Like am I in crazy town?
I think NRS has evolved far from their MK9/Inj1/MKX days balance-wise with Inj2 and MK11. MK11 may not have been a game for me out of the bunch, but was clearly the most balanced. With slight gameplay tweaks or adjustments it wouldn't have needed breaker, and a new MK game will very likely be even more balanced than MK11 was and likely early on I'd guess too. KOF 15 is epic and doesn't have a breaker, SF6 is epic and doesn't have a breaker, etc. I think NRS, having progressed legitimately every game in a row positively, could probably pretty easily make a system without breaker if they wanted too.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Split meter. Breakers. Still dependent on defensive meter but scaling cost for each breaker in a match until you cant anymore.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
That's simple enough with damage adjustments, but even without, depending on the game it could be just "how it is". Chipp can be killed in GGST without bar to break in one combo by some characters. In Tekken, there's no breaker at all, and some optimal real-world combos can take 75% with wall carry, very optimal with characters like Akuma, Fahk, Geese, etc. Not much of an issue I think.



I think NRS has evolved far from their MK9/Inj1/MKX days balance-wise with Inj2 and MK11. MK11 may not have been a game for me out of the bunch, but was clearly the most balanced. With slight gameplay tweaks or adjustments it wouldn't have needed breaker, and a new MK game will very likely be even more balanced than MK11 was and likely early on I'd guess too. KOF 15 is epic and doesn't have a breaker, SF6 is epic and doesn't have a breaker, etc. I think NRS, having progressed legitimately every game in a row positively, could probably pretty easily make a system without breaker if they wanted too.
Damage in SF6(from what I've seen), isn't nearly as high as the vast majority of NRS games. I can't imagine not having an escape option when you're caught in a Geras combo that can do 40%.

Every game is different and what is appropriate in one game wouldn't work in another. Since we've seen nothing of MK1 gameplay, we can only go by precedent. And the precedent with NRS games leans toward big damage and characters with vortexes.

I think that not having a combo escape option vs a loopable vortex is insane.

Also, something being "how it is" isn't necessarily a good thing. Pretty sure every character has access to Burst in GGST, so even Chipp has a chance.