Breakers vs Breakaway on a metered system

[SaltShaker]

Damage in SF6(from what I've seen), isn't nearly as high as the vast majority of NRS games. I can't imagine not having an escape option when you're caught in a Geras combo that can do 40%.

Every game is different and what is appropriate in one game wouldn't work in another. Since we've seen nothing of MK1 gameplay, we can only go by precedent. And the precedent with NRS games leans toward big damage and characters with vortexes.

I think that not having a combo escape option vs a loopable vortex is insane.

Also, something being "how it is" isn't necessarily a good thing. Pretty sure every character has access to Burst in GGST, so even Chipp has a chance.

I don't see anything wrong with that though. If Geras can hit you with "Combo X" for 40%, that should be part of the gameplay. Say you get hit with it again, you lost 80%. So basically you lost a lot of life for either guessing wrong twice or making a mistake twice. Rather than having a bailout mechanic for getting it. Quan Chi in MKX had a great vortex, if one option was a bit more punishable that would have been a prime example of where breaker wouldn't be needed versus how it currently is needed.

This part I'd say just not having "safe" rewarding loopable vortex options. If something is say for example, both options unsafe, or, "OH option safe Low unsafe" or "OH unsafe Low Option safe", I think that's perfectly fine too and wouldn't need breaker, you guessed wrong and get punished. Getting combo'd because you guessed wrong and MK9 style breaker or Injustice clash isn't a deal breaker or anything, but I'd definitely prefer it not exist.

Yea, but it's probably a good example of what I mean is problematic. It is part of the strategy, and you could be mid combo, and "punish someone" for doing a burst, doing even more damage. In Chipp's case, he takes a ton of damage, but can also delete your lifebar so quickly, pretty solid Glass Cannon design. Burst is just added to give the comeback mechanic option to the game.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

I think kameos are gonna function as this game's version of Breaker. Risk/reward of using your assist for offense, but then having it on cooldown meaning they can't break you out of a combo

 

[Rude]

I don't see anything wrong with that though. If Geras can hit you with "Combo X" for 40%, that should be part of the gameplay. Say you get hit with it again, you lost 80%. So basically you lost a lot of life for either guessing wrong twice or making a mistake twice. Rather than having a bailout mechanic for getting it. Quan Chi in MKX had a great vortex, if one option was a bit more punishable that would have been a prime example of where breaker wouldn't be needed versus how it currently is needed.

This part I'd say just not having "safe" rewarding loopable vortex options. If something is say for example, both options unsafe, or, "OH option safe Low unsafe" or "OH unsafe Low Option safe", I think that's perfectly fine too and wouldn't need breaker, you guessed wrong and get punished. Getting combo'd because you guessed wrong and MK9 style breaker or Injustice clash isn't a deal breaker or anything, but I'd definitely prefer it not exist.

Yea, but it's probably a good example of what I mean is problematic. It is part of the strategy, and you could be mid combo, and "punish someone" for doing a burst, doing even more damage. In Chipp's case, he takes a ton of damage, but can also delete your lifebar so quickly, pretty solid Glass Cannon design. Burst is just added to give the comeback mechanic option to the game.

It's true that you can bait a Burst and punish it. I'm fine with that, but not having an option at all seems kinda nuts if we're going by NRS' current standard when it comes to damage output.

Also, I don't see what's harmful about having breaker as an option. It largely depends on how meter is built, right? In X, blocked hits and specials built hella meter, so naturally you could see breaks more often.

And if you did a break and resent the situation and the opponent gets hit, isn't that their fault too? The pendulum swings both ways.

Then you get into combos. When they're smaller and do less damage, people are unhappy. If they're longer and do more damage, you run the risk of "guess wrong twice and die" scenarios.

I think first you'd really need to decide what kind of fighting game you want. The more aggressive or outlandish you want it to be, the more some kind of comeback mechanic is needed, in my opinion.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I think kameos are gonna function as this game's version of Breaker. Risk/reward of using your assist for offense, but then having it on cooldown meaning they can't break you out of a combo

That would be dope

 

[SaltShaker]

It's true that you can bait a Burst and punish it. I'm fine with that, but not having an option at all seems kinda nuts if we're going by NRS' current standard when it comes to damage output.

Also, I don't see what's harmful about having breaker as an option. It largely depends on how meter is built, right? In X, blocked hits and specials built hella meter, so naturally you could see breaks more often.

And if you did a break and resent the situation and the opponent gets hit, isn't that their fault too? The pendulum swings both ways.

Then you get into combos. When they're smaller and do less damage, people are unhappy. If they're longer and do more damage, you run the risk of "guess wrong twice and die" scenarios.

I think first you'd really need to decide what kind of fighting game you want. The more aggressive or outlandish you want it to be, the more some kind of comeback mechanic is needed, in my opinion.

Yea I think your point makes sense and has merit. They'd have to likely change some game structure to make it work without a breaker style system which may or may not be better for MK. Games like say Tekken, the more you level up while still exciting becomes "slower" and slower the higher you level up, because in reality two combos are death in many cases. With MK/Inj, while this still might be true sometimes to a certain extent, having a breaker system allows more aggressive play when otherwise you might not. I wouldn't want them to change the pace and feel of NRS style games either, so there's an argument that the breakers are a necessary mechanic.

I do think though that if you break and it's part of the system you should completely break away, and the mind game should be part of the break itself not how they fall or how they break. I always felt like Injustice did the clash system perfectly, including the meter bars and giving the health back or health damage, allowing the mind game to be part of the clash itself, and resetting neutral after. In contrast, how GGST does burst, it's probably my most hated breaker mechanic in all fighting games. If MK adopted an Injustice style clash as a breaker I'd probably be much more in the corner of it.

 

[spidey300]

like some people have been saying. just take out any form of break mechanics. get punished for getting hit. clearly we're past the looping offense of mkx. mk11 basically ruined combos. time for a return to form. probably depends on how this assist system works too. thats the problem with todays fighting game player and nrs players in general. afraid of getting hit

 

[theotherguy]

afraid of getting hit

When you have the ability to do 50% damage, then yes, of course you're afraid of getting hit. Admittedly that is in almost all cases with a FB, but all it takes is 3 hits and you're finished. There's no fun in playing when you can't barely get a hit in the game.

At least with breakers/breakaway you get that opportunity back once or twice more during the match.

I have much more fun when there's a back and forth between two players doing smaller combos, than getting hit twice with a 35+% combo and then hit confirm into FB.

mk11 basically ruined combos.

Not sure if this is about combos being shorter, or breakaway causing juggles to drop.

But either way I still don't get it. Played plenty of people knocking out 10-15+hit combos that to me feel like they go on forever. If i had some defensive bars i'd use them, if not it's just put the controller down and enjoy the ride.

Whatever they do in MK1, i hope there is some form of risk/reward like armour breakers > breakaway. Makes it much more interesting than just breaker and reset neutral.

 

[Rude]

This thread is exposing how many people:

A) Hate to make reads

B) Want a one player game.

 

[BarakaTile]

This thread is exposing how many people:

A) Hate to make reads

B) Want a one player game.

Just don't get hit brother, Tekken's doing just fine with no breakers.

 

[Rude]

Just don't get hit brother, Tekken's doing just fine with no breakers.

True bestie! The best players never get hit. Ever!

 

[Pterodactyl]

There definitely needs to be a defensive option. Can't just have offense and no defense that would be ridiculous. I would prefer breakers, but something like a parry or even the flawless block like in MK11 could be good defensive options. The only issue is flawless blocking could have too big of a skill ceiling for casuals and parry's could be ridiculously OP like in DOA6 where you could just parry the entire match lmao.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that 'meter burn' offensive and defensive options in this game will be tied to assists

There can be defensive mechanics but I don't think those mechanics should revolve around invalidating someone punishing your mistake via completely ending their reward/turn.

Most other fighters do it right, the defensive mechanics are there to help you avoid being opened up or pressured in the first place, not a get out of jail free card.

Get out of jail free cards basically never satisfying as the attacker and even as the defender you don't get a rush from doing it because it takes very little skill unlike say a committed(as in unsafe if you make the wrong read) parry, or even dodge mechanic.

 

[Pterodactyl]

True bestie! The best players never get hit. Ever!

They get hit and punished accordingly.

The person eating the combo made the wrong read, they don't deserve to enforce a 2nd read on the person who already WON the first exchange.

Like seriously, calling Tekken or SF "one player" games because if you get comboed you actually get comboed is ridiculous.

The defensive read should be preventative.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

I think Breakers worked so well in MKX because it complimented the overall tone of the game. Overwhelming offensive options were met with an extremely powerful defensive option.

As weird of a comparison this is, I wonder if MK1 Kameos will be like the assists from that latest Jojo's Bizarre Adventure game. Where your assists have normal offensive attacks, and combo breaking defensive attacks. Each one having their own, separate limited number of stocks. With the combo breaking assists even being parryable, letting you continue your combo on a good read.

 

[Juggs]

I’m not a fan of combo breakers in general. But IF they HAVE to have them, I want them to cost a decent amount of meter, but also reset neutral. You shouldn’t be put in a disadvantageous position because you got the opponent into a combo. It promotes bad play, period.

 

[NoCharge]

MK9 meter system was the best, one meter for all: offence and deffence. You had to choose how nad what to play. MK11 was the worst, MKX too complex. I hope MK meter system returns.

 

[spidey300]

When you have the ability to do 50% damage, then yes, of course you're afraid of getting hit. Admittedly that is in almost all cases with a FB, but all it takes is 3 hits and you're finished. There's no fun in playing when you can't barely get a hit in the game.

At least with breakers/breakaway you get that opportunity back once or twice more during the match.

I have much more fun when there's a back and forth between two players doing smaller combos, than getting hit twice with a 35+% combo and then hit confirm into FB.



Not sure if this is about combos being shorter, or breakaway causing juggles to drop.

But either way I still don't get it. Played plenty of people knocking out 10-15+hit combos that to me feel like they go on forever. If i had some defensive bars i'd use them, if not it's just put the controller down and enjoy the ride.

Whatever they do in MK1, i hope there is some form of risk/reward like armour breakers > breakaway. Makes it much more interesting than just breaker and reset neutral.

that's because nrs is too stupid to know how to find a good balance in their game mechanics. they make some of the most boring gameplay in mk11 while making it extremely volatile at times. they tried way too hard to catch that slow methodical footsies street fighter appeal but mk should be about degeneracy, grime, and oppression. combos being shorter and juggles dropping are both terrible parts of mk11. it's really just the spice and the combo variety. more characters than others are severely limited by the terrible custom design. they had a solid foundation with mkx and variations and then they shat all over it.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Based on this logic, Fatal Blows were fine, right? Shouldn't matter that they had armor, you only got hit with one when you made a mistake.

Eddy, this is some awful argumentation. I respect you more than this.

you are missing the point, just as most members here, its not our fault we have 60% damage combos, and insane mixup options, if you guys read each other comments you will notice the pattern here.

That's exactly what you guys are afraid off, you are so afraid of being hit, that you opt for the lesser evil, which is to have a form of escape system in the game, where some other character will benefict from it non stop and abuse the entire game.

But this shouldn't be a problem, a game with no escape design in mind, forces the devs to be more thoughful about what they put in the game, what is the gauge of the damage, how it scales, gravity and so on.

The escape system it's a form of a patch that can and has proven for the past 10 years that will make the game annoying somehow.

maybe you guys need to play other fighting games where such things are non existent, it would definitely widen some perspective here.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Damage in SF6(from what I've seen), isn't nearly as high as the vast majority of NRS games. I can't imagine not having an escape option when you're caught in a Geras combo that can do 40%.

Every game is different and what is appropriate in one game wouldn't work in another. Since we've seen nothing of MK1 gameplay, we can only go by precedent. And the precedent with NRS games leans toward big damage and characters with vortexes.

I think that not having a combo escape option vs a loopable vortex is insane.

Also, something being "how it is" isn't necessarily a good thing. Pretty sure every character has access to Burst in GGST, so even Chipp has a chance.

No it's not, you do a 40% damage combo at the expense of putting your character into burnout state, which then you can't use drive gauge for full 10 seconds, and each time you jump to avoid anything on the floor, the gauge refill rate slows it and takes longer to recover from.
in that state, every move you block has 2 more frames of advantage, you can't parry, use overdrive moves or drave impact, so the Devs where thoughfull on what they put in the game, and has a nice balance between using powerful attacks and be on the edge to not enter burnout, otherwise you loose part of the game mechanics for longer periods of time.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Yea I think your point makes sense and has merit. They'd have to likely change some game structure to make it work without a breaker style system which may or may not be better for MK. Games like say Tekken, the more you level up while still exciting becomes "slower" and slower the higher you level up, because in reality two combos are death in many cases. With MK/Inj, while this still might be true sometimes to a certain extent, having a breaker system allows more aggressive play when otherwise you might not. I wouldn't want them to change the pace and feel of NRS style games either, so there's an argument that the breakers are a necessary mechanic.

I do think though that if you break and it's part of the system you should completely break away, and the mind game should be part of the break itself not how they fall or how they break. I always felt like Injustice did the clash system perfectly, including the meter bars and giving the health back or health damage, allowing the mind game to be part of the clash itself, and resetting neutral after. In contrast, how GGST does burst, it's probably my most hated breaker mechanic in all fighting games. If MK adopted an Injustice style clash as a breaker I'd probably be much more in the corner of it.

trilogy had no breakers and was an amazing game.

 

[Eddy Wang]

True bestie! The best players never get hit. Ever!

the punishment in tekken by a combo translates that you made a very bad decision, so the attacker is rewarded with positioning and a possible life lead, it doesn't let you get away with "oh shit i just go hit by a big NO, lemme escape and try again lmao"

 

[Eddy Wang]

I’m not a fan of combo breakers in general. But IF they HAVE to have them, I want them to cost a decent amount of meter, but also reset neutral. You shouldn’t be put in a disadvantageous position because you got the opponent into a combo. It promotes bad play, period.

that's exactly the point, where is the reward of the player who actually went to lenghts to land a clean hit combo starter? just to get ruined by a breaker and then he has to try it again?

 

[BecomingDeath13]

Give us unlimited breakers so every time someone pokes you you can break it and have breakers work against throws. Break everything. Also unlimited match time so you can truly enjoy a breaker battle as you slowly chip each other down to nothing. Who needs combos? Just 1 attack button. 1 breaker button. 1 throw button. The kameos? They just run in and flip you off and it deals unbreakable damage to your ego.

10/10 Best fighting game ever. You're welcome.

 

[Espionage]

Neither, Eat the full combo.

Can this comment please be understood.

The Breaker system is stupid!

The Breakaway system is stupid!

It should never come back in a Mortal Kombat game.

Does anyone remember the terror that was A F0xy Grampa with Mileena in MKX? You literally couldn't really touch him with Mileena because when you finally got in he could break and he could simply out footsie you with her normals. Getting in against characters like this isn't fun because once you get in they always break. You should be rewarded for finally getting in.

Kabal was the same in MK9 where it was instant air Gas blast repeatedly building meter and then when you get in Kabal could break. Remove breakers and it makes the match-ups a lot easier to handle. If you are kept at bay without breakers then I would respect it.

Top tier characters always have ways of building meter and then when you finally get in they can break.

So removing breakers would at the very least reward the player for getting in.

Eat a full combo!

Rewards should be given to those that get the hit regardless of the playstyle.

Breakers are just a bad mechanic.

Breakaways are an even worse mechanic but both are just bad.

I am praying Netherrealm gets rid of them completely.

I hate breakers with a passion so one can only hope they never come back.

 

[xKhaoTik]

You make a mistake, you get punished. FG 101. If you can’t understand that then idk what you’re doing playing FGs

Most likely MK1 will go down the breaker route again, and I’m cool with that. I PRAY it’s nothing like MK11 tho. Combos were already super limited in that game, and nothing was worse than punishing your opponent, them breaking away and then punishing your punish. Super flawed

I can tell there’s a lot of people in here who’ve never played any other FG besides NRS games based on the comments.

 

[Juxtapose]

I can tell there’s a lot of people in here who’ve never played any other FG besides NRS games based on the comments.

Killer Instinct's Combo Breaker system, for example, is fantastic and very challenging to use. So many mind games with it with Counter Breakers.