MK2 Tier List 2020?

[MKB]

What's this? MK2 discussion? I'm being called back from the dead...

Unless we are discussing UMK2 or MK2 Plus, the vanilla MK2 tier list has been done to death and there are plenty of charts out there in these forums which various players, including myself, have detailed with a fine tooth comb.

 

[ded]

Can you please elaborate more about it? Are the tools of those other characters are that better in comparison to Reptile's? Or it's Reptile's gameplan?

it's both. mkII, when played on tournaments, is basically a turtle fest with most characters (same applies for mkda btw). however, reptile is completely defenseless and the only plus, he could have, is the acid spit.

the only pro mk2 player, who defended reptile back in days was KillerMiller or something (from Germany) and even he said the character is bottom tier, although not the worst character tho.

 

[Roy Arkon]

it's both. mkII, when played on tournaments, is basically a turtle fest with most characters (same applies for mkda btw). however, reptile is completely defenseless and the only plus, he could have, is the acid spit.

the only pro mk2 player, who defended reptile back in days was KillerMiller or something (from Germany) and even he said the character is bottom tier, although not the worst character tho.

But Reptile also has the Forceball. Yes the Forceball doesn't work the same way as it does since UMK3 (being exploded on the spot if the opponent manages to jump over it in MK2, rather then go full screen until the end like the Acid Spit since UMK3), and of course he only has one Forceball rather then 2, but it still allows Reptile to control the pace of the match, and Reptile can still have both projectile on the screen at the same time, something that no other character in the game can do, nor almost no other character could do in any MK or NRS game since then (and by that, I mean having 2 different projectiles with different properties, speeds and trajectories, not a double or triple projectile shot like Shang Tsung's Double or Triple Fire Skull). That's the main thing that made Reptile's Zoning so strong in UMK3 onward. So what is that he really misses?

 

[Juxtapose]

I made a new one recently.

View attachment 16808

I can make a new UMK3 2020 tier list discussion thread. But one is made almost once a year at this point. So probably won’t make a thread for it now that I think about it, lmao.

Cool; how'd Kitana get this high on the list? Jabs?

 

[AREZ God of War]

But Reptile also has the Forceball. Yes the Forceball doesn't work the same way as it does since UMK3 (being exploded on the spot if the opponent manages to jump over it in MK2, rather then go full screen until the end like the Acid Spit since UMK3), and of course he only has one Forceball rather then 2, but it still allows Reptile to control the pace of the match, and Reptile can still have both projectile on the screen at the same time, something that no other character in the game can do, nor almost no other character could do in any MK or NRS game since then (and by that, I mean having 2 different projectiles with different properties, speeds and trajectories, not a double or triple projectile shot like Shang Tsung's Double or Triple Fire Skull). That's the main thing that made Reptile's Zoning so strong in UMK3 onward. So what is that he really misses?

Freddy, Kabal, Sektor in MK9 for starters, MKA Hsu Hao, Stryker, Sareena ....

What's this? MK2 discussion? I'm being called back from the dead...

Unless we are discussing UMK2 or MK2 Plus, the vanilla MK2 tier list has been done to death and there are plenty of charts out there in these forums which various players, including myself, have detailed with a fine tooth comb.

change your name back Bill!!!! What is this MKB stuff?

Cool; how'd Kitana get this high on the list? Jabs?

IAFT

 

[Roy Arkon]

Freddy, Kabal, Sektor in MK9 for starters, MKA Hsu Hao, Stryker, Sareena ....

What those characters have to do with what I was asking?

 

[AREZ God of War]

What those characters have to do with what I was asking?

Being able to have 2 projectiles or "like-projectiles" on the screen at once

 

[Roy Arkon]

Being able to have 2 projectiles or "like-projectiles" on the screen at once

I did say that a few other characters could've also do it too, it's just that only very few did, and some of them could've only do it with a very specific order. And out of the characters you've mentioned, Freddy (MK9) and Stryker (MKA) couldn't do it. Until the could've shoot a 2nd projectile, the first one already exploded/left the screen. Even Kabal, while he technically can do it, he can only do it after instant Jump Gas Blast, either with 2nd one in a row or one into Buzz Saw, while Reptile can do all of his projectiles on the ground. As for Sareena, while she technically does that, she does it differently, because all of her Knives are on the same input, trajectory, height and speed, the real mixup comes in how many Knives she throws each time. Which is kinda like what Shang Tsung can do in MK2 and MK3, and I've stated in my comment that Shang Tsung case's isn't include, so it's Sareena's case. And finally, you need to take into account of the character can only do it while spending meter for the projectiles, because Reptile in MK9 and MKX, doesn't need to spend meter to have 2 or 3 projectiles at once.

The only characters in MK and NRS games that can do it are:

1. Reptile (MK2, MK3, MK9 and MKX)
2. Skarlet (MK11, thanks to Blood Ball and then any version of her Blood Tentacle, and only in the first 2 Variations)
3. Starfire (IJ2, either Starblast or Stardust and then Starbolt, she can do the Starblast and Starbolt both on the ground and in the air)
4. Hsu Hao (MKA, Bouncing Death and then any of his other projectiles)
5. Sektor (MK9, any of his Up Missiles and then Straight Missile)

 

[AREZ God of War]

I did say that a few other characters could've also do it too, it's just that only very few did, and some of them could've only do it with a very specific order. And out of the characters you've mentioned, Freddy (MK9) and Stryker (MKA) couldn't do it. Until the could've shoot a 2nd projectile, the first one already exploded/left the screen. Even Kabal, while he technically can do it, he can only do it after instant Jump Gas Blast, either with 2nd one in a row or one into Buzz Saw, while Reptile can do all of his projectiles on the ground. As for Sareena, while she technically does that, she does it differently, because all of her Knives are on the same input, trajectory, height and speed, the real mixup comes in how many Knives she throws each time. Which is kinda like what Shang Tsung can do in MK2 and MK3, and I've stated in my comment that Shang Tsung case's isn't include, so it's Sareena's case. And finally, you need to take into account of the character can only do it while spending meter for the projectiles, because Reptile in MK9 and MKX, doesn't need to spend meter to have 2 or 3 projectiles at once.Jip

The only characters in MK and NRS games that can do it are:

1. Reptile (MK2, MK3, MK9 and MKX)
2. Skarlet (MK11, thanks to Blood Ball and then any version of her Blood Tentacle, and only in the first 2 Variations)
3. Starfire (IJ2, either Starblast or Stardust and then Starbolt, she can do the Starblast and Starbolt both on the ground and in the air)
4. Hsu Hao (MKA, Bouncing Death and then any of his other projectiles)
5. Sektor (MK9, any of his Up Missiles and then Straight Missile)

Pretty sure Stryker could taser with grenades on screen, Freddy could Sweet Dreams and/or Hellspike during projectiles - frame-traps galore, Sareena's knives were all individual inputs, there was no move to throw more than 1 so absolutely nothing like Shang or MK3 Jax but she could have several on screen according to how fast you could do the input and you forgot Sektor's Flame Thrower, and i forgot MK9 Kitana

 

[Roy Arkon]

Pretty sure Stryker could taser with grenades on screen, Freddy could Sweet Dreams and/or Hellspike during projectiles - frame-traps galore, Sareena's knives were all individual inputs, there was no move to throw more than 1 so absolutely nothing like Shang or MK3 Jax but she could have several on screen according to how fast you could do the input and you forgot Sektor's Flame Thrower, and i forgot MK9 Kitana

No, Stryker and Freddy couldn't have done it, by the time Stryker uses the Taser, the Grenades already exploded. Same thing with Freddy. Sareena's Knives were indeed one input (B,F,2), it's just that after she throws the first Knife, you can keep pressing 2 until she throws up to 4 Knives. So yes, it is closer to MK2 Shang Tsung rather then Reptile, because Shang could alter between 1, 2, or 3 Fire Skulls, while Sareena could've throw any Knives from 1 to 4, and while Sareena can input the commend after the last Knife is still on screen, the mix-up is about how many Knives she is gonna throw at each time, just like Shang Tsung, as the projectiles are in the same height, speed and trajectory, and not like Reptile with Slow and Fast Forceballs and the Acid Spit, or Hsu Hao in MKA with Bouncing Death and then the Laser or the Thunder Klap, who can have more then one projectile on the screen while the properties of each of them is different due to each of them coming from a different input at a time.

As for Kitana in MK9, she throws 2 fans on the ground by default, it's you put 2 different inputs for each fan. And even by the time she throws a ground double Fan after an air Fan, the air Fan is already out of the screen. And even if she could, it would be more like Kabal, and as I've said, it's not the same case as Reptile.

And yes I forgot about Sektor's Flamethrower, it is only a mid-range projectile but can still go after an Up Missile.

 

[Juggs]

Cool; how'd Kitana get this high on the list? Jabs?

Mainly how strong her instant air fan is in a meta that glitch/kara jabs are so prevalent in. Also her jabs too, female ninja jabs are some of the best in the game.

 

[AREZ God of War]

No, Stryker and Freddy couldn't have done it, by the time Stryker uses the Taser, the Grenades already exploded. Same thing with Freddy. Sareena's Knives were indeed one input (B,F,2), it's just that after she throws the first Knife, you can keep pressing 2 until she throws up to 4 Knives. So yes, it is closer to MK2 Shang Tsung rather then Reptile, because Shang could alter between 1, 2, or 3 Fire Skulls, while Sareena could've throw any Knives from 1 to 4, and while Sareena can input the commend after the last Knife is still on screen, the mix-up is about how many Knives she is gonna throw at each time, just like Shang Tsung, as the projectiles are in the same height, speed and trajectory, and not like Reptile with Slow and Fast Forceballs and the Acid Spit, or Hsu Hao in MKA with Bouncing Death and then the Laser or the Thunder Klap, who can have more then one projectile on the screen while the properties of each of them is different due to each of them coming from a different input at a time.

As for Kitana in MK9, she throws 2 fans on the ground by default, it's you put 2 different inputs for each fan. And even by the time she throws a ground double Fan after an air Fan, the air Fan is already out of the screen. And even if she could, it would be more like Kabal, and as I've said, it's not the same case as Reptile.

And yes I forgot about Sektor's Flamethrower, it is only a mid-range projectile but can still go after an Up Missile.

I must have missed the rule book entirely

 

[Roy Arkon]

I have found even more MK2 Reptile matches, all that are from the last January, from a tournament called Finish Him 2020.

The first is with Empana taking the 2nd match and the whole set with Reptile after beating Tucu and his Jax, that Reptile match starts at 56:12. The 2nd Reptile match is with Ivanovic (the one who used Reptile against Mileena in the vid that I've showed earlier in the thread) using Reptile against Empana and his Raiden in the final match of the set, and he won while also getting a Flawless with Reptile on the final round. The match starts at 01:01:10

Another match from the same tourney, Benito used Reptile against in the 2nd match of a set against Thony MK and Liu Kang, and he won. The match starts at 02:15

I understand what @ded is saying regarding Reptile, but at the same time it's clear that Reptile can go with the top tiers of MK2 as long as you put the work for him. I think this indicates that Reptile is a mid tier, that is still viable with the proper work.

 

[ded]

@Roy Arkon i am in no position to comment these matches, as i've not played competitively mk2 since more than a decade. based on my experience and people who i've played with, a pro reptile has absolutely no chance against pro jax.

and as i've already mentioned, everybody is free to give their opinion. if you want, you can put reptile in mid-tier tho

 

[Roy Arkon]

@Roy Arkon i am in no position to comment these matches, as i've not played competitively mk2 since more than a decade. based on my experience and people who i've played with, a pro reptile has absolutely no chance against pro jax.

and as i've already mentioned, everybody is free to give his opinion. if you want, you can put reptile in mid-tier tho

I see, so I guess that I will go with what I said earlier, that Reptile is indeed a mid-tier character, in today's meta of MK2, since the indications are all there.

 

[Icefyre]

I see, so I guess that I will go with what I said earlier, that Reptile is indeed a mid-tier character, in today's meta of MK2, since the indications are all there.

You seem to be confusing tiers with playability. He’s still the worst character in the game, but it doesn’t make him unplayable. If you want to say he’s “mid-tier” in order to represent that he’s a playable character, sure, but it doesn’t change that he’s last place on the list. The old arguments for his placement still stand unless you’re playing a different version of the game, as the mechanics have not changed since then.

I encourage you to play and have fun with him though. He’s still fun to play. Against anybody equally skilled or better you’re going to struggle, but that makes victory that much more satisfying.

 

[AREZ God of War]

I think a lot of people don't realize that not every game has the same type of tier level classification for instance MK11 only has a few because of balance so S, A+,A, A-, B+ what have you......

But you take a game like MVC2 or MK9 or something along those lines, you have more levels of low tier lile C, D, F or worse because some characters are just so bad they can't be viable... they just need several more tiers just to SHOW YOU HOW MUCH WORSE they really are compared to the S and A+ tiers

In some games B or B+ can be viable where in others they are the weakest of the worst and atm, we're discussing a game with a mere 12 characters with 3-4 already composing the S-tier

 

[Roy Arkon]

@Icefyre and @AREZ God of War

I'm aware of all of that. And that's also a part of the reason why I asked for an updated tier list at the OP, because if Reptile is the 2nd worst character in the game at worst (and not the actual worst, there is also Baraka who I at least didn't see him being used in any recent tourney) but he can still be playable, does that mean that he is really that bad that his placement should be that low compared to the rest of the roster? All of what I've seen, is that he just needs a lot more work, but "more work" doesn't conditioning the viability of a character. Kabal in MK9 needed a ton of work in comparison to the rest of the roster, yet Kabal was still the best character in MK9 without any doubt.

And even if Reptile really is the worst, yet still being playable what does that mean for the overall balance of MK2? After all, MK11 has tiers, but like AREZ said, it has a lot less tiers because of the overall balance of the game, so while their are characters that are worse then others, every character in MK11 is viable. So maybe in MK2, the tier list that should be presented isn't as dividing. Again, that's why I asked for an up to date tier list for MK2.

 

[Icefyre]

Let me propose a hypothetical scenario.

If a character has a 4-6 matchup against every other character in the game, he/she is the worst in the game by default. However, a 4-6 MU isn't unplayable, you'll just have to work harder. That doesn't change anything about his/her "tier" placement or the fact that he/she is the worst in the game. I'm not saying this is the case with Reptile or not, merely pointing out the distinction between a character's tier placement and whether or not the character is playable.

We're telling you Reptile is the worst in the game, and that the old reasoning for that claim is still valid. We're not telling you that you can't win with him if you play him, especially if you're not competing.

Your Kabal comparison is moot because that's a reference to how technically challenging the character is to play at full potential, whereas with Reptile it's a reference to how hard it is to play as him due to limitations. Apples and oranges.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Let me propose a hypothetical scenario.

If a character has a 4-6 matchup against every other character in the game, he/she is the worst in the game by default. However, a 4-6 MU isn't unplayable, you'll just have to work harder. That doesn't change anything about his/her "tier" placement or the fact that he/she is the worst in the game. I'm not saying this is the case with Reptile or not, merely pointing out the distinction between a character's tier placement and whether or not the character is playable.

We're telling you Reptile is the worst in the game, and that the old reasoning for that claim is still valid. We're not telling you that you can't win with him if you play him, especially if you're not competing.

Your Kabal comparison is moot because that's a reference to how technically challenging the character is to play at full potential, whereas with Reptile it's a reference to how hard it is to play as him due to limitations. Apples and oranges.

Dude, why you speak in third person? Even Ded said that Reptile is not necessarily the worst character in MK2 overall, so there is no "we" here. And speaking of which, as I've said, Reptile is 2nd worst character in the game at worst case scenario, as at the very least we have Baraka, and I'm yet to find any new or recent info or footage of him like I did with Reptile. Heck even in the link that to the very old thread that Ded gave me earlier, it's agreed by the majority of people that at least Baraka is worst then Reptile, if not even Reptile sharing the tier with not only Baraka, but Sub-Zero and even Cage as well. Konqrr even said that the Reptile-Baraka MU is 6-4 in favor of Reptile.

https://testyourmight.com/threads/mkii-tier-list-discussion.9855/

And even the tier list in the MKU site indicates that Baraka is lower then Reptile

http://ultimatemk.com/cguide.php?game=mkarcade

And once again, all of the info I got from the recent footage from the past year I've seen, clearly show Reptile in a pretty good spot. So what exactly "old reasoning" are you talking about?

And yes the Kabal example indicates a different type of work, but my point still stands. Because regardless if that work comes from technicality or limitations, that creates a barrier that you need to go through in order to make the character work. And yes every technical character can be viable while not every limited character can, so there are some characters that can't pass the barrier, but what I've seen both from old and new info, Reptile can pass the barriers if he does that properly, even against Jax or Mileena.

 

[DanCock]

reptile is solid in MK2. id place him in the 8th best spot. his main issue is he struggles hard vs the high tiers, more then any other character.

 

[MKF30]

People put Mileena in UMK3 higher only because of net play. The game is really, really different when played online. On high level, it's a frame based input game, that suffers enormously with everything above 5ms - literally. Same goes with other frame-based characters imo - like Lao, Reptile, etc. While characters, who do not require such precise timing to be played effectively, like Kitana and Ermac, are considered better.

This Sounds like most mks online lol. If only we got mk 2, umk3 and mk 4 online.

 

[ded]

The main problem with classic mk games is that they are absolutely frame based, not buffer/move like classic Street Fighter for example. MK4 requires even more precise timing than UMK3, so the netcode should be optimized at max, which I doubt WB will invest into. We all know what happened with MKII PSN, UMK3 XBLA and MKAK...

I would prefer to have just the arcade version emulated properly some day instead.

 

[james1926]

Just mentioning, I remember seeing Baraka at 6th place on the tier lists once. I have never seen a list where Reptile is not last.

 

[Juggs]

I agree with everything except Reptile and Lao's placement

Yeah I admittedly have them fairly low. Reptile for sure should be higher, but not sure about Kung Lao. He definitely isn’t a bad character, but at the highest levels of UMK3, he isn’t nearly as effective as he used to be imo. Online he is a much better character, which a lot of characters who offline aren’t that great, become much better online as ded explained. Offline though, you’re rarely going to see an opponent jumping when it isn’t a safe jump, especially in this match up. And interrupting KJ/GJ pressure with a spin from KL isn’t going to happen offline unless the player isn’t executing the KJ’s properly. He also has some pretty bad MU’s and I believe he’s the easiest character in the game to successfully relaunch.