Question re: downplay

[Hellbringer]

Hey liu kang is really good, he might be the best in the game!

Liu kang upplayers army: Omg hes broke stop doowwwnplaying!!

 

[lordlosh]

Okay here we go.
I think we all know who A Foxy Grampa is and how he have been in MK11, he is a constant top 8 in almost all(if not all) tournaments so far, and the guy is super skilled.
Here is a video in the recent tournament, against unknown(atleast to me) new born Kang player.

Match start at 40:06.
That Liu Kang player is nothing special, and its using F4, throws and 1,2 99,99% of the time.
Foxy tried with Sub Zero, Kung Lao and with Shang Tsung. And won only 1 game, cause that guy wasnt that good with his zoning.
Atleast in my mind Foxy was doing better, yet he find himself losing the match. He was leading in a lot of rounds, but end up losing, whats usually happen against Kang players.
And what to say about Kang 1-2 wakeup, its ridiculous strong. A move that i always forget to mention in his arsenal.
There was a guy not long ago, who was saying bicycle kick KB is not easy to get, because you have to amplify 3 moves.
Guess what in the first round this dude land his bicycle kick KB, yeah that move is hard to set up.

Everything that Kang have is better and he is always going to connect with his fast string, that no one could challenge.
Even if you outplay him, he is going to beat you with his raw high damage moves. Uphill battle from the very begining. And this is in the pro level ....

 

[Hellbringer]

That Liu Kang player is nothing special, and its using F4, throws and 1,2 99,99% of the time.

Your calling other ppl who make top 8 nothing special or they get carried by their character, but who are you to make those insults? Where are your top 8 placements?
All you do i make long ass posts on tym to cry for nerfs and say that respected top players only win cause they get carried by their character.


@HeroesNZ

 

[lordlosh]

Firstable this is entirely untrue.
But only mad man will compare @HeroesNZ and A Foxy Grampa. Same goes for Rewind and SonicFox in any MK games.
Their level is simply not the same.
And you probably heard @HeroesNZ for the first time. Or you can prove me wrong by saying in what tournaments he participate and his placing ...

 

[Hellbringer]

Firstable this is entirely untrue.
But only mad man will compare @HeroesNZ and A Foxy Grampa. Same goes for Rewind and SonicFox in any MK games.
Their level is simply not the same.
And you probably heard @HeroesNZ for the first time. Or you can prove me wrong by saying in what tournaments he participate and his placing ...

So first you say its untrue but then you continue to disrespect them in the same sentence. Let me ask you again cause it seemed you missed my question, where are your tournament results? Where are your top 8's? Who are you to call out ppl when you dont even go to tournaments and are way below their skill level?

Imagine making top 8 in a tournament then get told "well, you only got top 8 because of your broke character, who are you anyway?" smfh

 

[lordlosh]

Did anything in my entire post history i said any person won ONLY because they use Broken character and they have zero skill that helps them achieve that? Never said that. But at high level even small details make huge difference.
And in Liu Kang case the details is big. The difference to the rest of the cast is huge.

Though there is a level between pro players as well. I think there is like 10 or 12 people that are level of their own, and there is 3-4 people in that top 10-12 list that are a bit highest level than the rest.
This could change in time of course.
Of course a lower ranked player could shock and beat top players. And there is a lot of circumstances for that.
But i dont believe in that s* that suddenly all Kang players improved that much and start annihilate the whole scene.
You like it or not, right now the fight against Kang at any level is uphill battle.
And i dont need to be top 8 placer ot even participate in any tournament to vioice my opinion.

 

[GLoRToR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's totally possible I'm misremembering, but is the level of downplay among Liu Kang players far more extreme than players of other top tiers from last season? Maybe it just appears that way because there's a bigger Liu player base and so they seem more vocal -- but I swear conversations about Sonya, Geras, Erron, et al. at least made it past the "can we agree your character needs to be nerfed" starting point, which is where the hangup seems to lie with Kang mains.

There's no discussion to even be had since they seem unwilling to even acknowledge their character is too strong to begin with, rather than accepting it and moving forward with proposed changes they feel are relevant but not crippling to their character.

Thoughts?

This wouldn't even be an issue if NRS didn't have zero sense of game balance.
Look at better games and how they patch.

 

[Inzzane_79]

Another topic about Liu Kang is donwplayed and op/broken? Don´t we have enough already?

Can´t wait to see the X amount of Topics that will come after the next patch and someone else is supposed to be op and broken……..smh

All that Energy that got put into posting these things would be better put into learning the matchup and/or finding tech to counter what gets you. but that would require playing the game and not hanging out on a forum whining which some people seem to like more for whatever reason

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Wut

Maxter? WinterWarz?

And everybody was playing Kabal after a while.. Perfect Legend, CD Jr., Forever King, everybody. The top 8’s became 90% Kabal Cyrax Sonya and Kenshi.

Many played, yes. I mentioned DJT, cause I was referring to EVO. I could list really most of them man, like EricWarda, Cerbo and so on. My argument is not strictly speaking who played the characters, but what do both of them require. If I recall, almost perfect infinite 2, NDC was able to perform REO, few times.

Basically the level of commitment is nowhere near LK, when it comes to Kabal or Cyrax.

 

[GLoRToR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's totally possible I'm misremembering, but is the level of downplay among Liu Kang players far more extreme than players of other top tiers from last season? Maybe it just appears that way because there's a bigger Liu player base and so they seem more vocal -- but I swear conversations about Sonya, Geras, Erron, et al. at least made it past the "can we agree your character needs to be nerfed" starting point, which is where the hangup seems to lie with Kang mains.

There's no discussion to even be had since they seem unwilling to even acknowledge their character is too strong to begin with, rather than accepting it and moving forward with proposed changes they feel are relevant but not crippling to their character.

Thoughts?

There are many forms of "Downplay".

The first and most disingenuous type of Downplay is when someone knows the character is busted but knows that NRS doesn't give an actual fuck about game balance so tries to be vocal enough to spare the character from getting its advancing mid 9f launcher from getting put down.

The other one is ignorance. I see a lot of people in all mediums spout absolute nonsense such as Jade has 30% - yeah if you can't react to 28f. People who never lab anything just go online, press buttons and get blown up are the biggest downplayers.

And then there is the accusation of downplaying, like when dumbasses who never lab call Kitana and Jade mains downplayers because they don't understand squat about the game.

The first form of downplay about Liu is natural. You've seen it with Black Adam, you've seen it with last patch Jason, Alien, Kobu, you name it. Busted characters always have a vocal backing of people who'll try to save broken nonsense from getting patched by talking bogus.
#whatitis
#itiswhat
#iswhatit

 

[Braindead]

I dont care about this thread I just want to agree that @HeroesNZ is a scrub and is only getting carried by Liu Kang

 

[VELL1]

If even Liu is OP, he is only OP at levels Elder God and beyond. If you lose to Liu in any levels below that - you are just not good at the game. Get better.

 

[FonicSox]

There are many forms of "Downplay".

The first and most disingenuous type of Downplay is when someone knows the character is busted but knows that NRS doesn't give an actual fuck about game balance so tries to be vocal enough to spare the character from getting its advancing mid 9f launcher from getting put down.

The other one is ignorance. I see a lot of people in all mediums spout absolute nonsense such as Jade has 30% - yeah if you can't react to 28f. People who never lab anything just go online, press buttons and get blown up are the biggest downplayers.

And then there is the accusation of downplaying, like when dumbasses who never lab call Kitana and Jade mains downplayers because they don't understand squat about the game.

The first form of downplay about Liu is natural. You've seen it with Black Adam, you've seen it with last patch Jason, Alien, Kobu, you name it. Busted characters always have a vocal backing of people who'll try to save broken nonsense from getting patched by talking bogus.
#whatitis
#itiswhat
#iswhatit

Very good post. Well said.

 

[Hellbringer]

There are many forms of "Downplay".

The first and most disingenuous type of Downplay is when someone knows the character is busted but knows that NRS doesn't give an actual fuck about game balance so tries to be vocal enough to spare the character from getting its advancing mid 9f launcher from getting put down.

The other one is ignorance. I see a lot of people in all mediums spout absolute nonsense such as Jade has 30% - yeah if you can't react to 28f. People who never lab anything just go online, press buttons and get blown up are the biggest downplayers.

And then there is the accusation of downplaying, like when dumbasses who never lab call Kitana and Jade mains downplayers because they don't understand squat about the game.

The first form of downplay about Liu is natural. You've seen it with Black Adam, you've seen it with last patch Jason, Alien, Kobu, you name it. Busted characters always have a vocal backing of people who'll try to save broken nonsense from getting patched by talking bogus.
#whatitis
#itiswhat
#iswhatit

Absolutely hilarious coming from a guy who mentions in every post he makes how bad his character is.

 

[HeroesNZ]

I used to be stuck at Kombatant in Kombat League! Then I picked up Liu! Now I can make it all the way to Champion rank!! This character changed my life!!!

I can't believe I even got the chance to fight my hero A F0xy Grampa!! I thought I was going to go 0-2 but Liu Kang said not today HeroesNZ! Not today!!

 

[FonicSox]

I used to be stuck at Kombatant in Kombat League! Then I picked up Liu! Now I can make it all the way to Champion rank!! This character changed my life!!!

I can't believe I even got the chance to fight my hero A F0xy Grampa!! I thought I was going to go 0-2 but Liu Kang said not today HeroesNZ! Not today!!

Filthy Liu Kang! You're not supposed to go off-script like this. What did we rehearse?

 

[STRYKIE]

Okay here we go.
I think we all know who A Foxy Grampa is and how he have been in MK11, he is a constant top 8 in almost all(if not all) tournaments so far, and the guy is super skilled.
Here is a video in the recent tournament, against unknown(atleast to me) new born Kang player.

Match start at 40:06.
That Liu Kang player is nothing special, and its using F4, throws and 1,2 99,99% of the time.
Foxy tried with Sub Zero, Kung Lao and with Shang Tsung. And won only 1 game, cause that guy wasnt that good with his zoning.
Atleast in my mind Foxy was doing better, yet he find himself losing the match. He was leading in a lot of rounds, but end up losing, whats usually happen against Kang players.
And what to say about Kang 1-2 wakeup, its ridiculous strong. A move that i always forget to mention in his arsenal.
There was a guy not long ago, who was saying bicycle kick KB is not easy to get, because you have to amplify 3 moves.
Guess what in the first round this dude land his bicycle kick KB, yeah that move is hard to set up.

Everything that Kang have is better and he is always going to connect with his fast string, that no one could challenge.
Even if you outplay him, he is going to beat you with his raw high damage moves. Uphill battle from the very begining. And this is in the pro level ....

Stop being an armchair critic.

 

[trufenix]

Many played, yes. I mentioned DJT, cause I was referring to EVO. I could list really most of them man, like EricWarda, Cerbo and so on. My argument is not strictly speaking who played the characters, but what do both of them require. If I recall, almost perfect infinite 2, NDC was able to perform REO, few times.

Basically the level of commitment is nowhere near LK, when it comes to Kabal or Cyrax.

You didn't need to be "perfect" with those characters. You are grossly oversimplifying how absolutely FUCKED the top tiers were compared to the low tiers.

 

[Iustinus]

I feel like if you adjust his projectiles a little bit, he's fine

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Looks like LordLosh got popular from his salt of liu kangaroo:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173590432166621184

Its also kind of funny he has been arguing with high level players for months and calling top players carried by Kang.
Just from what I've seen STB Hellbringer and HeroesNZ.

 

[FonicSox]

Looks like LordLosh got popular from his salt of liu kangaroo:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173590432166621184

Its also kind of funny he has been arguing with high level players for months and calling top players carried by Kang.
Just from what I've seen STB Hellbringer and HeroesNZ.

I think the people complaining about Liu Kang need to find a healthy middle ground with it, else they're just going to come off as salty.

It's silly to imply the only reason players like Ninjakilla and Rewind are doing anything at all is because of their character choice. It's also silly to think Rewind suddenly dumpstering foxy 6 straight rounds, convincingly eradicating Dragon and beating SonicFox twice in the same tournament to take the gold is nothing more than him miraculously leveling up a massive degree literally overnight, rather than his performance perfectly coinciding with the changes rendering Liu Kang the best character in the game (by a lot) having a big hand in it.

Mustard himself, whose quote is cited in that picture, calls Liu Kang a "problem" in his most recent tier list.

Rewind is more or less a potential mainstay for top 8s regardless, but Liu Kang's power spike clearly gave him the additional "oomph" needed to go the extra mile.

I'm not familiar with HeroesNZ and so for all I know the dude is an absolute monster, but if I were to take a guess it'd be that he is not as good of a player as f0xy and putting him in the rapid fire Liu Kang guessing blender overcompensated for any disparity there may be between f0xy's fundamentals and his own.

To summarize; it is ignorant both to imply Liu Kang is literally hard carrying bad players as well as that he isn't carrying them to any extent, IMO. The nature of these conversations is too often one extreme or the other. It's not all black and white. There's merit to both sides.

 

[lordlosh]

Looks like LordLosh got popular from his salt of liu kangaroo:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173590432166621184

Its also kind of funny he has been arguing with high level players for months and calling top players carried by Kang.
Just from what I've seen STB Hellbringer and HeroesNZ.

Like i care much. This dude obviously seeking attention. He will have his 5 minutes glory on tweeter.
Tho my point stands. Throw, F4, some zoning after succesfull combo, thanks to the ridiculous pushback of every Kang move, 1-2 from wakeup and ofc the legendary Kang FB.
This was his whole gameplay. And due to totally broken character he beat way better player in A Foxy Grampa, who used 3 different character.

 

[Down 2]

Liu Kang is being seriously up-played right now. Ever since Sonic put him as top 1 everyone has been clamoring for nerfs. He's been untouched since day 1. People think he's game-breakingly good now? Gimme a break.

This is what pisses me off I've had extreme difficulty against this character since day 1 and when I complained about him on forums and at my locals people would just blow it off or tell me to git gud and lab, even though I have and know most of my options against him. Now since the latest patch everyone wants to say how broken he is even though he's been basically the same since the beginning..?

 

[craftycheese]

It's almost as if fighting game balance is a goal to strive for even if not a realistically obtainable end result or something.

And there's nothing wrong with that. What it feels like we're doing though is taking whatever the popular character in KL is or top tier is and overreacting and saying they need to be nerfed. We kinda did that with scorpion. I'm not saying that Liu is or is not a problem. I personally don't think he's broken or unfair, he's a just a very strong character and you have to play with minimal mistakes to beat him. I lose to him all the time but I don't feel like it's the character at this point because I know what to do and how to counter and the opponent adjusts and counters my counter and I do not adjust. I would prefer some hitbox stuff to get taken care of first, but that's been something we've been wanting since mk9, so it's unlikely that'll ever happen.

I think we need to be careful about what/how we're going about getting changes. Someone before this post had a good point about what I'm trying to say

 

[FonicSox]

This is what pisses me off I've had extreme difficulty against this character since day 1 and when I complained about him on forums and at my locals people would just blow it off or tell me to git gud and lab, even though I have and know most of my options against him. Now since the latest patch everyone wants to say how broken he is even though he's been basically the same since the beginning..?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can rather easily point to posts in my history (as in, well before Evo) where I blather on at length what an abysmal design and problem Liu Kang is. Everyone else may have been hyperfocusing on Scorpion, but I was adamant I'd rather fight a myriad of Scorp players than Kang.

This type of rebuttal always reads like a strawman to me though. The faceless "everyone." I think what's really going on is there will always be people discontent with the current best characters, but that hardly means it's always the same people or that they're all whining for its own sake or that the complaints themselves are invalid.

For the record, I thought the only change Scorpion needed was not being able to teleport off forward jumps.