MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[DrFolmer]

JC does not lose Cetrion either. In fact it's comical how you can outzone her a lot of the time. She basicly has to resort to preemptive teleports and whatever that root move is.

I dont know about this. Have played quite a few sets with the top Cetrion on PC and it's an uphill battle. I won the first set because she underestimated Forceballs but once you get the timing right she will come out on top during trades do to it setting up frametraps with boulder into bubble. Forceballs are effective mid screen though but whiffing issues also plague this matchup IMO.

And the variation with ground pound is absolute hell. She doesnt need teleport to be a good character because of her godlike footsies and great normals. Ground Pound low profiles and trip guards. I will say Spring Cleaning is more manageable but both at troublesome. It's just my opinion though. Could also be clouded by online but it just feels like I have to take so many risks. You cant jump, she rivals your footsies, has KB's, throw supplements her gameplan etc

 

[Name v.5.0]

Better buttons, better damage.

People say Johnny out ranges Liu but they are definitely underestimating the range of f4 and its
hitbox.

His projectile might be a tad bit slower but it’s still very good and can give you trouble if he has a life lead.

He’s essentially just a better JC.

FBs whiff on raiden so Johnny is already in the doghouse from the start, Raiden also hits fairly hard.

You out zone Raiden and bait teleports. His up close game is total shit and he can’t stay safe. He has no offensive advantage over Cage. I don’t see how forceballs whiffing even matters. I don’t know about other Cage players, but I do not use them for plus frames. We should be beyond that by now.

Kang’s F4 stuff is non sense. You can punish almost everything he does. Almost ever other string that Kang uses whiffs on Johnny while he’s duck blocking. There’s zero offensive advantage. It’s just making good reads. The zoning in this MU is tit for tat...there’s nothing to suggest this being anything more than even.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

For a character that supposedly has so many even or winning matchups he is never picked.

 

[DeftMonk]

Ok, I’m going to pick 2. Please explain how Cage loses to Raiden and Liu Kang.

bro I lose to raidens a lot online purely because too laggy to punish that teleport and whiffing. But that doesnt mean its a losing matchup. The teleport is super punishable if u aren't fighting some wifi warrior. That being said, I really hate when forceballs whiff it neuters his pressure and in that particular matchup raiden's advancing mids are pretty scary. But, if you play super defense it's a rough day for raiden imo.

The Kang matchup... I don't see johnny losnig that in anyway at all. Kang has better KB and a throw KB but both have hella options to deal with each other. It's a pretty fun matchup actually imo.

 

[DrFolmer]

It's a pretty fun matchup actually imo bullshit online experience m8

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I think Kitana is 5-5

Even in neutral and "zoning", he is slightly better up close but her pokes are also good to deal with him.

Johnny makes Kitana whiff a lot too. If you block her b231 string af a far range the 3rd hit will whiff and he can d1 trough, if he stand blocks her b14 in the first hit amd low the second the third hit whiffs allowing for a full combo punish. That's her 2 main strings.

 

[heildan]

Kang matchup seems 5-5.
He's one of my favorites to play against. It's fair, all footsies and spacing based, 0 bullshits.

• Kang has almost the same flaws and difficulty to open Johnny up as we have against him.
• No overheads, crouching block all the time also f* up his moves.
• Our pokes are better, but he has better mids.
• Forceball is great against him and shuts a lot of his mid and long ranged moves, only his low fireballs trades even against 'em.

 

[heildan]

I think Kitana is 5-5

Even in neutral and "zoning", he is slightly better up close but her pokes are also good to deal with him.

Johnny makes Kitana whiff a lot too. If you block her b231 string af a far range the 3rd hit will whiff and he can d1 trough, if he stand blocks her b14 in the first hit amd low the second the third hit whiffs allowing for a full combo punish. That's her 2 main strings.

Well, maybe. I don't encounter Kitanas that often, but I'm not that sure. I've fought godlike Kitanas, couldn't do anything against her.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I think Kitana is 5-5

Even in neutral and "zoning", he is slightly better up close but her pokes are also good to deal with him.

Johnny makes Kitana whiff a lot too. If you block her b231 string af a far range the 3rd hit will whiff and he can d1 trough, if he stand blocks her b14 in the first hit amd low the second the third hit whiffs allowing for a full combo punish. That's her 2 main strings.

I really want to agree. This is one of the MUs on my MU thread that I thought was 5-5, but I was convinced to go 4-6. She definitely has really good control of the pace and has a wonderful mid to control johnny’s space. But then again...I don’t lose to her often. I can’t remember the last time I played a really good kitana. You could be right.

 

[DrFolmer]

I really want to agree. This is one of the MUs on my MU thread that I thought was 5-5, but I was convinced to go 4-6. She definitely has really good control of the pace and has a wonderful mid to control johnny’s space. But then again...I don’t lose to her often. I can’t remember the last time I played a really good kitana. You could be right.

Havent seen a good Kitana either for a long time - not since the Kitana downplay got out of hand lul. I just remember her pokes in particular being super annoying (much like Noob Saibot). She has better space control and is generally less punishable than him for comparison. Back then I would say 4-6 but maybe things changed as I leveled up

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Havent seen a good Kitana either for a long time - not since the Kitana downplay got out of hand lul. I just remember her pokes in particular being super annoying (much like Noob Saibot). She has better space control and is generally less punishable than him for comparison. Back then I would say 4-6 but maybe things changed as I leveled up

What do you mean by space control? Because in the neutral and zoning department they are pretty much even. He also has way better walkspeed.

 

[thlityoursloat]

What do you mean by space control? Because in the neutral and zoning department they are pretty much even. He also has way better walkspeed.

Her mid is better, covers more distance and gives more options.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Last 2 weeks been playing sub having fun, smiling, winning matches.
My dumbass decides to play johnny today wanted to throw my system out my window forgot how it felt to have no respect on any strings or frames

 

[M.D.]

Come on people really?

This again? Wtf is this they rearranged something in the matrix?

Cetrion even? Kang even?

Did a truck of pot explode and gassed everyone?

I thought we already covered this a bazillion times. Are you actually playing Cage against those matchups? Is your opponent by any chance AFK and you think you're winning?

There is no sane person in the world that would think Cetrion is even. As I said before and it has been discussed endlessly with shitton of proof:

No 9 frame mid character is an even matchup.
No forceball whiffing hitbox character is an even matchup.

Cage's toolset does not allow him to exist in any of those 2 cases, and when you combine them (Cassie) you'd be better off throwing yourself in a volcano from a zoo plane with a couple of cages with dingos that fall alongside you that open in mid air and the dingos start taking bites out of you in mid air while you reach the lava down below.

 

[DeftMonk]

Come on people really?

This again? Wtf is this they rearranged something in the matrix?

Cetrion even? Kang even?

Did a truck of pot explode and gassed everyone?

I thought we already covered this a bazillion times. Are you actually playing Cage against those matchups? Is your opponent by any chance AFK and you think you're winning?

There is no sane person in the world that would think Cetrion is even. As I said before and it has been discussed endlessly with shitton of proof:

No 9 frame mid character is an even matchup.
No forceball whiffing hitbox character is an even matchup.

Cage's toolset does not allow him to exist in any of those 2 cases, and when you combine them (Cassie) you'd be better off throwing yourself in a volcano from a zoo plane with a couple of cages with dingos that fall alongside you that open in mid air and the dingos start taking bites out of you in mid air while you reach the lava down below.

bro I disagree. Cage has lots of other tools. For instance vs chars with advancing attacks i often try to bait them by dashing in cancelled to 2 which is hard to whiff punish since recovery is super fast. 2 as we know from it being anti air, has hurtbox well behind its hitbox. This causes you to hit them most of the time (unless its kabal) .2 also has high hit stun and can jail into 124 for plus, 12 hit confirmed into np, 12 caged rage which combos also heavy hitstun or on block gets u a charge, or even just throw them. After you did 12 caged rage you can try to 121 next time to see if they release for a poke. Cage has lots of layers to his mind games that liu doesnt really have hence why I think it is even. People need to stop complaining and either try to lab some shit out or swap chars. I mean there is still some shit that needs looking into obviously... if forceballs whiff for the entire life of this game, whatever wouldnt surprise me. But they need to make damn well sure 244/f344 or 121 dont fuckin whiff on people.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

bro I disagree. Cage has lots of other tools. For instance vs chars with advancing attacks i often try to bait them by dashing in cancelled to 2 which is hard to whiff punish since recovery is super fast. 2 as we know from it being anti air, has hurtbox well behind its hitbox. This causes you to hit them most of the time (unless its kabal) .2 also has high hit stun and can jail into 124 for plus, 12 hit confirmed into np, 12 caged rage which combos also heavy hitstun or on block gets u a charge, or even just throw them. After you did 12 caged rage you can try to 121 next time to see if they release for a poke. Cage has lots of layers to his mind games that liu doesnt really have hence why I think it is even. People need to stop complaining and either try to lab some shit out or swap chars. I mean there is still some shit that needs looking into obviously... if forceballs whiff for the entire life of this game, whatever wouldnt surprise me. But they need to make damn well sure 244/f344 or 121 dont fuckin whiff on people.

Caged rage then 121 will not work against 9 frame characters, caged rage can also be poked out of.
I also think its funny when someone says throw out a high lol sorry no decent player respect johnny enough to stand not to mention your saying to s2 into another high lol.
Sylverrye vs vendetta can give you alittle insight into the liu cage matchup

 

[Error404]

That's it gang . Pack it up. LK has a 9 frame mid that will completely whiff over your head when you stand block the first hit. No way we're winning this match. LMAO

 

[DeftMonk]

Caged rage then 121 will not work against 9 frame characters, caged rage can also be poked out of.
I also think its funny when someone says throw out a high lol sorry no decent player respect johnny enough to stand not to mention your saying to s2 into another high lol.
Sylverrye vs vendetta can give you alittle insight into the liu cage matchup

Cage rage on hit is like +2 (if I remember right) it doesnt jail like I said standing 2 does but u still get some plus. Anyway man has tools. And if ur saying ur getting poked from just inside jump range when u standing 2...sorry bro u either never tried it or have no idea wtf im saying.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

That's it gang . Pack it up. LK has a 9 frame mid that will completely whiff over your head when you stand block the first hit. No way we're winning this match. LMAO

That’s only if he continues to finish it, which has been discussed that good lius know about the hitbox issues and won’t over commit to it.

I don’t think Johnny loses the match up as bad as M.D. is letting on but it’s definitely not even.

Lius mid makes it so you also have to respect his highs.

Maybe you guys should prove us wrong by uploading match footage.

And I don’t mean against shitty Kombat league McDonald’s WiFi F43u3 Kangs.

Actual competent liu players.

 

[Error404]

Just look at this , unbeatable , satanic,child-murdering string that is f43. Shuts us down completely . How are we ever to deal with this horror.

 

[Error404]

That’s only if he continues to finish it, which has been discussed that good lius know about the hitbox issues and won’t over commit to it.

I don’t think Johnny loses the match up as bad as M.D. is letting on but it’s definitely not even.

Lius mid makes it so you also have to respect his highs.

Maybe you guys should prove us wrong by uploading match footage.

And I don’t mean against shitty Kombat league McDonald’s WiFi F43u3 Kangs.

Actual competent liu players.

As if that will ever help.The moment I do it you'll storm in here and say he didn't know the match.You'll just keep downplaying. And most of the downplaying here isn't based on objective reality anyway. You people legit think that Kano and Dvora are bad MUs because of forceball whiffing.Because ,clearly , that's our only tool. So , no . I won't waste a single calorie of energy, trying to prove which way is up and which is down.

 

[M.D.]

I didn't say the matchups are 10-0 , i just said they are not even.

Also, LOL @ people coming here telling Cage mains to lab options and giving examples that are fake untested theory.

Do you people honestly think we are making this up? This feedback comes from countless matches against good and very good players that don't fall for stupid gimmicks like ex fireball into f4 or walkback b3 LOL.

It's been so many of these that at this point it's just funny and pathetic.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

As if that will ever help.The moment I do it you'll storm in here and say he didn't know the match.You'll just keep downplaying. And most of the downplaying here isn't based on objective reality anyway. You people legit think that Kano and Dvora are bad MUs because of forceball whiffing.Because ,clearly , that's our only tool. So , no . I won't waste a single calorie of energy, trying to prove which way is up and which is down.

Wait so your saying its a losing matchup for liu cause he whiffs a string yet johnny has even or winning matches against characters he whiffs against.
Hmm sounds kind of like a hypocrite

 

[M.D.]

Maybe we're just all bad players and everyone's winning left and right with Cage beating Cetrions, Cassies, Liu Kangs.

Wake up.

Every single Cage main including Kombat switches to other chars to all but 3 matchups.

Period.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

As if that will ever help.The moment I do it you'll storm in here and say he didn't know the match.You'll just keep downplaying. And most of the downplaying here isn't based on objective reality anyway. You people legit think that Kano and Dvora are bad MUs because of forceball whiffing.Because ,clearly , that's our only tool. So , no . I won't waste a single calorie of energy, trying to prove which way is up and which is down.

I’m not gonna do any of that.

I’ll happily eat crow.

Where’s the footage my man?

I don’t remember saying anything about Kano lol and I don’t know why you are being so cross and hostile I really wanted to see footage.