MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[Owerbart]

so finally KL started pairing me with south american players and i'm going all in on johnny. I breezed all the way to grandmaster, but that's where shit hits the fan. Anyone with any knowledge against johnny knows that you have atrocious normals and no mids. They are just going to be waiting for you crouching. F3 become useless and b3 and f4 not only are comically slow, but are also horrendous on block, and suicide on whiff. It just baffles me that a kharacter with such shit design got the green light.

at this point i don't even care about the whoffing issues. NRS has been proven to be uncapable of fixing them. If any dev reads this forums, he/she should be pointed out that f3 (or f2) needs to become a mid.

 

[DrFolmer]

Do you guys experience tighter combo execution windows against females? Coulda sworn I did my 121 ender the way I always do and it completely whiffed on Jacqui costing me the set. Ffs I hate Jacqui. Bad enough I gotta deal with the whiffing but when I finally outplay that bitch she gets away with cheap shit like that fucking hell

 

[Owerbart]

Jacqui (1st round ko) and Geras are the two braindeads that I enjoy playing against. Against Jacqui you can just lame her out. Cage has a very underrated fireball.

 

[DrFolmer]

We literally cant ec

Jacqui (1st round ko) and Geras are the two braindeads that I enjoy playing against. Against Jacqui you can just lame her out. Cage has a very underrated fireball.

You know she can just crouch block and it still whiffs right? Meaning any half decent Jacqui doesnt even have to take chip to get in. Normally I throw fireballs around f4 range to make them neutral crouch thus opening up for f44 or f4NP if I'm feeling ballsy. She can just crouch block and avoid both options altogether. So you cant really "lame her out" unless she's not aware of this somehow.

Oh and Jacqui's f3 will beat d4 a lot of the time even when we're plus due to it's low crushing properties due to her leg position. Good Jacqui's are hell, and Johnny is an even better matchup due to his otherwise very good fireball posing no threat whatsoever. It's still handy on knock down to keep her in check safely but yeah

 

[Mikemetroid]

No way

S1 is one of the better ones

flipkick is the one you use if you have a big pp

 

[Name v.5.0]

Do you guys experience tighter combo execution windows against females? Coulda sworn I did my 121 ender the way I always do and it completely whiffed on Jacqui costing me the set. Ffs I hate Jacqui. Bad enough I gotta deal with the whiffing but when I finally outplay that bitch she gets away with cheap shit like that fucking hell

Yes! After amplified nut punch you really have to let the dash go for a sec. it’s definitely tighter.

 

[Name v.5.0]

My new least favorite character to play against is Kano. In a small sample set, like Kombat League, you don't get enough time to figure out his wooga booga bullshit. On paper the character is basically dog shit, but if I guess wrong a lot, I lose. I played 2 in a row this morning and both beat me without even comboing me.

Completely safe Knife throw. D1~guess. He jumps? guess if Kano ball is coming. Kano ball came? Guess if he'll amplify late. No punish if he doesn't, hits you if you go for it. Oh and lets not forget that depending on where he hits you with Kano ball, the amplified portion may or may not hit you when you neutral duck. They almost never use 241+3 anymore because it's so easy to counter. It's just guess after guess after guess.

They never win by much either. It's generally really close, but I fucking hate having to guess so much. Annoying. How are you guys playing this MU?

 

[M.D.]

Yes! After amplified nut punch you really have to let the dash go for a sec. it’s definitely tighter.

Of course.

If you play against SubZero you could do:

<starter> -> amplified nut punch -> dash f3 -> 121 shadowkick for a SHIT load of damage for 1 bar.

O YEA? HAVE SOME FEMALE HITBOXES. The combo does not work because the 121 whiffs THROUGH the models.

 

[DrFolmer]

How are you guys playing this MU?

I relate so much to this lul. Online makes this much more unbearable than it should.

You cant do much, it's just an annoying guessing game. I'd argue Johnny is one of the few matchups where Kano can have a lot of room to do what he wants. I tend to do well when I get the lifelead early on and force him to do risky stuff

 

[Owerbart]

so after reaching demigod, i hit the wall. Its impossible to win against good players qith this kharacter. They are gonna pick the toptiers and your flaws are gonna get exposed. What hurts the most is how assy the nutpunch reset is

 

[Name v.5.0]

I relate so much to this lul. Online makes this much more unbearable than it should.

You cant do much, it's just an annoying guessing game. I'd argue Johnny is one of the few matchups where Kano can have a lot of room to do what he wants. I tend to do well when I get the lifelead early on and force him to do risky stuff

That's pretty much my game plan too. These fucking characters that get to jump for free though...

And why does Kano Ball have such weird block stun?

 

[DrFolmer]

That's pretty much my game plan too. These fucking characters that get to jump for free though...

And why does Kano Ball have such weird block stun?

He needs something since he doesnt have good strings at all lul. I mean as bad as he is for long term play, Kano is fucking top 1 in ft2 lul

 

[Owerbart]

based tasty steve supporting mk and playing with johnny

 

[FoughtDragon01]

One quick thing I only just now noticed: a close-range D4 jails into a micro dash F2. Not massive, and I still think that F3 is the better follow up in general, but the added micro dash can disguise a dash-up throw even better.

 

[Owerbart]

Did anyone catch any good johnnys on stream?

 

[Owerbart]

This is my MU chart for Johnny, btw. As you can see, until the next patch, I believe anyne playing competitively should have a pocket cage for Geras, but should use as a main someone else

 

[Owerbart]

Also to anyone that still is on the "f3 does not need to be a mid" train: liu kang, jacqui, cassie, erron and many more get their pressure from better strings that are already mids. The argument of "it would make the kharacter braindead" fails when liu has f4, hacqui has the cancels and cassie has the long ass f4

 

[Error404]

This is my MU chart for Johnny, btw. As you can see, until the next patch, I believe anyne playing competitively should have a pocket cage for Geras, but should use as a main someone else

View attachment 15474

So you really think cage looses 19 out of 25 MUs? Come on man..

 

[Name v.5.0]

This is my MU chart for Johnny, btw. As you can see, until the next patch, I believe anyne playing competitively should have a pocket cage for Geras, but should use as a main someone else

View attachment 15474

I can’t say I agree with this much. Loses to Raiden, Kang, Kollector, Dvorah, Noob, Sub, Kano? I would t consider a single one of these worse than a 5-5. Especially Kang. I get that you have your color codes, but I don’t think that’s enough explanation.

 

[Owerbart]

So you really think cage looses 19 out of 25 MUs? Come on man..

Unfortunately yes

 

[Name v.5.0]

Unfortunately yes

Ok, I’m going to pick 2. Please explain how Cage loses to Raiden and Liu Kang.

 

[Owerbart]

Sorry I wasn't more detailed, I did this in the morning.

Raiden: Ex fireballs whiff, but I've encountered overall some other strange stuff with Raiden, like 244 last hit sometimes not connecting. Raiden most of the time can just wait you ducking without blocking. Every single time F44 and B34 are reactable, and both of them leave you in negative, so even if you get in, that's it. I'd even say that Raiden play a better midrange game because he has normals with better each, as well as overall having a better damage output.

Liu Kang: Once again, your main issue in this match is your lack of mids. Kang's F43 is a broken string, but f43, if you block the first hit while standing, will whiff on Cage if he after the first hit changes to crouch. But on the other side, he still has the shaolin stance + other useful tools. If you over commit to the frame traps, he can parry his way out of it. Full screen kang has better projectiles and even though you can trade, if he hits you with the ex- fireball you are getting knocked down.

Both of those matchups are still winnable but liu and raiden have it easier than johnny

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Ok, I’m going to pick 2. Please explain how Cage loses to Raiden and Liu Kang.

Better buttons, better damage.

People say Johnny out ranges Liu but they are definitely underestimating the range of f4 and its
hitbox.

His projectile might be a tad bit slower but it’s still very good and can give you trouble if he has a life lead.

He’s essentially just a better JC.

FBs whiff on raiden so Johnny is already in the doghouse from the start, Raiden also hits fairly hard.

 

[DrFolmer]

Johnny holds his own just fine against Scorpion. Scorpion is special because he kinda lacks an intimidating super fast mid. Also, everything works on Scorpion for the most part. I would give it a 4.5 to a 5. The 4.5 could be due to Scorpion dictating the pace as well as him having obnoxious pokes that lead to shimmies even with d4 being blocked. It's more of the many options Scorpion has as opposed to Johnny. If this pushback shit gets reworked it's easily 5-5.

Noob Saibot is our favor or even. I'm inclined to say even due to him winning projectile trades, outdamages us generally as compensation for his unsafety. Johnny can if the Noob player throws out b11+3 rather close get a full combo punish with f3 and possibly micro dash f2. I feel it's tough to beat Noob's that play very safe as he is a better turtle than Johnny is and having better pokes. It's pretty even IMO

Liu Kang is even. This does not mean that Liu Kang is annoying as hell due to him requiring 0 execution, thus making him seem more consistent in a long set but a baseline comparison of tools - we dont necessarily lose this matchup. Johnny is one of the few who can rival his fireballs. He also whiffs on his shit including f43 while we do get to use forceballs on block without problems. And listen guys, I get rekt by high level Liu Kang's more than I rek them. A lot also has to do with online. It doesnt matter how much I lab the character. It doesnt matter if I can punish low fireball (also the amped) offline - everytime I take that shit to online it messes up. I get hit out of my u4 interrupts even on a read. Couple this with throw loops LK is just cheap shit online. It does not change the fact that we have aspects at which we excel in this matchup

We do not lose to Raiden. In fact being a Raiden player myself, the character dont beat anyone LUL. On the other hand, as bad as he is designed, his gameplan remains the same, thus what makes Raiden less effective is him as a character more so than it is due to character specific matchups. At the end of the day, Raiden does not have safe hitconfirms. B12 is punishable everytime.

We dont lose to Kano. He's an annoying piece of shit, but s2 whiffs on Johnny effectively making it even more of a risk if you know what you're doing. It's even. He whiffs, and we whiff.

Kollector seems even. Been playing a good Kollector a few times and he does give us a run for the money but the feeling is mutual

I wanna put Sub as even but I just feel the spacing and neutral control Thin Ice provides is a big problem for Johnny. Once you start playing people who can react to projectiles with slide - I feel it's in Sub's favor but not by a long shot. Much like Scorpion, Sub gets to dictate the pace because we dont wanna trade with iceball

 

[Error404]

JC does not lose Cetrion either. In fact it's comical how you can outzone her a lot of the time. She basicly has to resort to preemptive teleports and whatever that root move is.