The Workout and Nutrition Thread!

[Sothpaw]

You legit don't understand basics of human physiology and yet here you are trying to argue with me - now with the classic method of trying to twist my words.

Yes, fiber is technically a carbohydrate, but it's not a carbohydrate, which raises blood glucose. It has nothing to do with the carbohydrates, which your body doesn't need and which I'm talking about. This isn't about carbohydrates, but about insulin, glucose and glycogen.

And you legit don't seem to understand the difference between macronutrients and micronutrients.
Proteins and fats are the two macronutrients your body absolutely needs. Carbohydrates are not. Fiber is a micronutrients your body absolutely needs. Fiber at the time can absolutely not be compared to the macronutriental carbohydrates, since fiber is not a macronutrient.

Seriously, stop now. You have no idea what you're talking about and after all you have written, you haven't even once showed that you're willing to entertain facts, which go against your beliefs. Even though that was the very first sentence you wrote, when you called me out on stating facts.
But since this is kinda getting heated right now and I honestly really don't care about all of this all too much, I'll just chicken out of this debate and let you have the last word. Thanks for the debate.

You're all over the place and don't seem to be familiar with the concept of logical fallacies. I am not twisting your words in any way. You claimed that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly." Fiber is a carbohydrate. Therefore, you claimed that "you don't need fiber in your diet." All you have to do is admit your claim was too strong, amend the claim, and move on. Fiber is a carbohydrate, your original claim makes no reference to carbs that blood glucose, you made a blanket claim about carbohydrates. The claim you made is false, and it is dangerous because it logically follows that humans don't fiber. Just say "humans don't require a single blood glucose raising carbohydrate" or something like that, which reflects your actual beliefs and has scientific support.

"Seriously, stop now. You have no idea what you're talking about and after all you have written, you haven't even once showed that you're willing to entertain facts, which go against your beliefs. Even though that was the very first sentence you wrote, when you called me out on stating facts. But since this is kinda getting heated right now and I honestly really don't care about all of this all too much, I'll just chicken out of this debate and let you have the last word. Thanks for the debate."

The thing is, you have no idea whether or not I am willing to entertain facts which go against my beliefs. You made a logical fallacy, and you refuse to amend your claim. Until you do so, you show that you aren't committed to reason, and people who are not committed to reason are not worthy of discussion. No one is getting heated here as far as I can tell. Perhaps you are, but I'm just pointing out a logical fallacy you made. I will even throw you a bone. I originally stated that I wouldn't recommend Keto to anyone. I admit that that may have been too strong of a statement, and I am willing to research the subject more.

Now, we can progress the conversation and discuss macro/micro nutrients, if you wish. However, if you stand by the claim that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly" while maintaining that fiber is important, then I don't see a reason to continue the conversation. I'm not trying to "own" you or score points. Logical fallacies are non-negotiable though.

 

[Deleted member 59910]

It's only dubious to you, because you are not educated on that particular topic.

If someone had told me a decade ago that bulls are color-blind and don't see the color red, I would have called that dubious as well. Up until that point it was alwas sold as if bulls became aggressive, when a matador waved a red flag. But it was then found out that they're color-blind and are triggered by the waving itself.



Well, you still want to consume vitamins :-7 And vitamins are not carbohydrates itself, but are won from foods, which also contain carbohydrates. Vegans also have to take supplements to get micronutrients, which they would otherwise not get from plants alone.

So no, I don't have to modify anything. Humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly.
There was a guy, who actually didn't eat anything in over a year:
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-true-story-of-a-man-who-survived-without-any-food-for-382-days

He only took a couple of supplements like vitamins and sodium, which aid bodily functions.



You see, this is why I don't like arguing anymore with other people. I've done that a lot in the past, but the opposition absolutely never cares. I could now invest a lot of time to carefully seek out all the studies you would need to educate yourself on the topic, since you yourself don't seem to be willing to do it on your own. But chances are high that you would completely ignore everything, read absolutely nothing and stick to your opinion that humans need at least some amount of carbohydrates to function - which as I said multiple times, is simply not true.



Biology and physiology really aren't that complicated on the most basic level :-7

Apes are omnivores. They can eat carbohydrates, if they want. It doesn't mean that they have to to survive. As I said it multiple times: There is no biological / physiological need for humans to consume carbohydrates. However, there is a psychological "need" to consume them. Once you start fasting or you go full keto, you encounter the "keto flu", where you start feeling lethargic and weak. That is your body feeling the side effects of the sugar deprivation. It's the same as if a drug addict stops taking drugs. Sugar is an addiction, like it or not / believe it or not. How you want to perceive that is totally up to you, I don't care. I'm just stating facts.

If you truly are into fitness, then you have most likely heard about the idea that the body can only digest around 30-40 grams of protein within a couple of hours. Which is once again always sold as a reason to eat more small meals through out the day, if you want to build muscle. I hope that you don't believe that, because it's obviously utter nonsense sold to uneducated people in hopes they would buy supplements.

My point is that a lion kills prey, eats everything in one sitting and then might go a couple of days without any food. The same did apply for humans back in the day. They would kill something, eat as much as they had and then then potentially went days without any food. And the human body adapted to that state. The body was running on ketones for energy.
Most people, who are on keto or fast, state that they feel much more energized and alert. Many have sleepless nights, because they have so much energy. I have experienced the same. That is an evolutionary effect, since when you are in a fasted ("starvation") state your body makes you alert, so that you could hunt better.
If you are on keto, you never encounter the mid-day / afternoon slump, which you usually get after lunch - especially if you are older. Don't tell me you haven't had that. I did. But I haven't once I stopped eating carbohydrates.

I saw you embedded a youtube video about genes and now you linked a Business Inside article, and claim to be the “educated”. C’mon, man. What’s your job and degree? Do you know what ketoacidosis is? If I were you, I would link a wikipedia article about ketoacidosis, but no. I’m obligated to read real science stuff 24/7. And you have no humilty. After all the bad articles and bibliography you have selected you called our friend “uneducated” because he doubt you. If you were Lehninger (you know who Lehninger is cause you’re very educated about ketoacidosis and biochemistry), would be nice to doubt you anyway, cause your “I’m the man who knows everything” talk smells bullshit.

 

[Gerchap]

I can only speak from my personal experience, there’s is no way I couldn’t perform without carbs even low carb diet makes me super weak

If you’re an active person you need carbs as a type of fuel, yes you can get energy from proteins and good fats, avocado, nuts etc but not for someone who goes hardcore to the gym, it’s just my opinion.

 

[wsj515]

@Krankk is a crank, it is idiotic to speak in such absolutes about everything you've mentioned in this thread. Keto is just another tool in the toolbox of nutrition, far from the be-all end-all, and having more than 3 meals a day is totally fine.

Nutrition is far from a "solved" science, and varies so much person to person. I have done keto (perfectly) for extended periods of time, and it works to a point, but I find myself with less energy than other diets. I do general lifting, boxing, tennis, and BJJ, and feel better/perform better off keto. If keto works for you, awesome, but it's not some silver bullet. Any pedigreed nutritionist/sports nutritionist up to snuff will tell you the same.

 

[Sothpaw]

And you have no humilty.

Bingo. His tone is a dead giveaway to a critical thinker/someone scientifically minded.

No scientist from the National Institute of Health would make that claim that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly." There is no evidence to support that claim, and it is a logical fallacy if it is indeed true that humans function better with a proper amount of fiber.

No critical thinker would say "your opinion doesn't matter if you haven't been on the Keto diet" (paraphrasing), because that is a logical fallacy, as I demonstrated earlier in the thread.

The thing is, he may have some interesting points and tips. However, until he is willing to engage in intellectually honest discourse and amend outrageous claims, the critical thinker need not engage in further discussion.

And this is not me trying to measure dicks. I would have made similar mistakes not too long ago. I was lucky enough to be introduced to formal logic and the philosophy of science, which both help me get to the heart of a matter. I'm not particularly intelligent and am certainly not perfect. I notice myself making errors all the time. But you simply can't get away with making logical errors then moving the goal posts instead of amending original claims.

@wsj515 To get back on topic. I recently started "boxing" as part of my cardio. I've never boxed in my life, and I've just started by watching Coach Anthony videos on Youtube and tried to shadowbox using the form he demonstrates. Do you have any advice for how to do a proper boxing cardio workout? If you could keep in mind, my highest priority is keeping my knees/hips injury free so I can continue exercising until I'm basically on my death bed.

 

[GLoRToR]

Let’s see how this goes in here,

Plain and simple, post whatever you do in a form of working out and eating habits, or your life style,

Bodybuilding, CrossFit, Diets, Apps you use, Type of cardio,
What works and what doesn’t

From personal experience:
I bulk up and cut down
Off season: the goal is to put as much weight as possible, increasing the calorie intake plus 500 calories the idea is to eat more calories than the ones you use in the daily basis I put on one pound a week my biggest bulk season I put on 50 pounds in about a 10 - 12 months

Cutting: the goal is to get shredded so you have to change your daily calorie intake I start with dropping 500 calories in the daily basis and break down my macros differently the point is to burn more calories than the daily intake. I usually drop one pound a week. My best cutting season I dropped 30 pounds in about 4 months

When you hit your plateau for either bulking or cutting you need to either increase calories or decrease them. Your body responds to this changes

Cardio in cutting season. I do fasted cardio you can either google it or I can explain I just don’t want to type lol

Important thing: don’t go to extreme if you don’t understand or know your specific daily calorie intake. Lots of people get sick because they just stop eating or skipping dinner. Me? I eat like a mofucker.

Eventually I’ll post pics of some of my transformations by request only lol

So what do you do for exercise?

I have a condition which makes me indefinitely hungry unless my blood sugar is well above normal so I can choose to either feel starved or have a health hazard.
This also comes with bursts of fatigue, insomnia, indigestion at times.
I spend 3-6 hours of every single day of my line doing intensive movement such as uphill walks, jogging, running, sometimes minor weight lifting. I'm 181cm tall and weigh anywhere between 90kg and 110kg depending on the season. Season being that I live in a part of Europe where weather gets pretty bad mid-december to mid-february. During the summer I can go down as far as 85kg if I keep at it, but inevitably I'll regain weight in the winter simply because my body gains weight a multitude of times faster than it burns it.

So my workout mainly consists of intensive walks, martial arts practice and some weight lifting.
My diet is restricted not to calories but to an intake of no more than a hundred grams of carbohydrates daily, though I tend to keep my calories in the 1500-2000 range, with an occasional cap of 2500 when I do go out to have some decent food other than what little I normally eat.

 

[wsj515]

@wsj515 To get back on topic. I recently started "boxing" as part of my cardio. I've never boxed in my life, and I've just started by watching Coach Anthony videos on Youtube and tried to shadowbox using the form he demonstrates. Do you have any advice for how to do a proper boxing cardio workout? If you could keep in mind, my highest priority is keeping my knees/hips injury free so I can continue exercising until I'm basically on my death bed.

Sucks to hear but there is absolutely no replacement for going to a boxing gym and getting taught proper technique. You can try to use youtube but you'll inevitably pick up bad habits that will go uncorrected and become very hard to break. One thing that I cannot recommend enough though that you could do without going to a gym is jumping rope. Even when I'm not boxing a lot I still jump rope as one of my main sources of cardio. Can be a full body workout if you use a heavy rope, and honestly just fun doing all the various jumps and tricks. I tore my ACL in high school so am always careful with my knees, and have never had problems.

Sorry, I know that's not a great response, but even if you don't intend to go to a boxing gym for the long term, you should definitely get taught the fundamentals in person.

 

[Krankk]

I saw you embedded a youtube video about genes and now you linked a Business Inside article, and claim to be the “educated”.

Nothing I stated in this thread is wrong. But neither you nor your friend care about that, because you have already set your mind to something and it doesn't matter, if I post links to studies from the National Library of Medicine website, or blog posts and Youtube videos, where people took all of that information and simplified it for the Average Joe to ease them into the topic.

In the end of the day, you are not going to care. Why not? Due to the "backfire effect". Do you know what the backfire effect is? It's where the beliefs of a person in the face of contradictory evidence don't change, but actually get stronger. If I tell you that you are wrong and back it up with scientific facts, your brain makes it so that you ignore all of that and try to dismiss my opinion. You fall back to fallacies like the "confirmation bias". Do you know what the confirmation bias is? It's the tendency to interpret and favor information in a way, where it confirms your own preexisting beliefs. At the expense of the truth.

What’s your job and degree?

I'm a graphic designer. Surely you'll use that to dismiss everything I've said on the subject, because I'm not a scientist or a nutritionist. After all, it is literally impossible to educate yourself on certain stuff in your free time, right?

Do you know what the "Dunning-Kruger-Effect" is? It's a phenomenom, where uneducated people overestimate their own ability and underestimate the ability of others. Think about that one for a second.

Do you know what the "four stages of competence" are?

1. Unconscious incompetence
   The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.
2. Conscious incompetence
   Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, they recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.
3. Conscious competence
   The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.
4. Unconscious competence
   The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

I'm on TYM, because I would like to get into MK 11 and I want to learn how to be better at fighting games. I'm a beginner, so I don't have any fundamentals. And I'm here to learn. When someone -who seems to know more than I do- tells me something I hold that. I write it down and try to learn how to execute it. I don't laugh at that person and pretend to know it better. Because I don't know it better. Yet.
And that's how I approach life in general. If someone tells me something I don't know, then I listen. And if it interests me, I look more into it. And in this thread I haven't been told anything I didn't know yet. On the contrary. I've come across people sharing their beliefs and opinions with me. Beliefs and opinions, which go against stuff science has confirmed. Think about that.

Do you know what ketoacidosis is?

As you can see, in this post I've already asked you a couple of times if you know what certain stuff is, but at the same time I've immediately explained it, so that you know better and that other people know it as well. What you are doing on the other hand is to throw out technical terms in hopes I wouldn't respond to them and in hopes others wouldn't know what all of it is about and start questioning the legitimacy of my claims.

But yes, I do know what ketoacidosis is. And do you know that not every person has diabetis type 1?
The ketogenic diet increases the acid in your blood, since ketones make the blood more acidic. That is however not a problem for healthy people, since the body has defensive mechanisms, which regulate the acid in your blood. These mechanisms however don't work the same for type 1 diabetics. Type 1 diabetics need to inject insulin into their system, which then takes care of too much acid in the body from the increased ketone production. And the ketogenic diet is still recommended for both types of diabetics: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/keto/

And you have no humilty. cause your “I’m the man who knows everything” talk smells bullshit.

As I said. I'm new to fighting games and I'm on TYM to learn from people, who are better than me. No shit, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised, if 95% of the players here would 10-0 me with their worst characters.
I wouldn't be crying and I wouldn't be bitching. I would try to learn from each match and then in the end ask them what I did wrong and how I could improve. There is no shame in admiting that someone is better at you than something. I don't know everything. No one does.

But that doesn't negate the fact, that I'm pointing out scientific facts. Facts, which are not liked by some people in this thread, since they go against stuff they've believed so far. But as I said, I really don't care what you believe or what you don't believe.
I've said in another thread, that I don't argue anymore and usually quickly back out out of debates. I make my claims, try to sound reasonable and explain everything in full detail, as well throw out some names on how people could educate themselves even further on the topic. And if they are interested, they will do so. And more importantly, outsiders, who are reading through the debate can decide for themselves who to believe.

 

[Sothpaw]

Sucks to hear but there is absolutely no replacement for going to a boxing gym and getting taught proper technique. You can try to use youtube but you'll inevitably pick up bad habits that will go uncorrected and become very hard to break. One thing that I cannot recommend enough though that you could do without going to a gym is jumping rope. Even when I'm not boxing a lot I still jump rope as one of my main sources of cardio. Can be a full body workout if you use a heavy rope, and honestly just fun doing all the various jumps and tricks. I tore my ACL in high school so am always careful with my knees, and have never had problems.

Sorry, I know that's not a great response, but even if you don't intend to go to a boxing gym for the long term, you should definitely get taught the fundamentals in person.

No need to be sorry; that's the exact type of response I value. That's a big help. I will absolutely get into jumping rope and someday, perhaps when my kids are a bit older, I will sign up at a local boxing gym for proper instruction.

@Krankk The very first sentence of your latest post is wrong. You made several logical fallacies in this thread, which are wrong by definition and as such you said some things in this thread that are wrong. Why do you expect anyone to read the rest of your post when literally the first sentence is wrong?

And you bringing Dunning-Kruger-Effect is amusing because you are the only person in this thread who displays said effect. It's obvious to everyone else here. Just try to take some time and read through the thread and spot the statements you made that are false/too strong/etc. Spot where you are moving the goalposts. This is a great opportunity to show some growth as a thinker.

 

[ArcticTabasco]

I'd like to offer my personal diet/exercise regime:

1) Be a professional chef -> work 10 to X hours a day on your feet, on a slow day you get to drink water

2) on your day off, eat whatever the f*** you want because life is too short, exercise how you like (I like to run)

3) repeat

 

[wsj515]

Do you know what the "Dunning-Kruger-Effect" is? It's a phenomenom, where uneducated people overestimate their own ability and underestimate the ability of others. Think about that one for a second.

The irony of this is honestly painful.

 

[Sothpaw]

The irony of this is honestly painful.

I just read his post and he didn't even define the effect properly, which makes it even more painful.

 

[honeybooboo]

@Gerchap been working out for like 6 years now... 5,9' 185lbs about 11/15% bodyfat... i have a wide back but flat. Ive asked around and ive gotten mixed advice. Any tips on getting a thicker back?

 

[Krankk]

I just read his post and he didn't even define the effect properly, which makes it even more painful.

I summed it up and simplified it, since I knew that the post was going to get quite long even without me writing down every last bit that is to be known about the Dunning-Kruger-Effect.

But since you seem to prefer to read more, I welcome you to read up on dietary carbohydrates:
https://www.nap.edu/read/10490/chapter/8#299

There is all the information you need. But I already have a pretty strong guess on how this will turn out. You will look over it and then ignore it, because it's too much complicated text. Then you will either make a weird statement again, which will make me facepalm again, or you will focus on the wrong part in the text and showcase the confirmation bias in its full display again. And if the latter is the case, I will invest even more time and do the work for you and show you the exact bits and pieces, which explain why humans don't need carbohydrates for survival. Which has been my claim (based on scientific facts) from the very beginning - and something you are not willing to accept, since that would mean that you were wrong. And we can't have that, right?

 

[wsj515]

Let's all stop engaging this guy, his posts read like an antivaxxer trying to explain how their science is better than hundreds of years of practiced and peer-reviewed science.

I find it interesting that this kind of conspiracy theorist level of zealotry tends to pop up with keto in particular.

 

[Krankk]

been working out for like 6 years now... 5,9' 185lbs about 11/15% bodyfat... i have a wide back but flat. Ive asked around and ive gotten mixed advice. Any tips on getting a thicker back?

Keep in mind that people sometimes have weak muscle groups due to genetics. Like there are so many people with weak calves. My calves are insane, due to my genetics. So is my back. It's super thick. But my chest is horrible compared to the rest.

But to get the most out of it... I mean, if you have been working out for six years, you probably know a lot already... but I would say that you should give heavy compound lifts a try. Deadlifts, barbell rows, T-Bar rows. 6-10 reps = not less, not more. A thick back is all about mass first and foremost. And don't lift like a dudebro, where you take more weight than you can actually handle. Because then your biceps does too much work. Your arms need to be hooks and your back needs to do all the heavy lifting.

Also don't do a dudebro split, where you hit your back once per week. Hit your back twice per week.

 

[Sothpaw]

Let's all stop engaging this guy, his posts read like an antivaxxer trying to explain how their science is better than hundreds of years of practiced and peer-reviewed science.

I find it interesting that this kind of conspiracy theorist level of zealotry tends to pop up with keto in particular.

I have to agree. Those who abandon reason should not be engaged with until they are willing to embrace reason. It's not that I don't want to help him, but logical fallacies are akin to saying 1+1=3. He has made several such fallacies and refused to correct/amend his fallacious statements. How do you have an honest discussion with someone who insists 1+1=3?

Even with the Dunning-Kruger effect. He stated that "uneducated people... and underestimate the ability of others." However, the more salient point of the effect is those of high ability underestimate their own abilities, which is different from uneducated people "underestimating the ability of others". Now, if he can't even get something as simple as the Dunning-Kruger effect right, why on earth would we trust him on something as complex as human biology? In all likelihood he's misinterpreting studies and doesn't even realize it. Little things like this just add to the long list of errors he made during the thread, from what I can see none of which he even remotely addressed.

He doesn't understand that we are not going to listen to anything he says on the subject of the Keto diet itself when he has shown to be unable to correct his own logical fallacies, even when pointed out to him several times. Which is a shame because he might have something interesting to say, but we won't know unless he shows that he's committed to reason.

 

[Deleted member 59910]

Nothing I stated in this thread is wrong. But neither you nor your friend care about that, because you have already set your mind to something and it doesn't matter, if I post links to studies from the National Library of Medicine website, or blog posts and Youtube videos, where people took all of that information and simplified it for the Average Joe to ease them into the topic.

In the end of the day, you are not going to care. Why not? Due to the "backfire effect". Do you know what the backfire effect is? It's where the beliefs of a person in the face of contradictory evidence don't change, but actually get stronger. If I tell you that you are wrong and back it up with scientific facts, your brain makes it so that you ignore all of that and try to dismiss my opinion. You fall back to fallacies like the "confirmation bias". Do you know what the confirmation bias is? It's the tendency to interpret and favor information in a way, where it confirms your own preexisting beliefs. At the expense of the truth.



I'm a graphic designer. Surely you'll use that to dismiss everything I've said on the subject, because I'm not a scientist or a nutritionist. After all, it is literally impossible to educate yourself on certain stuff in your free time, right?

Do you know what the "Dunning-Kruger-Effect" is? It's a phenomenom, where uneducated people overestimate their own ability and underestimate the ability of others. Think about that one for a second.

Do you know what the "four stages of competence" are?



I'm on TYM, because I would like to get into MK 11 and I want to learn how to be better at fighting games. I'm a beginner, so I don't have any fundamentals. And I'm here to learn. When someone -who seems to know more than I do- tells me something I hold that. I write it down and try to learn how to execute it. I don't laugh at that person and pretend to know it better. Because I don't know it better. Yet.
And that's how I approach life in general. If someone tells me something I don't know, then I listen. And if it interests me, I look more into it. And in this thread I haven't been told anything I didn't know yet. On the contrary. I've come across people sharing their beliefs and opinions with me. Beliefs and opinions, which go against stuff science has confirmed. Think about that.



As you can see, in this post I've already asked you a couple of times if you know what certain stuff is, but at the same time I've immediately explained it, so that you know better and that other people know it as well. What you are doing on the other hand is to throw out technical terms in hopes I wouldn't respond to them and in hopes others wouldn't know what all of it is about and start questioning the legitimacy of my claims.

But yes, I do know what ketoacidosis is. And do you know that not every person has diabetis type 1?
The ketogenic diet increases the acid in your blood, since ketones make the blood more acidic. That is however not a problem for healthy people, since the body has defensive mechanisms, which regulate the acid in your blood. These mechanisms however don't work the same for type 1 diabetics. Type 1 diabetics need to inject insulin into their system, which then takes care of too much acid in the body from the increased ketone production. And the ketogenic diet is still recommended for both types of diabetics: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/keto/



As I said. I'm new to fighting games and I'm on TYM to learn from people, who are better than me. No shit, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised, if 95% of the players here would 10-0 me with their worst characters.
I wouldn't be crying and I wouldn't be bitching. I would try to learn from each match and then in the end ask them what I did wrong and how I could improve. There is no shame in admiting that someone is better at you than something. I don't know everything. No one does.

But that doesn't negate the fact, that I'm pointing out scientific facts. Facts, which are not liked by some people in this thread, since they go against stuff they've believed so far. But as I said, I really don't care what you believe or what you don't believe.
I've said in another thread, that I don't argue anymore and usually quickly back out out of debates. I make my claims, try to sound reasonable and explain everything in full detail, as well throw out some names on how people could educate themselves even further on the topic. And if they are interested, they will do so. And more importantly, outsiders, who are reading through the debate can decide for themselves who to believe.

Is a very rare condition, but ketoacidosis can be caused by ketogenic diet in healthy people. I'm not against ketogenic diet, as ketogenic diet is recommended for a lot of patients with epilepsy, and is very difficult to enter in ketoacidosis just by eating low amount of carbohydrate. Ketogenic is recommended for diabetes patients? You're right. But only in specific cases. Patients treating with SGLT-2 inhibitor can't do the ketogenic diet. Some studies have shown that lactating women can enter in ketoacidosis doing ketogenic diet too. Some people are very sensible to ketones, even with normal insulin concentration and carbohydrate intake looks necessary in these cases. You don't know who is reading your stuff. If you say "nobody needs to eat carbohydrate" you're putting these people out of the scene.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc052709
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4591635/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jdi.12330

 

[honeybooboo]

Keep in mind that people sometimes have weak muscle groups due to genetics. Like there are so many people with weak calves. My calves are insane, due to my genetics. So is my back. It's super thick. But my chest is horrible compared to the rest.

But to get the most out of it... I mean, if you have been working out for six years, you probably know a lot already... but I would say that you should give heavy compound lifts a try. Deadlifts, barbell rows, T-Bar rows. 6-10 reps = not less, not more. A thick back is all about mass first and foremost. And don't lift like a dudebro, where you take more weight than you can actually handle. Because then your biceps does too much work. Your arms need to be hooks and your back needs to do all the heavy lifting.

Also don't do a dudebro split, where you hit your back once per week. Hit your back twice per week.

At this point i think 1 of 2 things, either genetics or im just not doing my reps correctly. This might be kind of bro science but i don't think im making that mind body connection. Idk... ive been doing this routing for a while now.... i need a personal "back guy" to work out with

 

[Gerchap]

@Gerchap been working out for like 6 years now... 5,9' 185lbs about 11/15% bodyfat... i have a wide back but flat. Ive asked around and ive gotten mixed advice. Any tips on getting a thicker back?

Good weight for that height and 11/15% bodyfat is good man.

What I’ve tried for building a decent back is hitting compound exercises and in your case I would do these combinations,

DEADLIFTS, Compound movements hit more than one muscle and the more fibers you stress during an exercise the more testosterone will be released into the bloodstream and high testosterone levels help build mass

Pull ups, It’s all about the form try to stress your lats, if the mid and lower traps are holding an isometric position rather than promoting more blood flow via a contraction that’s when you hold the bar a little too close also you stress your biceps and that helps your lats do the movement. You want to stress your lats as much as you can so go a little wider than shoulder width

This one is my fav: paused pull downs, when finishibg each rep try to pause for a sec, the blood going through your last are ridiculously good lol

Rope pull: this one is deceiving because it looks so easy and you might think they don’t work as much but in my opinion they’re great because the lat fibers don't run completely vertical, nor do they run horizontal, they their pattern is a bit slanted and targeting them for isolation will require the arms to follow suit to effectively tap into this pattern. Try holding the rope like if you’re gonna do abs but do the pull down movement.
I’m my opinion these have worked for me I hipe this helps you

 

[MKF30]

I do wonder which exercises are good for the abs but without killing your neck and back. My job I pick up lots of heavy shit like 55-70 inch TV's daily it's a workout in it's own right, with all the movement I do. Used to take weight lifting back in high school, but since then I just walk, bike, do resist exercises, push ups, pull ups, rubber bands and dumbells. I remember in High School I would do the most pull ups out of anyone. We had a contest once from the coach, whoever could do the highest amount would get the highest grade for that week, then another week another exercises, so on and so forth.

I typically eat one or two meals a day(I know probably not the best idea) but with my job it's a pain since I work mid shifts.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

I've been doing keto off and on for a couple years now and it's probably the best I've ever felt. Why I don't stick with it? Sometimes I have a cheat day that turns into two days or a week, but I eventually get back on the train. The benefits of keto are many including weight loss, more energy, decreased inflammation, improved cognition, improves some auto immune disorders. Not saying it's for everybody, but it's probably the way humans are supposed to eat when done correctly which would be consuming grass fed meats, organic vegetables, nuts, eggs and pretty much whole foods that are very low in carbs. Give it a try if you're curious.

 

[Sothpaw]

I've been doing keto off and on for a couple years now and it's probably the best I've ever felt. Why I don't stick with it? Sometimes I have a cheat day that turns into two days or a week, but I eventually get back on the train. The benefits of keto are many including weight loss, more energy, decreased inflammation, improved cognition, improves some auto immune disorders. Not saying it's for everybody, but it's probably the way humans are supposed to eat when done correctly which would be consuming grass fed meats, organic vegetables, nuts, eggs and pretty much whole foods that are very low in carbs. Give it a try if you're curious.

This strikes me as a fairly reasonable comment about Keto. I would like to comment on one line though:

"It's probably the way humans are supposed to eat when done correctly."

I don't know that there is necessarily a way humans are supposed to do things. For example, we aren't necessarily "supposed" to take vaccines, but only a fool wouldn't. So it is conceivable that there is a better and more healthy diet than Keto, even if humans evolved on a Keto diet and are "supposed" to eat that way.

To clarify, this is not a critique of you or your post, just want to point out that lots of people think because something occurs in nature (humans evolved eating Keto diets, if true) it doesn't necessarily follow that we are supposed to eat that way now.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

This strikes me as a fairly reasonable comment about Keto. I would like to comment on one line though:

"It's probably the way humans are supposed to eat when done correctly."

I don't know that there is necessarily a way humans are supposed to do things. For example, we aren't necessarily "supposed" to take vaccines, but only a fool wouldn't. So it is conceivable that there is a better and more healthy diet than Keto, even if humans evolved on a Keto diet and are "supposed" to eat that way.

To clarify, this is not a critique of you or your post, just want to point out that lots of people think because something occurs in nature (humans evolved eating Keto diets, if true) it doesn't necessarily follow that we are supposed to eat that way now.

I definitely think we should be staying away from processed foods which is the majority of the American diet although people are becoming more aware of how bad it is. Vaccines are a whole other issue. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, research some information on the negative side effects of vaccines including autism.

 

[Circus]

I do wonder which exercises are good for the abs but without killing your neck and back. My job I pick up lots of heavy shit like 55-70 inch TV's daily it's a workout in it's own right, with all the movement I do. Used to take weight lifting back in high school, but since then I just walk, bike, do resist exercises, push ups, pull ups, rubber bands and dumbells. I remember in High School I would do the most pull ups out of anyone. We had a contest once from the coach, whoever could do the highest amount would get the highest grade for that week, then another week another exercises, so on and so forth.

I typically eat one or two meals a day(I know probably not the best idea) but with my job it's a pain since I work mid shifts.

I could actually help with this one! lol
It's great that you could do a good amount of pull ups too because it's similar to what I'm going to suggest.

Building a Nice 6 Pack:

While I am in good shape and have a nice core, it wasn't easy for me because my back flexibility sucks.

Hanging leg raises are the way to go. You could really play around with the range of motion you do to really hit the obliques too. Aside from that you could do side-bridges and bent-leg raises. I basically have exclusively done these exercises over the years to get the core I have today.

Something to note though, is that there is a huge misconception on building a proper 6 pack. People think all they need to do is lose weight and do a bunch of ab workouts to get the shred that they dream of, but it doesn't work that way. If you have prior muscle mass on your abdominals, sure, cutting the fat will expose your hard work, but if you don't have a bunch of muscle mass on your core already, it's not going to magically appear if you cut the weight on top.

Just like every other muscle group, you have to gain the muscle on your abs first before cutting to get the nice aesthetic look people want. This means that you have to be on a caloric-influx while eating a lot of protein and doing a ton of high intensity ab workouts to get the muscle mass added where you want it. After you feel like you've built your desired amount of ab muscle, THEN you could cut the fat on top and see the great results you've built up.

If you feel like you already have an okay amount of ab muscle under your belly fat, then get to cutting that fat and hit that cardio! If you don't though, and you believe you'd have flat stomach or a starving-man's 6pack under your fat, I'd suggest building up that muscle first. It doesn't even have to be too serious. Just eat enough to supplement your muscles while still working your core. You don't have to eat super ridiculously healthy as long as you are fueling the gains and keeping the workouts coming. You can't gain proper muscle mass while at a caloric-deficit so eating a little and doing tons of cardio will never make you gain the muscle you want.

It's not as easy as people think to get and maintain a proper 6pack. If it were easy, everyone that worked out even a bit would be rocking a 6 pack. But if it is your goal, like it was for me a few years ago, you'll definitely get there eventually if you just stay consistent on your goals and know exactly what you're doing as far as building muscle and cutting fat.

Hope this helped!