The Workout and Nutrition Thread!

[Sothpaw]

I 100% that eating too many carbs is just completely unnecessary for people who are trying to cut weight. Converting your body to get energy from fat and fatty foods instead of carbs is the way to go if you are trying to cut weight.

The thing is though, if you are trying to put on muscle mass or maintain muscle mass, the keto diet actually becomes kind of an obstacle. Carbs are pretty needed to pack on muscle. There is no doubt that your body will be making fat too, but it's kind of a necessary evil if you want to really get bigger.

I recommend keto to all my friends who just want to lose weight, but for my skinny friends who want to get bigger, I definitely don't even bother mentioning it to them. A huge mistake skinnier guys make when trying to gain muscle is that they just don't eat nearly enough in fear they'll get fat. Skinny dudes have to eat a fuck load more than they are accustomed to.

I wouldn't even recommend Keto to people trying to lose weight. I am sure some people can thrive on Keto, but most will fail to stick to it, and not everyone will feel great on a Keto diet anyway. Sure it's great if someone wants to cut a ton of weight fast, but they shouldn't be in that position in the first place. Better to get them on a sustainable routine now that they can keep forever. The hard truth is that fitness needs to be a lifestyle for everyone, every day.

There is no question that most people consume way too many carbs. And refined sugars are absolutely bad for you. But I'm not going to tell someone to stop eating fruit and sweet potatoes full stop. Limit the amount you eat, but if you don't eat any of those you're depriving yourself of some really nutritious foods.

 

[Circus]

I wouldn't even recommend Keto to people trying to lose weight.

Better to get them on a sustainable routine now that they can keep forever. The hard truth is that fitness needs to be a lifestyle for everyone, every day.

Well said man! Absolutely agree!

 

[Krankk]

But I'm not going to tell someone to stop eating fruit and sweet potatoes full stop. Limit the amount you eat, but if you don't eat any of those you're depriving yourself of some really nutritious foods.

Like for example?

There is absolutely zero biological need for the body to consume carbohydrates. And that is not even up for debate. There is just no need for humans to consume carbohydrates. The majority does it, because it's an easily accessible source of quick energy. And because potato chips taste fucking amazing.
You get all the vitamins you need from a moderate amount of veggies, if you don't want to supplement that stuff.

Now don't get me wrong... Doing keto is not easy. And like with every other way of eating, there are some disadvantages. But the advantages are also there and they are mind-boggling.
And if you haven't done keto for at least 1-2 months and haven't even read into it, then your opinion on that matter simply does not matter as much, because you haven't experienced the benefits. Your judgement is too clouded.

 

[Eldriken]

I stay in shape because of my job. I don't really have to work out at all. I walk about 40-50 miles a week and burn upwards of 10,000+ calories in that week.

I do lots of lifting throughout the day, some heavy, some not so much.

I'm not super built, but I've got a fairly lean build, six-pack abs and decent muscle tone. Who needs the gym? =P

 

[SaladPlateLover]

Casual guy. Goes to gym, lifts some weights and cardio. Drinks fortified soya milk but primarily for the vitamin D. I play Potemkin in Guilty Gear so that's where my real gains are

 

[Sothpaw]

Like for example?

There is absolutely zero biological need for the body to consume carbohydrates. And that is not even up for debate. There is just no need for humans to consume carbohydrates. The majority does it, because it's an easily accessible source of quick energy. And because potato chips taste fucking amazing.
You get all the vitamins you need from a moderate amount of veggies, if you don't want to supplement that stuff.

Now don't get me wrong... Doing keto is not easy. And like with every other way of eating, there are some disadvantages. But the advantages are also there and they are mind-boggling.
And if you haven't done keto for at least 1-2 months and haven't even read into it, then your opinion on that matter simply does not matter as much, because you haven't experienced the benefits. Your judgement is too clouded.

I am always willing to admit when I'm wrong when confronted with new evidence. You make some very strong claims though. Such as "there is absolutely zero biological need for humans to consume carbohydrates" and "you get all the vitamins you need from a moderate amount of veggies." Hearing claims like that should set off alarm bells in any critical thinker's mind.

Also your comment about someone's opinion on the matter not mattering if they haven't experienced the benefits is fallacious. Someone could have never tried Paleo yet still demonstrate that the diet causes cancer, in which case their opinion would very much matter.

At this point, I do know that at 37 I can walk around at 10% body fat while weighing 186lb at 6 feet and 0.5 inches. I do so by limiting carbs to sweet potatoes and fruits. I'm skeptical that Keto would improve me in any way, and I'm very skeptical that I could meet my nutrition needs on such a restricted diet.

Now, you could be 100% correct, I am willing to grant that. But making extremely strong claims and following up with fallacious statements isn't going to convince me.

 

[Swindle]

Let’s see how this goes in here,

Plain and simple, post whatever you do in a form of working out and eating habits, or your life style,

Bodybuilding, CrossFit, Diets, Apps you use, Type of cardio,
What works and what doesn’t

From personal experience:
I bulk up and cut down
Off season: the goal is to put as much weight as possible, increasing the calorie intake plus 500 calories the idea is to eat more calories than the ones you use in the daily basis I put on one pound a week my biggest bulk season I put on 50 pounds in about a 10 - 12 months

Cutting: the goal is to get shredded so you have to change your daily calorie intake I start with dropping 500 calories in the daily basis and break down my macros differently the point is to burn more calories than the daily intake. I usually drop one pound a week. My best cutting season I dropped 30 pounds in about 4 months

When you hit your plateau for either bulking or cutting you need to either increase calories or decrease them. Your body responds to this changes

Cardio in cutting season. I do fasted cardio you can either google it or I can explain I just don’t want to type lol

Important thing: don’t go to extreme if you don’t understand or know your specific daily calorie intake. Lots of people get sick because they just stop eating or skipping dinner. Me? I eat like a mofucker.

Eventually I’ll post pics of some of my transformations by request only lol

So what do you do for exercise?

Ahhhhh yeah. Saw the thumbnail and that explains a lot.

 

[Gerchap]

You can’t survive without Carbohydrates tho
carbohydrates are not the enemy. The cells of your body use circulating glucose to make energy at rest and during exercise. Not only your cells need carbs but your brain is entirely dependent on carbs for energy. Carbs help maintain blood glucose during exercise and restore muscle glycogen during rest and recovery from exercise.

There are two types of carbs
Complex and simple carbs. Complex are the ones any person who’s trying to gain weight should consume, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, brown rice

 

[M2Dave]

I used to think exercise and regimen are for fools until I turned 30 and began gaining lots of weight. I was never obese yet most definitely overweight at 200 LBS at 5'11''.

Two years ago, I became highly motivated and started exercising and dieting regularly for the first time in my life. I had finally realized I could no longer rely on my youth to feel and look good. I remember my very first cardio experience consisted of an exhausting and dreadful 0.3 mile run. Fast forward to now, I can run half a marathon. I usually run 30 miles a week. I can do much more, but I need lots of sleep and rest.

As far as nutrition is concerned, I am a pescatarian who follows a vegan diet. I only eat fish as meat but no other animal products, including dairy. I neither count my calories nor watch my portion sizes, but my sugar consumption is almost nonexistent. Sweets are simply unappealing to me.

I guess the only drawback is that I look a little scrawny now, according to some family members and friends. I tried lifting weights without any results. My conjecture is that I do too much cardio or that I do not consume sufficient calories. I have no idea how some of you fools gain so much muscle. I would be happy to hear how such results are achieved through natural means (because I am not at all interested in taking steroids). I know I will never look like Tremor.

 

[Sothpaw]

I guess the only drawback is that I look a little scrawny now, according to some family members and friends. I tried lifting weights without any results. My conjecture is that I do too much cardio or that I do not consume sufficient calories. I have no idea how some of you fools gain so much muscle. I would be happy to hear how such results are achieved through natural means (because I am not at all interested in taking steroids). I know I will never look like Tremor.

As far as I know, it is very important to be "strong." What I mean by that is that, especially at your age, (I'm 37 and as such am probably older than you) you should be lifting. Every muscle in your body should be worked so you prevent injury and don't put too much stress in your joints.

I honestly don't recommend running for distance, especially as we age. Way too much wear and tear on your joints. Do the sprinting workout Gerchap mentioned earlier in the thread. And spend much more time lifting, always putting form and intensity first.

As far as results are concerned, assuming you are a homo sapiens, you will see muscle growth if you eat properly and lift. There's just no avoiding that inevitable result. If you need tips, I suggest checking out Athlean-X on YouTube. Pay attention to what he says regarding proper lifting form, diet, etc. I'm not saying his words are magic and that he shits rainbows, but he's not a charlatan.

Steroids are a red herring many weak people bring up when they see someone stronger than they are. Steroids are only necessary if you want to be a professional bodybuilder, which of course no sane person aspires to be (not including natural bodybuilders, I'm just shitting on the Mr. Olympia types). The fact is, if someone is strong/muscular, they put in work to get that way, and steroids are in no way required.

 

[Icefyre]

I know the lifters in here are gonna give me shit for this, but I haven’t actually gone to the gym to lift weights in nearly a decade now because I do calisthenics.

Often I do weighted calisthenics depending on the exercise, to be fair, but it’s still very different from straight lifting weights.

I have a degenerative disc in my lower back and an injury in my wrist from back when I did lift weights, so this is partly why I started doing it, but mainly because my workout goals go beyond raw strength.

Also, I actually am one of those guys that remains skinny no matter how much muscle I gain, so I don’t benefit from trying to bulk. I say this from experience, not because I’m simply assuming it. I used to lift 250 like it was nothing and people still asked me if I weighed 120lbs “soaking wet” lol.

 

[M2Dave]

I honestly don't recommend running for distance, especially as we age. Way too much wear and tear on your joints. Do the sprinting workout Gerchap mentioned earlier in the thread. And spend much more time lifting, always putting form and intensity first.

I understand your point. I have suffered many injuries from running. Fortunately, none of the injuries were severe. I never thought such a simple locomotion as running that humans developed millions of years ago could result in such severe injuries.

Steroids are a red herring many weak people bring up when they see someone stronger than they are. Steroids are only necessary if you want to be a professional bodybuilder, which of course no sane person aspires to be (not including natural bodybuilders, I'm just shitting on the Mr. Olympia types). The fact is, if someone is strong/muscular, they put in work to get that way, and steroids are in no way required.

First of all, I do not consider myself "weak". You are inaccurately presuming there is envy. I should elaborate that I am satisfied with my current figure and have no intentions to bulk up. I was merely curious about the process. Second of all, you are gravely downplaying the use of steroids. My brother has been lifting weights for more than a decade and he can identify the "roid heads" eight out of ten times. The muscles simply appear unnaturally toned in a limited amount of time, and usually these men hide no secrets when asked.

 

[Living Corpse]

You guys just post pictures of you working out... all sweaty and stuff... flexing muscles...

 

[Gerchap]

@General M2Dave in order to get results you first need to know your daily calorie intake, then you go from there, the body would react to what you do to it and how to do it, the key is to eat well, rest and train, believe it or not that the most important of all three is Eating and resting well. If you train hard but don’t rest or eat enough then your body won’t recover from the workout


@Sothpaw is right, you need to exercise every muscle group, there’s a saying, “if you want big arms then you need to do legs”

Something that a lot of lifter do is skipping the damn legs

Heavy leg exercises rapidly boost your testosterone and growth hormone levels.
So doing legs really helps the entire Body

 

[Krankk]

I am always willing to admit when I'm wrong when confronted with new evidence. You make some very strong claims though. Such as "there is absolutely zero biological need for humans to consume carbohydrates" and "you get all the vitamins you need from a moderate amount of veggies." Hearing claims like that should set off alarm bells in any critical thinker's mind. Now, you could be 100% correct, I am willing to grant that. But making extremely strong claims and following up with fallacious statements isn't going to convince me.

That's not just some kind of a bold claim from some random guy on a fighting game board. It's a scientific fact and I actually even thought that it was common knowledge by now.

This is all "basic" human physiology, which has been discovered and recorded during many studies. You are free to use Uncle Google and look the information up, but basically it's something like this:

You eat carbohydrates. They get broken down into glucose and transported to the bloodstream. That spikes insulin, which transports the glucose to the cells of your body. That fuels you with energy. Unused glucose gets converted to glycogen, which remains in your muscle and liver. And if you have more glucose in your body than your body can store as glycogen, it gets converted to fat as a long-term source of energy.
You see that? Fat as an energy source. A lion doesn't need to consume carbohydrates to function. Neither does a human. You need protein for your muscle and you need fat for your energy. It's just that carbohydrates offer you quick energy, since glycogen is always used as the first energy source. And on a keto diet, you deprive your body of all the glycogen and then turn your body into a fat burning machine, which is why people still have plenty of energy on keto (since they fall back to their stored fat). And that's why they lose weight so quickly. They don't have any glycogen in them, so they burn fat instead.

So consuming too much carbohydrates is how people get fat. And sick!
You consume all the carbohydrates all the time and your body spikes insulin, which tries to convert all of that to energy. But in a regular western diet, you consume way too much carbohydrates way too often. Your body constantly spikes insulin and you build a resistance to insulin. Do you know what that is? That's diabetis 2. On a keto diet and with fasting, you slowly start fixing your resistance to insulin, because it doesn't get spiked as often. That's why these two methods are used to combat diabetis. And epilepsy. And some mental illnesses.

Now don't get me wrong. You can eat all of the carbohydrates you want. Fuck, while I'm writing this, I'm eating chocolate. I just like the taste. But at the same time I dislike how bad my body feels after I'm done eating it, when compared to a fasted state or a state of ketosis. Which is why I encourage people to read up on the topic and maybe become enlightened.

If you are interested in learning more about the keto diet (which pushes you away from carbohydrates) and fasting (which has great benefits for the body and mind), then check out "Dr. Jason Fung" on Youtube. That's a kidney specialist, who often uses keto and fasting in his treatment. You can also check out "Thomas DeLauer" on Youtube, who is a beefcakey Fitness Youtuber, who also does and teaches keto. You can also check out "Dr. Berg" on Youtube (who is not a real doctor though), who parrots stuff actual experts on keto and fasting have to say on the topic.

And obviously there are many studies, which explain everything I've written in much greater detail. A quick Google search should do the trick.

Long story short:
Your body can perfectly run on protein and fats alone. Carbohydrates are not needed. They're just conveniet, but at the same time they can be quite dangerous, if you overdo it with them. I would honestly recommend to anyone to do at least a low carb diet, if keto is already too much. The benefits of not having too much glycogen in your body are simply too big to ignore them.

You can’t survive without Carbohydrates tho
carbohydrates are not the enemy. The cells of your body use circulating glucose to make energy at rest and during exercise. Not only your cells need carbs but your brain is entirely dependent on carbs for energy.

1. There are many people, who have been following a carnivore diet for years. That's where you pretty much only eat meat. Those people aren't dropping dead after a couple of months, because there aren't any carbohydrates in their bodies. I too have limited carbohydrates to 20-35 grams per day for months and I'm still here. And during the time I done that, I felt amazing.

2. The stuff with the brain isn't wrong, but at the same time also not the be-all and end-all. It's just that once you deprive your body of all the glycogen, which the body would usually use for energy, it still falls back to the energy gained from ketones and uses that as its source of energy. So no, you don't turn stupid, if you don't consume any carbohydrates.

 

[Sothpaw]

First of all, I do not consider myself "weak". You are inaccurately presuming there is envy. I should elaborate that I am satisfied with my current figure and have no intentions to bulk up. I was merely curious about the process. Second of all, you are gravely downplaying the use of steroids. My brother has been lifting weights for more than a decade and he can identify the "roid heads" eight out of ten times. The muscles simply appear unnaturally toned in a limited amount of time, and usually these men hide no secrets when asked.

I wasn't referring to you, although this is the internet so I understand why you took my comment that way. The point is that many people (not necessarily you) who never train strength and have no muscle mass assume that guys with strong physiques are on steroids. When I was in high school and college tons of people accused me of using steroids because they didn't understand that being reasonably muscular and lean is a simple matter of proper nutrition and hard work in the gym.

To your second point, I didn't address the prevalence of steroid use at all. Every person in the gym could be on roids and it still wouldn't change my point that roids are not needed to build a lean, muscular body. You said you weren't interested in taking steroids and I stated that steroids are not needed for anything other than Mr. Olympia competitions. If you want to build some muscle and get stronger, steroids need never be a consideration for you.

Long story short:
Your body can perfectly run on protein and fats alone. Carbohydrates are not needed. They're just conveniet, but at the same time they can be quite dangerous, if you overdo it with them. I would honestly recommend to anyone to do at least a low carb diet, if keto is already too much. The benefits of not having too much glycogen in your body are simply too big to ignore them.

A few comments:

Your claim was "there is absolutely zero biological need for humans to consume carbohydrates". That claim strikes me as extremely dubious. Keto seems to allow for vegetables, which have carbohydrates, and I haven't seen any evidence that cutting veggies out of a diet is a good idea. I think you should modify your claim to "the body does not need nearly as many carbs as most Americans consume." That is much easier to defend and appears to have copious supporting evidence. Then we can limit our discussion to whether or not fruits and sweet potatoes are "good or bad," because I do not dispute the claim that most Americans consume way too many carbs.

A lion doesn't need to consume carbohydrates to function. Neither does a human. You need protein for your muscle and you need fat for your energy.

I really wouldn't make claims like that. A lion is of the order carnivora and we apes are of the order primates. Biology is extremely complicated and while a lion clearly thrives on only eating other animals, it does not follow that apes can as well.

Anyway I think most fit people would agree with you that too many carbs are not necessary and can indeed be very harmful. Also we can all likely agree that refined sugar has no purpose whatsoever. There is still room for discussion regarding fruits and other healthy carbs however.

 

[M2Dave]

I wasn't referring to you, although this is the internet so I understand why you took my comment that way. The point is that many people (not necessarily you) who never train strength and have no muscle mass assume that guys with strong physiques are on steroids. When I was in high school and college tons of people accused me of using steroids because they didn't understand that being reasonably muscular and lean is a simple matter of proper nutrition and hard work in the gym.

I understand how you, a man in your late teens or early 20s at that time, could be exceptionally lean. But how can a man in his late 30s or mid 40s achieve the same results without substance abuse when muscle mass and testosterone levels are on the decline? I am aware that "proper nutrition and hard work in the gym" yield results. Nonetheless, I get suspicious every time I see men who look exceptionally muscular because lots of times I am told that they are using steroids. Then when they eventually stop, their muscles become saggy because the body is unable to produce former testosterone levels.

To comment on another subject, I think lots of these diets are fads. Severe food restrictions (i.e., "no meat", "no carbs", "no sweets", etc.) may not be sustainable long-term. Every individual needs to figure out what works for him or her in the end. However, these diets may be used as guidelines, particularly by beginners. People who are attempting a fitness program for the very first time cannot perform medium to high intensity workouts of any kind so they have to eat a lot less to lose weight. Compare my initial 0.3 mile run, which burned 40 calories at most, to my current 6-8 mile run, which burns 700-800 calories. So I refuse to have food restrictions. If I want to have some damn potato chips, nobody is stopping me.

 

[Sothpaw]

I understand how you, a man in your late teens or early 20s at that time, could be exceptionally lean. But how can a man in his late 30s or mid 40s achieve the same results without substance abuse when muscle mass and testosterone levels are on the decline? I am aware that "proper nutrition and hard work in the gym" yield results. Nonetheless, I get suspicious every time I see men who look exceptionally muscular because lots of times I am told that they are using steroids. Then when they eventually stop, their muscles become saggy because the body is unable to produce former testosterone levels.

To comment on another subject, I think lots of these diets are fads. Severe food restrictions (i.e., "no meat", "no carbs", "no sweets", etc.) may not be sustainable long-term. Every individual needs to figure out what works for him or her in the end. However, these diets may be used as guidelines, particularly by beginners. People who are attempting a fitness program for the very first time cannot perform medium to high intensity workouts of any kind so they have to eat a lot less to lose weight. Compare my initial 0.3 mile run, which burned 40 calories at most, to my current 6-8 mile run, which burns 700-800 calories. So I refuse to have food restrictions. If I want to have some damn potato chips, nobody is stopping me.

OK I want to make some very clear claims and you can critique/ask follow up questions.

1. I am 37, I am 6 feet and 0.5 inches tall. I weigh ~186lbs and have ~11% body fat. That is quite lean, and I look "buff" with my shirt off because my muscles are well developed. I have two children and a demanding career; as such I only lift ~4 days per week.

2. I do not currently, nor ever have taken any "substance." I do drink a vegetable based protein shake or two each day, but those are clearly not substances.

3. I achieved my results by lifting consistently, and eating well consistently. I am not a power lifter and I don't give a shit what my big three (bench, squat, deadlift) maxes are. I am perfectly happy using resistance bands when convenient. However, I do "lift" and I could not achieve my level of fitness without consistent strength training.

4. The effects of aging are grossly overstated. The only difference between me at 37, 27 and 17 is that at 37 I need about 100 less calories per day than I needed at 27. Lifting weights actually keeps my testosterone higher than in a man my age who does not lift.

5. For what it's worth, I promise you that if you start lifting consistently and eating a well balanced diet, you will just be "better" in just about every way. You will look better, feel better, be less prone to injury, even fuck better. Hopefully I don't come across as just a random guy on the internet. I try to make very specific claims and I take care to not overstate my position. That said, of course you should research and find what woks for you.

6. I really appreciate your skeptical attitude. I wish more people applied skepticism to their thought process. That said, "proper nutrition and hard work" really do work, and I stand by that claim. The key is though, you have to be consistent. Strength training 4 days a week, while eating fast food a few times a week will not cut it. You have to be strict with both.

Regarding your "fad diet" comment, I agree.

 

[Krankk]

Your claim was "there is absolutely zero biological need for humans to consume carbohydrates". That claim strikes me as extremely dubious.

It's only dubious to you, because you are not educated on that particular topic.

If someone had told me a decade ago that bulls are color-blind and don't see the color red, I would have called that dubious as well. Up until that point it was alwas sold as if bulls became aggressive, when a matador waved a red flag. But it was then found out that they're color-blind and are triggered by the waving itself.

Keto seems to allow for vegetables, which have carbohydrates, and I haven't seen any evidence that cutting veggies out of a diet is a good idea. I think you should modify your claim to "the body does not need nearly as many carbs as most Americans consume."

Well, you still want to consume vitamins :-7 And vitamins are not carbohydrates itself, but are won from foods, which also contain carbohydrates. Vegans also have to take supplements to get micronutrients, which they would otherwise not get from plants alone.

So no, I don't have to modify anything. Humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly.
There was a guy, who actually didn't eat anything in over a year:
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-true-story-of-a-man-who-survived-without-any-food-for-382-days

He only took a couple of supplements like vitamins and sodium, which aid bodily functions.

That is much easier to defend and appears to have copious supporting evidence. Then we can limit our discussion to whether or not fruits and sweet potatoes are "good or bad," because I do not dispute the claim that most Americans consume way too many carbs.

You see, this is why I don't like arguing anymore with other people. I've done that a lot in the past, but the opposition absolutely never cares. I could now invest a lot of time to carefully seek out all the studies you would need to educate yourself on the topic, since you yourself don't seem to be willing to do it on your own. But chances are high that you would completely ignore everything, read absolutely nothing and stick to your opinion that humans need at least some amount of carbohydrates to function - which as I said multiple times, is simply not true.

I really wouldn't make claims like that. A lion is of the order carnivora and we apes are of the order primates. Biology is extremely complicated and while a lion clearly thrives on only eating other animals, it does not follow that apes can as well.

Biology and physiology really aren't that complicated on the most basic level :-7

Apes are omnivores. They can eat carbohydrates, if they want. It doesn't mean that they have to to survive. As I said it multiple times: There is no biological / physiological need for humans to consume carbohydrates. However, there is a psychological "need" to consume them. Once you start fasting or you go full keto, you encounter the "keto flu", where you start feeling lethargic and weak. That is your body feeling the side effects of the sugar deprivation. It's the same as if a drug addict stops taking drugs. Sugar is an addiction, like it or not / believe it or not. How you want to perceive that is totally up to you, I don't care. I'm just stating facts.

If you truly are into fitness, then you have most likely heard about the idea that the body can only digest around 30-40 grams of protein within a couple of hours. Which is once again always sold as a reason to eat more small meals through out the day, if you want to build muscle. I hope that you don't believe that, because it's obviously utter nonsense sold to uneducated people in hopes they would buy supplements.

My point is that a lion kills prey, eats everything in one sitting and then might go a couple of days without any food. The same did apply for humans back in the day. They would kill something, eat as much as they had and then then potentially went days without any food. And the human body adapted to that state. The body was running on ketones for energy.
Most people, who are on keto or fast, state that they feel much more energized and alert. Many have sleepless nights, because they have so much energy. I have experienced the same. That is an evolutionary effect, since when you are in a fasted ("starvation") state your body makes you alert, so that you could hunt better.
If you are on keto, you never encounter the mid-day / afternoon slump, which you usually get after lunch - especially if you are older. Don't tell me you haven't had that. I did. But I haven't once I stopped eating carbohydrates.

 

[LiangHuBBB]

I can do 10 muscle ups in a row now
and since 2 days I can hold the frontlever 3 seconds
trying to hold it for 15+ sec until next month

been doing street workout since 1+ years besides basketball and breakdance

 

[Krankk]

Nonetheless, I get suspicious every time I see men who look exceptionally muscular because lots of times I am told that they are using steroids. Then when they eventually stop, their muscles become saggy because the body is unable to produce former testosterone levels.

It's usually not that easy to tell if someone is on steroids or not, but there is still some stuff you can look out for:

1. There is only a limited amount of lean body mass each person can have. So there is a limit to how much muscle you can gain. However, there is pretty much no limit to how fat you can get. You could eat and eat and eat and you could end up at 600 lbs of pure fat. But you couldn't train and eat and train and eat and train and eat and end up at 600 lbs of pure muscle.
Professional bodybuilders are all on steroids by default. Everyone knows that. And they wouldn't be professional bodybuilders, if they didn't take steroids - because their bodies wouldn't allow them to build all the muscle they have. That physiologically simply not possible.

There are lean body mass calculators / formulas, which tell you how much weight you would have, if you were ripped out of your mind at a low, yet somewhat healthy body fat percentage. The number you get is very close to your genetic limit to lean muscle mass. Let's say you're 6 foot tall and you have shit genetics, but you make the best out of it and have a lean body mass of 180 lbs. You won't get all too much above that. Depending on your genetics and your body fat percentage you might, but it won't change by too much. But... If you have the same person standing in front of you, even more ripped and he weighs in at 200 lbs all of a sudden, without having more fat? That's the effect of steroids. Steroids allow your body to build more muscle mass. So all the pro bodybuilders on stage would look even close to what they look, if they didn't take any steroids.

So the first way is to look at how much that person weighs with their set height and their current fat percentage. If it's vastly out of the norm, it's steroids. If it's slightly out of the norm, it might very well be freak genetics.

2. A second way of of telling steroid users apart from natural lifters is how they look at a very low body fat percentage. Have you ever seen natural bodybuilders, who compete? They look like shit, since they're so depleted of nutrition and food. All of their fullness and roundness is gone at that point.
However, if you have a "natural" bodybuilder on competition day, who doesn't have flat muscle, but still has his round 3D look, while ripped and shredded out of his mind? Steroids.

3. Steroids usually transform certain body parts more than others. Mainly the traps and shoulders. If someone has traps from hell, which look like two sculpted balls... yeah, you can start getting suspicious. Traps react like crazy to steroids.
A good example would be the MMA fighter Vitor Belfort. Look at the difference on his traps, when he was taking TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) after after wards:

 

[Sothpaw]

It's only dubious to you, because you are not educated on that particular topic.

If someone had told me a decade ago that bulls are color-blind and don't see the color red, I would have called that dubious as well. Up until that point it was alwas sold as if bulls became aggressive, when a matador waved a red flag. But it was then found out that they're color-blind and are triggered by the waving itself.



Well, you still want to consume vitamins :-7 And vitamins are not carbohydrates itself, but are won from foods, which also contain carbohydrates. Vegans also have to take supplements to get micronutrients, which they would otherwise not get from plants alone.

So no, I don't have to modify anything. Humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly.
There was a guy, who actually didn't eat anything in over a year:
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-true-story-of-a-man-who-survived-without-any-food-for-382-days

He only took a couple of supplements like vitamins and sodium, which aid bodily functions.



You see, this is why I don't like arguing anymore with other people. I've done that a lot in the past, but the opposition absolutely never cares. I could now invest a lot of time to carefully seek out all the studies you would need to educate yourself on the topic, since you yourself don't seem to be willing to do it on your own. But chances are high that you would completely ignore everything, read absolutely nothing and stick to your opinion that humans need at least some amount of carbohydrates to function - which as I said multiple times, is simply not true.



Biology and physiology really aren't that complicated on the most basic level :-7

Apes are omnivores. They can eat carbohydrates, if they want. It doesn't mean that they have to to survive. As I said it multiple times: There is no biological / physiological need for humans to consume carbohydrates. However, there is a psychological "need" to consume them. Once you start fasting or you go full keto, you encounter the "keto flu", where you start feeling lethargic and weak. That is your body feeling the side effects of the sugar deprivation. It's the same as if a drug addict stops taking drugs. Sugar is an addiction, like it or not / believe it or not. How you want to perceive that is totally up to you, I don't care. I'm just stating facts.

If you truly are into fitness, then you have most likely heard about the idea that the body can only digest around 30-40 grams of protein within a couple of hours. Which is once again always sold as a reason to eat more small meals through out the day, if you want to build muscle. I hope that you don't believe that, because it's obviously utter nonsense sold to uneducated people in hopes they would buy supplements.

My point is that a lion kills prey, eats everything in one sitting and then might go a couple of days without any food. The same did apply for humans back in the day. They would kill something, eat as much as they had and then then potentially went days without any food. And the human body adapted to that state. The body was running on ketones for energy.
Most people, who are on keto or fast, state that they feel much more energized and alert. Many have sleepless nights, because they have so much energy. I have experienced the same. That is an evolutionary effect, since when you are in a fasted ("starvation") state your body makes you alert, so that you could hunt better.
If you are on keto, you never encounter the mid-day / afternoon slump, which you usually get after lunch - especially if you are older. Don't tell me you haven't had that. I did. But I haven't once I stopped eating carbohydrates.

"Humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly. There was a guy, who actually didn't eat anything in over a year"

1. You repeat the bold claim. A simple Google search yields results, from Harvard University and the UK National Health Institute, describing the benefits of healthy carbs (fibre).

2. The example of a single man eating no carbs for over a year is simply an anecdote and means nothing scientifically.

"I could now invest a lot of time to carefully seek out all the studies you would need to educate yourself on the topic, since you yourself don't seem to be willing to do it on your own. But chances are high that you would completely ignore everything, read absolutely nothing and stick to your opinion that humans need at least some amount of carbohydrates to function - which as I said multiple times, is simply not true."

You have to be very careful with how you interpret studies. Laypeople usually take a data point from a study then draw wild conclusions. Studies may show that carbohydrates are indeed not required for energy, or even to survive. However, you claim that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly" which is too strong of a conclusion to draw at this time. I would need to see a long term, double blind placebo controlled, peer reviewed study that humans who consume no fiber whatsoever have the same cancer risk, same neurological function, same mental health, etc. as those people who consume a healthy amount of fiber. Of course, no such study exists.

Also, you have to account for studies that show evidence contrary to your position, such as: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180828085922.htm

"Biology and physiology really aren't that complicated on the most basic level"

That claim is just nonsense. Biology is extremely complicated period. There is no "most basic level" when you are making a claim humans need no fiber to function properly. You had better understand human biology at a PhD level to pretend to understand the mechanisms involved. And let's be honest, neither of us do. And even if we did, I still would need to see the long term studies that I described above.

You have to be really careful when you make bold claims. You seem to be under the impression that this is all settled science at this point. That is just not the case, and it will not be for quite some time. The studies you cite don't conclude on matters such as cancer risk, etc. As such, I would not recommend that someone cut fiber out of their diet.

 

[Krankk]

Whatever man. You do you.

PS: I never said you don't need fiber in your diet. On keto you are free to eat nuts and they contain fiber. And I have stated that on keto you are free to eat a moderate amount of green, leafy vegetables, which also contain fiber, vitamins and minerals, but low carbs :-7 But as I said, you do you.

 

[Sothpaw]

Whatever man. You do you.

PS: I never said you don't need fiber in your diet. On keto you are free to eat nuts and they contain fiber :-7 But as I said, you do you.

You claimed that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly." Fiber is a carbohydrate. Therefore, you claimed that "you don't need fiber in your diet."

I really just think you need to amend your original claim that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly" and then we can have a conversation based on reason.

 

[Krankk]

You claimed that "humans don't require a single carbohydrate to function properly." Fiber is a carbohydrate. Therefore, you claimed that "you don't need fiber in your diet."

You legit don't understand basics of human physiology and yet here you are trying to argue with me - now with the classic method of trying to twist my words.

Yes, fiber is technically a carbohydrate, but it's not a carbohydrate, which raises blood glucose. It has nothing to do with the carbohydrates, which your body doesn't need and which I'm talking about. This isn't about carbohydrates, but about insulin, glucose and glycogen.

And you legit don't seem to understand the difference between macronutrients and micronutrients.
Proteins and fats are the two macronutrients your body absolutely needs. Carbohydrates are not. Fiber is a micronutrients your body absolutely needs. Fiber at the time can absolutely not be compared to the macronutriental carbohydrates, since fiber is not a macronutrient.

Seriously, stop now. You have no idea what you're talking about and after all you have written, you haven't even once showed that you're willing to entertain facts, which go against your beliefs. Even though that was the very first sentence you wrote, when you called me out on stating facts.
But since this is kinda getting heated right now and I honestly really don't care about all of this all too much, I'll just chicken out of this debate and let you have the last word. Thanks for the debate.