Variations and Counterpicking

[7horx]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult".

I believe there is a way to make such bs as counter-picking less problematic at the same time releasing variation system true potential.

In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation).

So what are the benefits?

- way, way more variations being used at tournaments
- counter-picks being less problematic
- being a character loyalist now has more sense (instead of just using the best variation of a character)
- winners also have the right to speak

Disadvantages:
- haven'f found yet

I'm curious what are your thoughts about this?

 

[Braindead]

Counter-picking isn't bullshit and doesn't need fixing.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

I like the idea. Makes a lot sense to me. Not to mention, the counterpick factor is lame. Its not a big change, but still it would change a lot, and from my life experiences, such changes are hard to apply, due to several reasons. But lets see what others have to say about it.

Thank you 7horx for brining and sharing your ideas.

 

[ismael4790]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult".

I believe there is a way to make such bs as counter-picking less problematic at the same time releasing variation system true potential.

In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation).

So what are the benefits?

- way, way more variations being used at tournaments
- counter-picks being less problematic
- being a character loyalist now has more sense (instead of just using the best variation of a character)
- winners also have the right to speak

Disadvantages:
- haven'f found yet

I'm curious what are your thoughts about this?

Interesting. Doubt this method is used though. Many people like counterpicking.

 

[Krankk]

I've watched countless tournaments and I can tell you from experience that counter-picking really isn't the issue you make it out to be. I wouldn't be able to tell you an instance, where someone made a simple variation switch during a match in the top 4 or top 8 of a tournament and then blew his opponent out of the park. Even when it comes to character switches, I would have to reeeally think about it.

Fact is that counter-picking on itself comes with the big disadvantage of you not playing the character / variation you picked first - which would logically be your strongest character. You fall back to playing secondary characters and variations hoping to have a match up advantage instead. But if you're playing against a top player, who has studied it all, it will continue to be super hard. And if that top player gets a chance to make adjustments as well, it gets even harder for the loser.

 

[leoj89]

If a tournament player has the means please pass this question around to Twitter and youtubers.
This is really interesting and I would love to see the positives and negatives.

 

[KRYS9984]

There was a similar thread made before Mortal Kombat X was released:

https://www.testyourmight.com/threads/can-we-get-a-consensus-on-character-variation-lock-rules.48559/

The player that won a game is at an advantage, so giving them the ability to switch out a variation / tools to better their chances doesn't make much sense. If you were to implement this, there would have to be a set of rules to regulate it which can potentially be confusing.

Ultimately, counter-picking is a legitimate strategy in fighting games; it's not up to the players to figure out ways to regulate hard counters but rather the developers to properly balance the game so there's no extremely lopsided match-ups.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult".

I believe there is a way to make such bs as counter-picking less problematic at the same time releasing variation system true potential.

In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation).

So what are the benefits?

- way, way more variations being used at tournaments
- counter-picks being less problematic
- being a character loyalist now has more sense (instead of just using the best variation of a character)
- winners also have the right to speak

Disadvantages:
- haven'f found yet

I'm curious what are your thoughts about this?

This is the stupidest post I've ever seen on this topic. Let's tackle this a point at a time.

"I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult"." - This is fighting games 101. It's not very effective at the highest level. People at the highest level usually aren't switching to counterpick, they're switching because they personally like the way the tools allow them to approach the MU. It doesn't inherently tilt the odds in their favor.


"In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation)." - You do realize that custom variations, if allowed in tournament, will make counter picking WORSE right? You'll literally just switch to the loadout that allows you to cancel out the other guys loadout. The game is no longer character versus character, it's move versus move where you play a game of "how can I totally erase my opponents tools from the match" which is HELLA degenerate. Allowing ability switch on win just snowballs this.

Something tells me you pick up NRS games for the first month and drop them and don't actually go to tournaments. Please stop talking.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I see posts like this and I realize the majority of TYM has no idea what game design is, or what game balance is.

 

[STB BroZki]

This is the stupidest post I've ever seen on this topic. Let's tackle this a point at a time.

"I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult"." - This is fighting games 101. It's not very effective at the highest level. People at the highest level usually aren't switching to counterpick, they're switching because they personally like the way the tools allow them to approach the MU. It doesn't inherently tilt the odds in their favor.


"In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation)." - You do realize that custom variations, if allowed in tournament, will make counter picking WORSE right? You'll literally just switch to the loadout that allows you to cancel out the other guys loadout. The game is no longer character versus character, it's move versus move where you play a game of "how can I totally erase my opponents tools from the match" which is HELLA degenerate. Allowing ability switch on win just snowballs this.

Something tells me you pick up NRS games for the first month and drop them and don't actually go to tournaments. Please stop talking.

There are nicer ways to get your point across instead of trying to act hard.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Also, with that said, counterpicking under your system would be more severe than ever. Character loyalty would be literally impossible.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

There are nicer ways to get your point across instead of trying to act hard.

I'm just trying to prevent this game from being competitively DOA because nerds want custom variations in.

 

[STB BroZki]

I'm just trying to prevent this game from being competitively DOA because nerds want custom variations in.

Doesn’t really change anything. You don’t need to be a dick.

 

[Baconlord]

I think winning a game is enough of a reward. Especially if this game ends up being first to 2.

 

[STB BroZki]

The lie AND the pre-emptive duck? Figures.

That was just salt. I paid up. I've never ducked or not paid up in a MM in my life.

Alright let me stop. I don’t want you to get all salty on here. Like I said, let me know when you want to get buried and I’ll gladly answer the call.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Alright let me stop. I don’t want you to get all salty on here. Like I said, let me know when you want to get buried and I’ll gladly answer the call.

I'll play you on Inj2 rn.

 

[STB BroZki]

I'll play you on Inj2 rn.

Don’t play it

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

This is the stupidest post I've ever seen on this topic. Let's tackle this a point at a time.

"I'd like to share with you my thoughts about making the game a better experience especially for competitive players.

Since forever a player who loses a match can switch his character or like in MKX and now in MK11 - variation. It makes an opportunity to choose a counter-pick and have an advantage over the guy who won. The game is like - "Oh ok you won, you had nice reads, great execution and now as a reward, your opponent can pick a different fighter, so your next match is going to be more difficult"." - This is fighting games 101. It's not very effective at the highest level. People at the highest level usually aren't switching to counterpick, they're switching because they personally like the way the tools allow them to approach the MU. It doesn't inherently tilt the odds in their favor.


"In my opinion the guy who got beaten still can switch his character BUT the winner should have at least a chance to somehow match his tool set and pick a different variation (if he wants ofc). The loser now has to think twice before just taking a new fighter BUT if he wants to switch only a variation, then the opponent is locked with his character and can't make any changes. All of that is still in favor of the guy who lost, he can replace 100% of his moves, specials etc while the winner something like 15% - 30% (depending on a variation)." - You do realize that custom variations, if allowed in tournament, will make counter picking WORSE right? You'll literally just switch to the loadout that allows you to cancel out the other guys loadout. The game is no longer character versus character, it's move versus move where you play a game of "how can I totally erase my opponents tools from the match" which is HELLA degenerate. Allowing ability switch on win just snowballs this.

Something tells me you pick up NRS games for the first month and drop them and don't actually go to tournaments. Please stop talking.

Look pal, I understand that you may not like what you see, but dont judge someone, who you dont know anything about - thats for one.

Now two: with kind of approach you discourage others to share what they think. Remember, that this guy is just as much fgc player, as you are. In fact, I bed you played him in MKX, you would take back what you said, about him being a "newbie". But thats not the case here.

I respect everyones opinion, regardless of my point of view. You on the other hand, no so much, and I dont like that. So as i fellow TYM and NRS enthusiast I suggest to really think about you want to say out loud. You are not at your house, school, or work. Please behave. Dont take this as offense, I am a lover, not a fighter.

Get your self a diet cocke, or whatever you like, have a drink and you will see, that there is no evil in this, nor in what I said.

<high five>

 

[7horx]

I'm just trying to prevent this game from being competitively DOA because nerds want custom variations in.

I wrote no word about custom variations. I'm ok with three of them as long as they can be used in a competitive play.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Look pal, I understand that you may not like what you see, but dont judge someone, who you dont know anything about - thats for one.

Now two: with kind of approach you discourage others to share what they think. Remember, that this guy is just as much fgc player, as you are. In fact, I bed you played him in MKX, you would take back what you said, about him being a "newbie". But thats not the case here.

I respect everyones opinion, regardless of my point of view. You on the other hand, no so much, and I dont like that. So as i fellow TYM and NRS enthusiast I suggest to really think about you want to say out loud. You are not at your house, school, or work. Please behave. Dont take this as offense, I am a lover, not a fighter.

Get your self a diet cocke, or whatever you like, have a drink and you will see, that there is no evil in this, nor in what I said.

<high five>

I'm apart of the actual NRS FGC, which isn't on this site anymore. As for what you're saying, what is the approach? It's so obvious to me what's flawed about what he said and I'm not trying to result in a game that ends up castrated and DOA like Injustice 2 was because it's hella degenerate and counterpick heavy. Nobody wants to watch, or play that. I'm not trying to be a jerk here either, but I also fail to see how this guy genuinely wrote up this post and thought it was a good idea for the game.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I wrote no word about custom variations. I'm ok with three of them as long as they can be used in a competitive play.

You want the winner to be able to switch variations, which you should know if you followed MKX, would either mean WORSE counterpicking, or the character still gets counterpicked. Most characters in MKX just lost to other characters because of the base character, variations only added to that slightly.

 

[Marlow]

I've never thought counter-picking was a problem. I like that it encourages players to learn multiple characters, and be ready to face multiple characters.

 

[Pterodactyl]

“Counter picking will be way less problematic”

Wouldn’t people just pick variations they made to specifically counteract certain play styles/character types?

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

I'm apart of the actual NRS FGC, which isn't on this site anymore

Well, let me tell you this: I would love to hear all about this, and we probably would end up shaking hands, for your "partnership", but as I said, and some others, dont be a dick... I know that here, you are invincible, just as much as Wakeup attack in MK9 with invincibility frames. But dude, come on, its not like this fellow has offended your dead mother, you know what I mean? State your point of view, without judging others, specially when you dont know them at all.

Look, I aint gonna go with you this path any longer, because at the end, nothing may change.
It is sad to see, someone being so long a part of community, acting like this.

Im done.

 

[7horx]

“Counter picking will be way less problematic”

Wouldn’t people just pick variations they made to specifically counteract certain play styles/character types?

In custom variations I think so but I'm writing about three of them. Your opponent's pick is locked as long as you switch variation only. It makes you think more about your mistakes and stuff you could improve with your character than just picking another one and relying on his tools. So choosing a character which counters your opponents variation would be impossible, he could switch to another one then.